The religion debate thread

[Guest davetherave]

I sometimes find myself in the middle of religious debates at work. I'm an aetheist that works with a whole bunch of Moslems, creationists, and a variety of other religions. Like most sensible folk, I think everyone is entitled to their beliefs, as long as they dont try and force them on anyone else.

Having said that, how can anyone possibly believe in the old testament or adam and eve? Certain creationist folk I work with have Phd's and they think we are all descended from one set of parents! When I try pointing out that this would have resulted in a very incestuous family tree and that the human race would be severely mutated from having no change in the gene pool, they refuse to even entertain the idea.

As religion has generally caused far more trouble in the world than good, Science versus Faith: A Brief History of Religion here are a few aetheist suggestions ....

1. The minority of terrorist moslems - please dont strap explosives to yourself and detonate them in public places, go find a landfill site and do it on your own!

2. Jehovah's witnesses - Blood transfusions can save your life, get over it!

3. Catholics and Protestants - just be nice to each other :o)

4. For folk that believe in reincarnation, I will do my best not to tread on you if you come back as a slug, but if your one of the many flies that decorates my car grill, tough!

5. Certain Catholic priests - Leave the altar boys alone!

6. Grant pardons to all the witches that were burnt at the stake.

7. Why do Moslems regard everyone else as "infidels", they wouldnt like it if we called them "potential terrorists"!

8. If your going to practice Satanism, please dont sacrifice too many virgins, leave some for the rest of us!

9. I have no suggestions for Pagans, they actually make good sense, and my ancestors were Druids, nature is cool

Perhaps Albania had the right idea, though Hoxha's approach was a bit harsh... State atheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Sue Denim..]

I'm surprised at how many people consider themselves Atheist.

If you are so into things being proved, wouldn't it make more sense to call yourselves Agnostics?

[Guest davetherave]

I'm surprised at how many people consider themselves Atheist.

If you are so into things being proved, wouldn't it make more sense to call yourselves Agnostics?

I may be wrong, but I think the difference is that Aetheists have absolutely no belief in god, Allah, Buddha or whatever. Whereas Agnostics are open to the possible existence of god, etc?

I am definitely an Aetheist

[Shaki]

Misinterpretation plays a big part in this 'pick and choose'. I mean, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah isn't about the condemnation of homosexuality, but that of rape and inhospitality. The sections of Leviticus that are most frequently used are part of a holiness code for the priests of Israel and these, along with other rules and rites mentioned in the Old Testament were no longer needed in the New Testament as they were for the Jewish people of Israel before the birth of Christ. Christ later condemned the Pharisees for keeping only to the letter of this old law rather than heeding his own messages - which are generally about loving your fellow man and not casting the first stone. 'Buffet line' religion bothers me because not only is it very 'pick and choose' but it also grossly misinterprets the bible.*

You seem to have suggested that the Bible, as an Allegory, is open to interpretation though? How can you then claim misinterpretation by others?!

As for myself, I can't say I'd take any of it at face value - surely it's the message that counts? If Jesus came with the message to make peace with one another and live a morally sound life then surely it would only matter that you did this, regardless of whether you believed in the idea of immaculate conception or Jesus returning from the dead?

It would be the message that counts if this was some sort of motivational, life coaching book. Its not though, it is believed by most practitioners to be the word of God, the following of which requires strange ritual and will determine your destination in an eternal afterlife. Where do you draw the line at what you believe? Immaculate conception, walking on water, heaven and hell, prayer, Jesus being the son of God?

If you dont take it at face value then I cant see how you can take it as the word of God. If you dont take it as the word of God then what is it? An old book some positive messages, depending on how it is interpreted.

Let's be honest, you aint joining the church lady.

[KarmaTsunami]

Let's be honest, we're just going on our individual conceptions of what we think about Christianity, which is fair enough since this is a debate. Your points about my points - the bible as allegory and therefore open to interpretation and misinterpretation - are perfectly valid. I'm not a Christian, I might never be a Christian, and one of the reasons I have issues with the church is the bible. I'm just playing devil's (god's?) advocate here for the sake of debate.

I don't believe the bible is the word of God either, which is why I would have no problem not taking it at face value if I were a Christian. God didn't write the bible, men wrote the bible which is probably why it's so open to interpretation, or it could be the fact that as humans we have free will and are therefore free to interpret or misinterpret things accordingly. Or maybe it's all just hokum. I don't know.

[Shaki]

I'm surprised at how many people consider themselves Atheist.

If you are so into things being proved, wouldn't it make more sense to call yourselves Agnostics?

It's only words but I see your point. I refer to myself as an athiest but wouldn't mind if referred to as agnostic if we're splitting hairs.

In The God Delusion, Dawkins sets up a Theist-Atheist Scale, not as scientific fact but for the purpose of argument. The levels are as follows:

1. Strong theist. 100 percent possibility of God. In the words of C.G. Jung, 'I do not believe, I know.'

2. Very high probability but short of 100 per cent. De facto theist. 'I cannot know for certain, but I strongly believe in God and live my life on the assumption that he is there'

3. Higher than 50 per cent but not very high. Technically agnostic but leaning towards theism. 'I am very uncertain, but I am inclined to believe in God.'

4. Exactly 50 per cent. Completely impartial agnostic. 'God's existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable.'

5. Lower than 50 per cent but not very low. Technically agnostic but leaning towards atheism. 'I don't know whether God exists but I'm inclined to be sceptical.'

6. Very low probability, but short of zero. De facto atheist. 'I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there.'

7. Strong atheist. 'I know there is no God, with the same conviction as Jung 'knows' there is one.'

I imagine most people calling themselves athiests would fall in category 5 or 6.

[ZeromiserY]

In that case I'd have to say I'm 8 on te Dawkins scale.

