Christian Bands?

[Guest allsystemsfail]

So who decides what action is to be taken where and when?

No one idividual decides. Decisions are made collectively by the community as a whole. I've went over this already.

[GraemeC]

None of these problems have their roots in religion. Jesus' date=' Abraham and Mohammed certainly wouldn't approve of any of them. These are all either cultural or political situations where religion has been wrongly used to justify the actions of the perpetrators.

One person's faith is another person's weapon.[/quote']

Wake up and smell the coffee for goodness sake.....people throughout the world are brought up to hate other people because they have a different faith....and you dont have to go far from home to see it in action.

Every war in history with the possible exception of Korea and Vietnam has its roots firmly set in religion....no argument.

[GraemeC]

No one idividual decides. Decisions are made collectively by the community as a whole. I've went over this already.

Ok, so lets imagine a situation where the community is devided 50/50 on an issue what then?

Or imagine if it were global and a decision had to be made on something, would everyone be consulted....could that ever be workable?

Nothing would ever get done because you would spend you're day being consulted about stuff....unless you appointed someone you trusted to make those decisions for you....you could have a few of them....what will we call them?

[soundian]

Wake up and smell the coffee for goodness sake.....people throughout the world are brought up to hate other people because they have a different faith....and you dont have to go far from home to see it in action.

Every war in history with the possible exception of Korea and Vietnam has its roots firmly set in religion....no argument.

Better watch you don't get called an imbecile for having such outrageous thoughts.

[GraemeC]

Better watch you don't get called an imbecile for having such outrageous thoughts.

Old imbicile.....try and get it right ian.

G...

[soundian]

Old imbicile.....try and get it right ian.

G...

Old IMBECILE..... try and get it right Graeme.

[Moshulu Rob]

The argument used by christian fundamentalists against homosexuality is quite interesting if you read the whole book of Leviticus.

Here is a letter that was sent to someone using that passage of leviticus to denounce homosexuality:

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your radio show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific Bible laws and how to follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors complain to the zoning people. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. What do you think would be a fair price for her? She's 18 and starting college. Will the slave buyer be required to continue to pay for her education by law ?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense and threaten to call Human Resources.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? ....Why can't I own Canadians? Is there something wrong with tham due to the weather?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should this be a neighborhood improvement project ? What is a good day to start? Should we begin with small stones? Kind of lead up to it?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. I mean, a shrimp just isn't the same as a you-know-what. Can you settle this?

g) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here? Would contact lenses fall within some exception?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die? The Mafia once took out Albert Anastasia in a barbershop, but I'm not Catholic; is this ecumenical thing a sign that it's ok?

I) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev.24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted disciple and adoring fan

The problem isn't with religion itself. Many people use religion to find comfort and it helps a lot of people live better more productive lives.

The problem, always, is when a minority try to control vast tracts of people to do whatever they want, citing religion as a reason to do it. This happens as much with Christian fundamentalists as with Moslem fundametalists. The only difference is that the Moslems crash planes into buildings full of unbelievers and get condemmed the world over, the Christian fundamentalists lie and cheat their way into power in the US and 'Legitametly' bomb vast numbers of unbelievers with no come back at all.

Oh and they get to steal their oil while they are there.

[GraemeC]

Old IMBECILE..... try and get it right Graeme.

Well if im an imbecile how do you expect me to spell right?

[soundian]

Well if im an imbecile how do you expect me to spell right?

Fair point. I also wouldn't expect you to be able to capitalise the i when you're talking about the first person singular pronoun or use the apostrophe either.

[Guest allsystemsfail]

Ok' date=' so lets imagine a situation where the community is devided 50/50 on an issue what then?

Or imagine if it were global and a decision had to be made on something, would everyone be consulted....could that ever be workable?

Nothing would ever get done because you would spend you're day being consulted about stuff....unless you appointed someone you trusted to make those decisions for you....you could have a few of them....what will we call them?[/quote']

A set of proposals, if any difficulty was encountered in reaching a decision over which one should be accepted, would continue to be thrashed out until a concensus was found. If that fails, one option may be to implement both plans, so that neither side is dismissed. Such decision making processes are already in use within the anarchist movement.

And global? We ain't talkin one world government.

[Demon Of The Fall]

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your radio show' date=' and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific Bible laws and how to follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors complain to the zoning people. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. What do you think would be a fair price for her? She's 18 and starting college. Will the slave buyer be required to continue to pay for her education by law ?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense and threaten to call Human Resources.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? ....Why can't I own Canadians? Is there something wrong with tham due to the weather?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should this be a neighborhood improvement project ? What is a good day to start? Should we begin with small stones? Kind of lead up to it?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. I mean, a shrimp just isn't the same as a you-know-what. Can you settle this?

g) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here? Would contact lenses fall within some exception?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die? The Mafia once took out Albert Anastasia in a barbershop, but I'm not Catholic; is this ecumenical thing a sign that it's ok?

I) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev.24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted disciple and adoring fan

.[/quote']

i was laughing at that for about five minutes solid there!

[soundian]

A set of proposals' date=' if any difficulty was encountered in reaching a decision over which one should be accepted, would continue to be thrashed out until a concensus was found. If that fails, one option may be to implement both plans, so that neither side is dismissed. Such decision making processes are already in use within the anarchist movement.

And global? We ain't talkin one world government.[/quote']

How big could any particular community get before this system becomes too unwieldy?

[Guest allsystemsfail]

How big could any particular community get before this system becomes too unwieldy?

In addressing bigger questions, communities can link with others. This can be done country wide.

I should say that I'm no expert on these matters. However, my inability in answering some questions with complete confidence should not invalidate the main thrust of the anarchist arguement.

[Skull Commander]

This post is almost as stimulating as when I attended sociology lectures at university. Hoorahhh!

[GraemeC]

You're missing the point by a fairly wide margin. My point was that religion isn't the problem' date=' it's people who misuse the faith of others to achieve their own political goals.

Argument. Some wars in history have used religion as an excuse. I'd like to add the American Civil War, The American War Of Independence, World Wars I and II and the Napoleonic wars to your list of wars that have nothing to do with religion.[/quote']

Cant you see that politics and religion in the past and to this day in some countries are one and the same, the minute a religious figure blesses THEIR soldiers before going into battle religion is involved.

People kill each other and use religion as an excuse? Why is it an excuse when these people have been brainwashed from birth that their neighbour is not fit to live because of his allternative views....go and live in Glasgow for a couple of years that'll open your eyes.

[Terance]

i am intigued on how worked up people get on this.

Religion in any form affects all our lives. We either follow it, fear it, dispise it because we cannot understand it or we just have no time for it.

I am not a devotee to religion but i do believe in something else being there.

On the side of healthy christian bands,

Kato are good, http://k.kato.com/pages/home.html

as is Luna Halo http://www.lunahalo.com/luna/news.htm

Indigo Echo http://www.indigoecho.com/minisite/index.htm

all of whom do not force a message but tell of how they are influenced by a higher being .

Interesting ?

and Punk is Dead its become A close-minded, self-centered social club

Ideas don't matter, it's who you know

If the music's gotten boring

It's because of the people

Who want everyone to sound the same

Who drive the bright people out

Of our so-called scene

'Til all that's left Is just a meaningless fad

So eager to please

Peer pressure decrees

So eager to please

Peer pressure decrees

Make the same old mistakes

Again and again,

Chickenshit conformist

Like your parents

[GraemeC]

Now you're changing the argument. Think about it' date=' why are these soldiers being blessed? Is it because they are truly doing God's work, or is it to salve their consciences and persuade them that their sacrifices wil be rewarded? Like I said before, religion can be used as a weapon. The founders of the major world religions did not intend it to be used as such.

It's an excuse because anyone (for the sake of argument, let's stick to Christianity) following the example of Jesus would not seek to deliberately hurt any other human being for having different religious beliefs from themselves. Christians who genuinely believe in God would hate the sin but love the sinner. Those who have been brought up in a cultural situation where the practice of religion and the identification with their "own kind", rather than the spiritual relationship between man and God is their main concern are no closer to God than any atheist.

I understand your anger at those who seek to twist religion in order to serve evil purposes, but surely you must also understand that religion can be a force for good as well, providing comfort and strength to billions and improving the lives of those people and for those around them.

And as regards Glasgow...I'm not blind to sectarianism, it's just I don't believe that anyone who actively partakes in sectarian hostility is doing so because of religion. I studied theology for three years alongside Ulster protestants and Glaswegian catholics, as well as methodists and members of other Christian denominations. They all managed to get on famously despite the differences in their preferred style of worship. The situation in Glasgow has more to do with emnity stretching back to the British occupation of Ireland and the crimes perpetrated there than doctrinal and spiritual issues.[/quote']

The one glaring hole in you're argument is that religion is practiced/followed by human beings.....and as a species we are deeply flawed, religion is like communism....it looks great on paper but doesnt work when we fuck with it.

I hate the fact that all these different people all round the world have taken a few tales and legends moulded them to suit their own needs and beliefs, I'm sorry if I seem bitter but when the "Christian" faith can take their rule book and over the generations mould it and edit it to suit the feelings of the times, what are people expected to believe any more? as an example.....homosexuals....are they an abomination that should be stoned to death or should they be allowed to be priests or married in a religious ceremony?

