Ok, where should we record?

[soundian]

On the PA and mixer ownership question' date=' most professional bands have a small rig to cover the gap between pub gigs and large tours with PA thrown in (together with hotels, travel, etc) by the promoter. As a small PA rig only costs a few thousand and can double as rehersal rig, it is far cheaper to buy one than to spend several hundred pounds two or three times a week just to hire one. You know, all those gigs in town halls, university canteens and army barracks. Piss-houses we used to call them![/quote']

Most venues have sound equipment and if they don't the promoter uusually provides it. Very few bands nowadays see the need for something which they'll rarely use.

Rehearsing and small gig rigs are all that bands can afford, the demand for quality in bigger venues dictates that much more money and expertise is required to get the bass-end and headroom required to deliver this to more than a hundred or so people.

[spellchecker]

that bosendorfer on the-byre.com looks beautiful. can't wait to win the lottery, it's going to be ace!

does anyone have any experience of quantum leap's symphonic orchestra software?

[Flash@TMB]

Here is a thread from the SOS forum and I want you to read it all' date=' from May 2003 to June 2004. From the announcement of the studio to its closure and with it the misguided dreams of a young man and his family. All his kit was later to appear on eBay and was sold off for a fraction of what he paid for it. It makes good reading and should be manitory for all those wishing to enter the studio-for-hire business at the demo end of things:

[url']http://sound-on-sound2.infopop.net/2/OpenTopic?q=Y&a=tpc&s=215094572&f=884099644&m=4923001037&p=1

The person who began that year-long thread, began with "Expect to see a brand new recording studio opening in central Southampton within 6 - 8 weeks. For full details, visit xwww.arby-studios.co.uk to see the amazing equipment and instruments it has to offer."

The words "amazing equipment" kind of remind me of someone else . . .

OK that took an hour and a half to read. Even kirby vaccuum cleaners - the 2nd greatest con of the 20th century after Clearasil got a mention.

[Hog]

Asking me how to mic' date=' mangle, mix and master music is like asking how does one build an ocean-going sailing boat or how does one build a house. [b']It's a very big subject! You could start by reading some of the pages on my website on how to record.

Monitors and the NS10: Simple - the NS10 was originally supposed to be a cheap bookshelf speaker from Yamaha. But then someone noticed that it sounded much clearer and crisper than any of the other standard small nearfield monitors, so it began to apear in US studios. This habit spread to the UK and soon customers began asking for the NS10 and also had them at home. It gave them a reference point.

The 'secret' of the NS10 is no secret. They are not ported and have a very light weight membrane on the little eight inch bass driver. Speakers are ported to give them an extended bass. This has the huge disadvantage of causing the speaker to have a poor response time, i.e. it takes them much longer to react to a chage in the signal. This in turn, gives them a 'muddy' sound. PA speakers get around this by using very stiff membranes and long transmission lines for the bass port. They also use masses of power - the latest JBL line-arrays use 6 kW - yes, 6,000 Watts - for each and every box.

The NS10 also had a very good tweeter, so the package became irresistable - just as long as one remembered that they had more or less no bass below 80Hz. They also peaked at around 1.1kHz, so any mixes made on them tended to pull sharp and screachy things like lead guitars and lead vocals further back or the engineer would make these elements more mollow. In this way, mixes made on the NS10 'translated' better to other systems. Some people (Mark is one!) like to use them with a sub-woofer to create a full range sound and therefore have control over all the sound right down to the sub-bass.

The fact that only a fully closed speaker has a better (i.e. faster) response time has since been used by that other studio standard, the M&K 1025 active system with sub. The M&Ks are mid-field, i.e. they throw the sound further.

There is no point using full closed speakers (also known as infinite baffles) for a PA, because they are very inefficient.

Now to the home recording debate: getting a good sound down on tape (well, hard disk) is not only a very academic subject (it involves music, technology, acousics and computer programming) but it is alos very expensive. Flash touched on the subject of how to make a sound stand out in a mix and that is a very good example of why studios are costly places to build and run. High quality real instuments stand up in a mix in a way that all commercially available samples just do not. That means that real concert grand pianos have to sit in rooms that have been designed to sound as good as possible.