[Adam Easy Wishes]

In that case I'd have to say I'm 8 on te Dawkins scale.

There's no 8 on the Dawkins scale..? ?(

[ZeromiserY]

I know, that was my point. I consider myself antithiest rather than athiest.

I'd say Dawkins is an antithiest as well come to think of it.

[Adam Easy Wishes]

I know, I was being a pedant (or similar).

According to my mate Wiki, Stefan Baumrin defines an "antitheist" as "one who actually espouses atheism and would try to convince theists of the error of their ways."

Is this you?

[Paranoid Android]

I remember Christopher Hitchens saying he was an anti-theist because not only was he certain God doesn't exist but he wouldn't want there to be a God.

[Stroopy121]

If you ask me (noone did, but fuck you I'm having my say) then anyone who would call themselves an 'anti-theist' gives up the right to complain about the pious ramming religion down the throats of others...

If you don't believe and don't want to believe then fine but as soon as you start actively trying to convert the religious you open yourself up to the same shit IMHO.

I love a religious debate as much as the next guy mind, but after a while it just boils down to the same stalemate...

xx

[ZeromiserY]

I know, I was being a pedant (or similar).

According to my mate Wiki, Stefan Baumrin defines an "antitheist" as "one who actually espouses atheism and would try to convince theists of the error of their ways."

Is this you?

No no.

I'm far too lazy to be pro active like that.

The description I like is "one who believes religion is harmful to society as a whole".

[ZeromiserY]

If you ask me (noone did, but fuck you I'm having my say) then anyone who would call themselves an 'anti-theist' gives up the right to complain about the pious ramming religion down the throats of others...

If you don't believe and don't want to believe then fine but as soon as you start actively trying to convert the religious you open yourself up to the same shit IMHO.

I love a religious debate as much as the next guy mind, but after a while it just boils down to the same stalemate...

xx

I'm not trying to convert anyone.

Religion should just be made illegal. Fuck going after them individually, just get them all at once.

Checkmate

[Sue Denim..]

No no.

I'm far too lazy to be pro active like that.

The description I like is "one who believes religion is harmful to society as a whole".

So I guess Hitler was one too.

[Le Stu]

5. Lower than 50 per cent but not very low. Technically agnostic but leaning towards atheism. 'I don't know whether God exists but I'm inclined to be sceptical.'

that would be me. since the existence, or not, of God cannot be determined by observation, it requires more faith than I have to disbelieve in him.

/smug cunt

[ZeromiserY]

So I guess Hitler was one too.

Obvious troll is obvious.

From mein kampf: "... I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing the Lord's work." Years later, when in power, he quoted those same words in a Reichstag speech in 1938.

Three years later he informed General Gerhart Engel: "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so." He never left the church, and the church never left him. Many books were banned by his church, but his miserable Mien Kampf never appeared on the Index of Forbidden Books.

Knowing is half the battle. I try not to deal in guess work.

[Stroopy121]

5. Lower than 50 per cent but not very low. Technically agnostic but leaning towards atheism. 'I don't know whether God exists but I'm inclined to be sceptical.'

that would be me. since the existence, or not, of God cannot be determined by observation, it requires more faith than I have to disbelieve in him.

/smug cunt

Flying Spaghetti Monster.

xx

[Guest davetherave]

So I guess Hitler was one too.

Apparently Hitler was Catholic, he also believed that the "Aryan" race was created by god.

What would we do without wikipedia

[Le Stu]

Flying Spaghetti Monster.

xx

The whole God is a rumour argument doesn't sway me at all. It comes down to the incredible fact of our existence, against all odds. Perhaps we are a spectacular, random aberration in a multiverse full of fail but only theory supports this idea, nothing that can be proven through observation, yet.

[ZeromiserY]

The whole God is a rumour argument doesn't sway me at all. It comes down to the incredible fact of our existence, against all odds. Perhaps we are a spectacular, random aberration in a multiverse full of fail but only theory supports this idea, nothing that can be proven through observation, yet.

Even if our universe is the only universe don't you think by the sheer scale and number of possible chemical interactions (etc) that life was pretty much inevitable? After billions of years surely there had to be more than just rocks and water

[Le Stu]

Even if our universe is the only universe don't you think by the sheer scale and number of possible chemical interactions (etc) that life was pretty much inevitable? After billions of years surely there had to be more than just rocks and water

what I mean is that the basic rules of our universe are unbalanced, and had they not been our universe possibly couldn't support life, planetary systems or even matter as we know it jim. Scientists still can't explain why gravitational force is so much weaker than the strong and weak nuclear forces or electromagnetic forces. These rules were likely set at inception and haven't changed. So, great architect or infinite universes, both require faith as we simply don't know.

[ZeromiserY]

what I mean is that the basic rules of our universe are unbalanced, and had they not been our universe possibly couldn't support life, planetary systems or even matter as we know it jim. Scientists still can't explain why gravitational force is so much weaker than the strong and weak nuclear forces or electromagnetic forces. These rules were likely set at inception and haven't changed. So, great architect or infinite universes, both require faith as we simply don't know.

higgs boson wherefore art though

[Guest davetherave]

what I mean is that the basic rules of our universe are unbalanced, and had they not been our universe possibly couldn't support life, planetary systems or even matter as we know it jim. Scientists still can't explain why gravitational force is so much weaker than the strong and weak nuclear forces or electromagnetic forces. These rules were likely set at inception and haven't changed. So, great architect or infinite universes, both require faith as we simply don't know.

Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe and Everything = (42)

Phrases from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Le Stu]

higgs boson wherefore art though

it's exactly the sort of exciting things they're doing at Cern which may shed light on this issue or, more likely, just confirm that the universe is far weirder than we're ever likely to fully understand.