[soundian]

Now you're changing the argument. Think about it' date=' why are these soldiers being blessed? Is it because they are truly doing God's work, or is it to salve their consciences and persuade them that their sacrifices wil be rewarded? Like I said before, religion can be used as a weapon. The founders of the major world religions did not intend it to be used as such.

It's an excuse because anyone (for the sake of argument, let's stick to Christianity) following the example of Jesus would not seek to deliberately hurt any other human being for having different religious beliefs from themselves. Christians who genuinely believe in God would hate the sin but love the sinner. Those who have been brought up in a cultural situation where the practice of religion and the identification with their "own kind", rather than the spiritual relationship between man and God is their main concern are no closer to God than any atheist.

I understand your anger at those who seek to twist religion in order to serve evil purposes, but surely you must also understand that religion can be a force for good as well, providing comfort and strength to billions and improving the lives of those people and for those around them.

[/quote']

Doesn't the bible say that people should only worship the one true god (which is ironically the same god for christians, jews and muslims, as far as I can work it out, more sub-genres than metal if you ask me)?

Isn't there a bit about being really nasty to people who don't worship the one true god?

Personally, if I was omnipotent, omniscient and an all round good guy I'd be making a far better job of it than God is.

You either have free will or God has ordered things to be as they are. He's a sick mo-fo if this world is his idea so therefore it must be freewill, negating god, satan, mohammed, buddha etc. as viable role models.

The only bit I can totally agree with from my enforced religious studies is: "Do unto others as you would have done unto yourself". If that's what religion is then I'm all for it. (Sounds a bit anarchist don't you think, ASF.)

Seems like a fairly sensible way to live life, the rest of it is contradictory, outmoded bullshit made up over a thousand years ago to address the problems of the time and, as you said, manipulated by people with personal gain in mind, rather than spiritual peace.

As you may have guessed, I'm an atheist, my scientific mind and knowledge of the world won't let me acknowledge the existence of an all powerful, loving god, but I won't deny anyone else their faith if it doesn't screw with other peoples lives.

)

[soundian]

Religion in any form affects all our lives. We either follow it' date=' fear it, dispise it because we cannot understand it or we just have no time for it.

[/quote']

Or dispise(sic) it because we DO understand it.

[GraemeC]

My personal feelings are that religion is fine and dandy as a teaching tool to shape a childs morality, just as long as it doesnt involve brain washing or the whole eternal damnation threat, but when it comes down to it, in a liberal society children soon realise that God never delivers....a bit like Santa Clause.

[soundian]

The Bible states that acceptance of the Holy Spirit is the only route to absolution and salvation.

I would need absolution if my sins were caused by my free will' date=' not predetermined. If my sins are my free will there can't be a god to absolve me.

There are also bits that state that you should be really nice to them. Remember, as you read the Bible, the text and context evolves.

You mean contradicts itselfl.

Have you any idea how many schisms and controversies the question of free will versus predetermination have caused over the centuries? Does one will the Holy Spirit to enter themselves' date=' or is salvation a gift only God can give? Believe me, neither you nor I are qualified to settle that particular argument.[/quote']

I just did.

That's Christ's teaching on public behaviour in a nutshell' date=' but "For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast." [Paul's letter to the Ephesians 2:8-9'].

Incidentally, that phrase alone takes up a shelf of works on the subject in any theological library...

It's rather scary that it takes a whole shelf of books to discuss such a simple concept.

It's cool man' date=' personally I'm an agnostic apologist for Christianity. I haven't closed my mind to the possibility of divine intervention in my life, but I couldn't make a definitive case for religious belief against scientific evidence as things stand. But I know many people who could and have done so.[/quote']

I haven't closed my mind to possibilities of something else being there which science can't measure at this time, perhaps never can.

[Gall_4185]

Having been bored to tears by most of this,I think I'm going to ignore all teh pointless debate and just recomend some bands/artists.

Ben Harper & The Innocent Criminals

and

Lifehouse

Both freely admit to using religion as a basis for many of their songs

[Alkaline]

Having been bored to tears by most of this' date='I think I'm going to ignore all teh pointless debate and just recomend some bands/artists.

Ben Harper & The Innocent Criminals

and

Lifehouse

Both freely admit to using religion as a basis for many of their songs[/quote']

Ben Harper is ace.