(BTW, Tori Amos bangs on about Boesendorfer pianos because she is sponsored by them! But they are very good and are the best European-built hand-made piano available. Steinways are good, if you can get a hand-built version. The off-the-shelf Steinways are mass-produced and not that good. Very, very sadly, almost all the rest are cheap rip-offs banged out at rock-bottom prices in Korean and Chinese factories. The old names like Bechstein and Grotian have long since been bought up and used to sell cheap imports of poor quality boxes. I have heard good things about a marque called Estonia pianos that are built in -yes, you've guessed it! - Estonia. But I have not heard one. Fazioli are high quality Italian pianos, but loose their tuning quickly, so are unsuitable for recording.)

Can you and should you record at home? Well, as I pointed out before, Mark Knopfler has a home studio - but it cost 10 million. Dave Gillmore has a home studio and it cost just 2 million. But what about normal mortals? Well I would not do it for the same reason that I do not do my own pumbing! I am not a plumber.

(Last week I thought that I would quickly replace the immersian heater that had failed in the house, so I went to Wickes and bought a 16,99 heater and a wrench and set to work. Well, to cut a long story short, I managed to put a hole in the boiler and had to get a new one installed by a real plumber who knew what he was doing. My 16,99 immersian heater cost me 300 because I am not a plumber!)

Firstly, let's just look at the statistics: Here is a list of hits that have been recorded, mixed and mastered at home:

um . . .

err . . .

There, that was the list! It was not very long, was it?

Zip, nothing, zilch, not a sausage. Not one record in the history of mankind has been recorded, mixed and mastered at home. OK, some have been started at home and then overlayed in a proper studio. But that is all - and that is very, very few. So statistically speaking, the chances of getting a good sound at home are very very poor.

So why do people spend money on all these home recording packages? Because it says 'A Complete Recording Studio in your PC at Home' on the package. That is a bit like pretending that Microsoft Publisher is a complete printing works and will let you publish something on the scale and quality of the Sunday Times. It isn't, it doesn't and you can't.

But there is a whole industry out there geared at selling the idea that you could record the next World hit at home. Trust me on this one; if it were possible, someone would have done it.

But aren't the newspapers (and mags like Sound-on-Sound) full of stories about people having done just that? Well, yes they are - but it is all complete bollocks. It is just hype to create interest in the product and make the customer think that, by buying this CD, he or she is somehow 'kicking' the system and the major lables. In reality, it is the major lables who put out this kind of stuff to help sell their product.

Sometimes they are the same people who sell the music software - Sony for example.

But there is an ugly side to all this. So a whole bunch of kids all over the World spent billions on home recording, that ain't so bad. It's fun to do and does not make you go blind! But there is another industry that tells people that they can earn a living putting up small studios that are just home recording opperations. That is when it gets unclean.

I say unclean, because there are fewer than 50 full time commercial music studios in the UK and they are mostly struggling.

Here is a thread from the SOS forum and I want you to read it all, from May 2003 to June 2004. From the announcement of the studio to its closure and with it the misguided dreams of a young man and his family. All his kit was later to appear on eBay and was sold off for a fraction of what he paid for it. It makes good reading and should be manitory for all those wishing to enter the studio-for-hire business at the demo end of things:

http://sound-on-sound2.infopop.net/2/OpenTopic?q=Y&a=tpc&s=215094572&f=884099644&m=4923001037&p=1

The person who began that year-long thread, began with "Expect to see a brand new recording studio opening in central Southampton within 6 - 8 weeks. For full details, visit xwww.arby-studios.co.uk to see the amazing equipment and instruments it has to offer."

The words "amazing equipment" kind of remind me of someone else . . .

On the PA and mixer ownership question, most professional bands have a small rig to cover the gap between pub gigs and large tours with PA thrown in (together with hotels, travel, etc) by the promoter. As a small PA rig only costs a few thousand and can double as rehersal rig, it is far cheaper to buy one than to spend several hundred pounds two or three times a week just to hire one. You know, all those gigs in town halls, university canteens and army barracks. Piss-houses we used to call them!

A PA or live mixer is a desk designed for work on the road and in the clubs. they are divided into FOH (front of house) mixers for the main mix and monitor mixers for the band, so that every musician has his or her own mix. Studio mixers are very different, in that they have to be able to route to and from a 24 or 48 track multitrack recorder and do other things that no live mixer would ever have to do like 5.1 mixes, route to different sub-groups and have inserts on every channel, group and output. They also have to have large monitor sections so that the engineer can switch from 5.1 to stereo to mono and compare the mix on different sets of speakers and with and without subs.

___________________________________________________________________

Damn!!! I wanted to write a line or two of clarification. Now look what you people have gone and made me do!!!

I know nothing much about recording but didnt the guy called "Whitehouse" or something like that record a song in his bedroom. Im sure the song was called something like "Dont want to be your women".

[MTA]

He could have recorded in his bedroom, but at some point in the process it would pass through some Pro gear before pressing

[GraemeC]

On the PA and mixer ownership question' date=' most professional bands have a small rig to cover the gap between pub gigs and large tours with PA thrown in (together with hotels, travel, etc) by the promoter. As a small PA rig only costs a few thousand and can double as rehersal rig, it is far cheaper to buy one than to spend several hundred pounds two or three times a week just to hire one. You know, all those gigs in town halls, university canteens and army barracks. Piss-houses we used to call them!

[/quote']

I have a little experience in this field and thats all news to me, A band would have to be a very very hot prospect indeed before a single promoter would book an entire tour and pay for pa, travel and hotels. In fact its a bugger to get booking agents to take on a band (hot or not) and the cost of travel, hotels and pa comes out of the bands pocket one way or another.

Pa's are hired for tours, if the band has a bit of a rep or are newly signed, hire companies will do them a good deal in the hope of getting future work. And remember its not just a case of having a pa, you need to truck it, rig it, tear it down after the gig, and have someone twiddle the knobs in between......

[Hog]

He could have recorded in his bedroom' date=' but at some point in the process it would pass through some Pro gear before pressing [/quote']

Most probably Mark.

[The Byre]

Behind this, is the idea that it is hard to get a break in this business. That somehow agents, managers and lables are just sitting on their hands and refusing to deal with bands or acts, no matter how brilliant they might be.

That is not true!

I can think of no business where it is easier to 'make it big' than music.

BUT YOU MUST TICK ALL THE BOXES!!!

If you leave one of the boxes 'unticked' than no one will want to know you. If you can tick all the boxes, everybody will be fighting to get a piece of you. They will even fight to get you if they think that you might be capable of ticking all the boxes sometime in the future.

Here are the boxes:

You must be

1. Young

2. Good looking

3. First class musicians (all practice to a metronome, all guitarists can play any tunes without squinting at the fretboard, drummer is rock solid on the beat, etc)

4. able to sing and hit a note and project your voice (i.e. take lessons!)

5. not doing anything else. Full timers only!

6. able to write songs that people can remember and whistle or hum.

7. able to write songs with more than just one good melody line.

8. ready for long, hard twelve hour days for many years before success comes your way.

There are other boxes that need to be ticked as well, such as being easy to get along with and be prepared to do as the public-agency-promoter wants and not get ideas of stardom, but realise that it is a job like any other. But one takes that as given.

(BTW, watch out for local Inverness band The Cinematics - formerly known as Snodgrass. They did a one-day demo here and the agencies and lables were falling over themselves to get at them. They tick all the above boxes, though it might still be a few years before they break.)

[soundian]

3. First class musicians (all practice to a metronome' date=' all guitarists can play any tunes without squinting at the fretboard, drummer is rock solid on the beat, etc)

4. [b']able to sing and hit a note and project your voice (i.e. take lessons!)

I'll disagree that these qualities are a neccessity, either that or I've just caught some signed bands having some really bad days.

In general though, you are entirely correct.