[afurnishedsoul]

sometimes i wish it was possible to just erase all those concepts from people's minds and deprive them of any means of categorising others and themselves. why is there such a need among humans to structure everything according to definitions that are most often easily subverted into their complete opposites or stretched so they fit the agenda, and as arbitrary as pointless can be?

it is amazing to see in how many ways we are able to (re-)define ourselves. music, religion, fashion, nationality/ethnicity, politics, etc etc. i am certainly no exception to this, i'm just another human, but i'm so sick of it. fill in some application form and you're likely to be asked about your colour of skin, your faith and a lot of stuff that is usually not in the least of any relevance for what you're actually applying for. and i know that kinda stuff pisses off most of us big time. but then, after refusing to fill in that form (and right we are for doing so!), we are so happy defining ourselves by other means, in private, wearing our chosen identity on a sleeve, dogmatising it beyond recognition and praising/defining/organising our fucking individual individualism to the point where we're just as individual as anyone else on this planet who happens to have gone through the same things and has happily picked up the same abstract concepts to foster themselves an identity. that's when we start seeing ourselves as different from someone else, and then we start choosing which other identities and definitions to like and which to criticize. and we all turn elitist like little bigots who are desperately thinking about what the epitaph on their gravestone should be. we start polarising and we just indulge in simplifying argument and quoting from our favorite rulebooks. a book just smells so damn official and can give all our short-sighted arguments just that little extra-bit of credibility.

i don't think it actually makes any difference whether bands sing about christianity or anything else, because in the end half the people, at least, who listen to the songs don't pay attention to the lyrics anyway, and if they do most of them are mature enough (or should be, considering that our society, apparently, is so cultured that we can afford going about teaching the less civilised tribes of this earth, and have done so since the age when we were still burning witches and crapping in a corner in the royal dining room) to judge for themselves whether they like that point of view or not. okay. i see now that you could easily argue that what i am saying here is that it is okay to listen to racist music, because you can dismiss the lyrics as pure mental diorrhea and just sit back and enjoy the music. maybe some people would do that. that's not what i mean though. it's up to personal opinion (and personally that's where i consider that even downloading it would be a terrible waste of my precious time).

i have never ever come across a truly inclusive culture or movement. the collectivities that seem most inclusive to me are those that have no idea of their existence, those that have no definition and are truly just marked by people's open-mindedness and lack of self-definition. all we ever do is mark ourselves off from each other by debating our differences. why can't we all be, be different and not judge each other? why do we have to be christians, atheists, democrats, authoritarians, anarchists, punks, rappers, ravers, mods, skins, metalheads, students, workers, intellectuals, carnivores, vegetarians, vegans, etc, etc, etc, with all that fucking elitist baggage that comes along with all (ALL!) of those concepts. is getting along with each other not what most of us actually strive for in life. i don't mean getting along in the sense of giving in until you've given up. i mean getting along as in genuinely putting a little effort into inter-human relationships.

it is nice indeed doing something and finding some kind of tradition in it. i mean for example it is great to listen to bands, read their lyrics and think about them, check out their influences and end up going back in time, moving within a certain scene, making it work and feeling akin for sharing the same music taste and ideas. in a way, that's also how friendships work, on a smaller scale. but what makes it turn soar is that point where we then start using that in order to exclude others. and we build some kind of hierarchy of acceptability, as if we were judging people's opinions (and their progress towards the good side, which is of course our own side) on a scale from 1-10. i just feel like i can see that everywhere i go. i don't believe in the 'good' of society anymore. i find atheists just as much of a pain in the arse as catholic village priests, i no longer believe in the existence of one generally good political movement and i find it harder and harder convincing myself that the ideals that i like are actually still there (or were ever there) and that there actually is an inclusive non-elitist and truly egalitarian all-ages club somewhere out there.

some days i walk down the street and i see a child smiling and i think, well, life isn't so bad and people are a beautiful thing. but sometimes i walk down the street and i think about what that child is going to grow up with. it will have a national identity, based on a line drawn around a territory ruled by a state that our culture teaches us is necessary (whereas africa should be the best example of how arbitrary the concepts of state and nationality can be), it will have a faith or believe in the rejection of faith, it may have its favorite football team, music style, tv shows, and a whole system of personal beliefs and (mis)conceptions about what it is, what do's and dont's it has to live up to as a consequence of its perceived identity, and it is very likely to be just as judgemental as we all are (me included), to a greater or lesser extent. and then i just turn really bitter, which is why i am abusing this thread to write it all down.

it is easy to blame all the shite in the world on things like religion/anti-religion or any other concept or theory, when in reality it is us, the people, who just don't seem able to get along with each other. i don't mind religion or any other belief system. i have my own opinion and may object, but i don't really mind that they all exist. because in the end, that's all just a big excuse. once we have abolished religion and politics, we will start shooting people for other reasons. political opinions and religious concepts, on the one hand, is what is tearing people apart, but on the other hand they are nothing more than abstract concepts that we have created and that have gotten out of hand, yet nothing more than an excuse for violence that has become another reason for violence. maybe one day we'll kill each other over the kind of tea we're drinking. if humanity as a whole went to join the dinosaurs in some future museum run by a new race of bacteria-sized martians or virtual mega-apes, it wouldn't be the greatest loss...

[steve corps]

instead of all this fighting we should all try to dream of little baby jesus floating on an ice cream cloud with a polar bear as a friend.its almost christmas time.