[The Byre]

Some agencies/lables etc., will go for untalented peoiple or for acts with limited talent, because they know that they will fold quickly, so they never have to pay them anything.

There is the misconception that somehow getting a record deal = success. It does not.

Getting a hit record into the charts does not = success either (any more!)

Records are there nowadays to promote the band and help to tie the fan to the band-star-whatever. The marketing boys call it 'emotional proximity' and it is a very important concept in the rock-pop markets. That is why so much effort goes into fan-clubs, marketing, interviews, videos, etc.

Rock music is all about live gigging. Both from a business sence and from a musical standpoint, live gigging is everything and you have to be able to play your instruments to play live.

Hey, here's a thought: a band is only as good as the drummer!

Discuss!

[soundian]

Hey' date=' here's a thought: [b']a band is only as good as the drummer!

Discuss!

Nope, but a good band can't have a bad drummer.

No matter how good your drummer is, if the rest of the band can't sing/play and have all the stage presence of a rotting slug you're not going to have a good band.

[The Byre]

Getting a hit record into the charts does not = success either (any more!)

Let me quickly explain: A top ten single will earn the artist maybe between 10' date='000 and 50,000, depending on when it hits and what poistion it reaches etc.

A good CD that sells over a period of years can earn a good bit more. Again, it is one of those 'How long is a piece of string?' subjects.

But a medium-sized gig, say 3,000 people at the Apollo or even just 1,000 in a Corn-Exchange somewhere can earn as much. Work it out: 50% of the door at 10 each?

And if an up-and-coming band opens for a major act in front of, say 10,000, just the minimum legal performing rights (PRS) of a 50 ticket comes to about 3,000 if they get one-third of the PRS.

A headliner will get much, much more of course and this is done by selling tours for a set price. The tour is put together by a tour manager who gets together with local promotors who have to pay 50% up front to confirm the booking. PA, lights, trucking is usually paid in advance (well, some of it!) from the tour advances. This puts everything on a solid footing. The balance is paid in the form of a cashier's cheque on the night to the road manager, tour accountant, or band leader.

So if a band costs 100,000 a night, the promotor has to find 50,000 to confirm and hopes to sell 10,000 tickets at 50, so he stands to make 400,000 gross profit (but of course only if he gets to sell ALL the tickets and at full price!). The band gets 100,000 in all and will have about 50,000 in total costs for PA, lighting, trucking, hotels, road musicians, crew, etc. So the band (or perhaps just the band leader, if only one person ownes the name and rights) makes [b']50,000 on ONE NIGHT.

Compare that with record sales!

And a tour is usually about 50 to 100 gigs. You do the maths!

The above example would be for what is known as a B-listed or larger C-listed act. If you ever get to the dizzy heights of an A-listing (Missy Elliot, Shania Twain, Snoop DD) your total nightly fee should be about $1m or 500k.

(OK, this is hoplessly over-simplified, there's much more to the whole thing, but you get the idea!)

[soundian]

Let me quickly explain: A top ten single will earn the artist maybe between 10' date='000 and 50,000, depending on when it hits and what poistion it reaches etc.

A good CD that sells over a period of years can earn a good bit more. Again, it is one of those 'How long is a piece of string?' subjects.

But a medium-sized gig, say 3,000 people at the Apollo or even just 1,000 in a Corn-Exchange somewhere can earn as much. Work it out: 50% of the door at 10 each?

And if an up-and-coming band opens for a major act in front of, say 10,000, just the minimum legal performing rights (PRS) of a 50 ticket comes to about 3,000 if they get one-third of the PRS.

A headliner will get much, much more of course and this is done by selling tours for a set price. The tour is put together by a tour manager who gets together with local promotors who have to pay 50% up front to confirm the booking. PA, lights, trucking is usually paid in advance (well, some of it!) from the tour advances. This puts everything on a solid footing. The balance is paid in the form of a cashier's cheque on the night to the road manager, tour accountant, or band leader.

So if a band costs 100,000 a night, the promotor has to find 50,000 to confirm and hopes to sell 10,000 tickets at 50, so he stands to make 400,000 gross profit (but of course only if he gets to sell ALL the tickets and at full price!). The band gets 100,000 in all and will have about 50,000 in total costs for PA, lighting, trucking, hotels, road musicians, crew, etc. So the band (or perhaps just the band leader, if only one person ownes the name and rights) makes [b']50,000 on ONE NIGHT.

Compare that with record sales!

And a tour is usually about 50 to 100 gigs. You do the maths!

The above example would be for what is known as a B-listed or larger C-listed act. If you ever get to the dizzy heights of an A-listing (Missy Elliot, Shania Twain, Snoop DD) your total nightly fee should be about $1m or 500k.

(OK, this is hoplessly over-simplified, there's much more to the whole thing, but you get the idea!)

You're figures are very optimistic. You forgot VAT for a start.

Agreed that a hit single means squat as far as your bank balance goes though.

[Hog]

Did you see the programme recently about U2? It was pretty interesting, they have to play loads of US arena shows just to break even. After that, the money falls from the sky.

[The Byre]

You're figures are very optimistic. You forgot VAT for a start.

Agreed that a hit single means squat as far as your bank balance goes though.

As everybody will be VAT registered and all figures are net, nobody will give a hoot about VAT. Also much of the business takes place outside Europe and the band will have to have an off-shore holding company to do business.

As for the realism of the figures, they are exactly the way it is.

The big problem is the lack of realism in what it takes to get to that level. See the eight (was it eight? I think it was.) boxes to tick. Even a jobbing musician (i.e. a hired hand working for an A or B lister) can expect a fairly large paycheque. Sting pays his people 5,000 a week. So do most of the other A-Listers.

[Dan G]

One of the guys that works at Chem 19' date=' Ross McGowan, has his own place - Attix Recording in Glasgow. We recorded our demo their last year, 250 for 10 hours, and the results were amazing! [/quote']

No it doesn't, it sounds fucking dirt.

Granted the sound quality is acceptable, but the playing and the songs themselves sound like a band who have forgotton how to play their instruments so instead took a shit into a bin and called it "The Shettleston Sessions".

[Guest Gregor Ascension]

No it doesn't' date=' it sounds fucking dirt.

Granted the sound quality is acceptable, but the playing and the songs themselves sound like a band who have forgotton how to play their instruments so instead took a shit into a bin and called it "The Shettleston Sessions".[/quote']

ouch! tad harsh dont you think?

[Dan G]

ouch! tad harsh dont you think?

haha! Probably.

My comment actually had little to do with Mourning Star. I just think Gavin is a bell end.

[rhmckay]

Aren't the Cinematics from Dingwall?

Saw them at the T-break stage, I think it was 2004. I'd never heard of them and thought they were great. I've also found out I know somebody who was in the old band with them.

[The Byre]

Aren't the Cinematics from Dingwall?

Saw them at the T-break stage' date=' I think it was 2004. I'd never heard of them and thought they were great. I've also found out I know somebody who was in the old band with them.[/quote']

They did a one day recording with us of three songs, no editing, just a mix. They took that demo to several managers and agencies and one of them placed them with a New York record company who is now getting them gigs throughout the World as a support band for one of their headliners.

[GraemeC]

Let me quickly explain: A top ten single will earn the artist maybe between 10' date='000 and 50,000, depending on when it hits and what poistion it reaches etc.

A good CD that sells over a period of years can earn a good bit more. Again, it is one of those 'How long is a piece of string?' subjects.

But a medium-sized gig, say 3,000 people at the Apollo or even just 1,000 in a Corn-Exchange somewhere can earn as much. Work it out: 50% of the door at 10 each?

And if an up-and-coming band opens for a major act in front of, say 10,000, just the minimum legal performing rights (PRS) of a 50 ticket comes to about 3,000 if they get one-third of the PRS.

A headliner will get much, much more of course and this is done by selling tours for a set price. The tour is put together by a tour manager who gets together with local promotors who have to pay 50% up front to confirm the booking. PA, lights, trucking is usually paid in advance (well, some of it!) from the tour advances. This puts everything on a solid footing. The balance is paid in the form of a cashier's cheque on the night to the road manager, tour accountant, or band leader.

So if a band costs 100,000 a night, the promotor has to find 50,000 to confirm and hopes to sell 10,000 tickets at 50, so he stands to make 400,000 gross profit (but of course only if he gets to sell ALL the tickets and at full price!). The band gets 100,000 in all and will have about 50,000 in total costs for PA, lighting, trucking, hotels, road musicians, crew, etc. So the band (or perhaps just the band leader, if only one person ownes the name and rights) makes [b']50,000 on ONE NIGHT.

Compare that with record sales!

And a tour is usually about 50 to 100 gigs. You do the maths!

The above example would be for what is known as a B-listed or larger C-listed act. If you ever get to the dizzy heights of an A-listing (Missy Elliot, Shania Twain, Snoop DD) your total nightly fee should be about $1m or 500k.

(OK, this is hoplessly over-simplified, there's much more to the whole thing, but you get the idea!)

Having tour managed an "up and coming" act signed to a major label I would suggest that your suggested fee for an "up and coming" band is total fantasy.

Your explanation of PRS payments seems a litte suspect also, prs will pay the holder of the copyright of the music you perform a fee for every time their compositions are performed in public, its not just a share of the ticket price.

And you forgot to mention that if the "up and coming band" are lucky enough to get a high profile support they will probably have paid for the privelage and get no fee, no rider, no hotels, no nuthin....!!

G...

[Danny Doubt]

Did you see the programme recently about U2? It was pretty interesting' date=' they have to play loads of US arena shows just to break even. After that, the money falls from the sky.[/quote']

aye, they dont make any money until after the 52nd night or something like that!

[Moar1]

We are just back from recordin a four track demo, at Steve Ransomes out at Birkenhills. pretty good quality, 400 for 4 tracks, i dont no what this is in comparison to other recordins as it is the first i have ever done it but he is pretty sound and the cd is good quality!!mite b worth a try!

[The Byre]

Having tour managed an "up and coming" act signed to a major label I would suggest that your suggested fee for an "up and coming" band is total fantasy.

Your explanation of PRS payments seems a litte suspect also' date=' prs will pay the holder of the copyright of the music you perform a fee for every time their compositions are performed in public, its not just a share of the ticket price.

And you forgot to mention that if the "up and coming band" are lucky enough to get a high profile support they will probably have paid for the privelage and get no fee, no rider, no hotels, no nuthin....!!.[/quote']

Sounds like that was far from up-an-coming, but was just a support band and they never get paid. In fact, if they start asking for their rights, or insist on some form of payment, they are nearly always tossed out on their ear.

Venues above a certain size (no, I cannot remember, but it is a few thousands seats) have to be PRS registered and assuming that the band plays their own songs, they will get a part of the PRS fee. Of course, if this is their first venture out into the World, they will probably have signed their fees away in a quid-pro-quo agreement in exchange for other services (such as being allowed to appear in the first place!)

The term up-and-coming is one of those industry short-hands for an act that is about to break, so you'd better be nice to them. They get paid.

[jester1470]

Sounds like that was far from up-an-coming' date=' but was just a support band and they never get paid. In fact, if they start asking for their rights, or insist on some form of payment, they are nearly always tossed out on their ear.

Venues above a certain size (no, I cannot remember, but it is a few thousands seats) have to be PRS registered and assuming that the band plays their own songs, they will get a part of the PRS fee. Of course, if this is their first venture out into the World, they will probably have signed their fees away in a quid-pro-quo agreement in exchange for other services (such as being allowed to appear in the first place!)

The term up-and-coming is one of those industry short-hands for an act that is about to break, so you'd better be nice to them. They get paid.[/quote']

Lots of acts who are bigger do pay support acts, Jo got paid for doing the Marillion support, she gets paid for the Midge gigs and most of the expenses were met for the H Band gigs. We have never signed away anything, get PRS sorted for every gig if we can. In fact the one place that didnt have PRS forms was Moshulu.

Cheers

Stuart