Lawy Lawson:Attorney Posted April 27, 2004 Report Share Posted April 27, 2004 Originally posted by M.A.R.T:man how great would blue monday sound with live drums! You knock Orgy and I'll knock you, sunshine!No really though. Atari Teenage Riot with live drums? Horses for courses, innit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
framheim Posted April 27, 2004 Report Share Posted April 27, 2004 dillinger escape plan did an awesome version of come to daddy by aphex twin with live drums. but their drummer doesn't really exist. he's a figment of everyones imagination. no one can actually drum that song. when i mentioned drum triggers it was really to guage whether flash had a problem with live drummers using drum triggers. these are used to ensure a drum retains the same sound every time it's hit. it can also be used to give the same volume every time it's hit no matter how hard. i'm no expert so if i'm wrong i'm sure someone will correct me on this. basically they're a handy tool for drummers to use if you're on tour and want to make sure you still get the same awesome drum sound it took you two weeks of tinkering to get in your practice room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.A.R.T Posted April 27, 2004 Report Share Posted April 27, 2004 Originally posted by daveofficer:these are used to ensure a drum retains the same sound every time it's hit. it can also be used to give the same volume every time it's hit no matter how hard. i'm no expert so if i'm wrong i'm sure someone will correct me on this. basically they're a handy tool for drummers to use if you're on tour and want to make sure you still get the same awesome drum sound it took you two weeks of tinkering to get in your practice room. id say a lot of drum triggers are touch sensitive. they are used to give you an infinitely wide range of sounds. id say they are equally expressive as live drums. just more uniformed in the sounds they produce, (although you can set them so they change sound in relation to the pressure of a hit) but the shape of rooms and different pa's all effect the sounds anyway.it is all relative to the sounds and styles of the music to whether electronics are benefitial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 28, 2004 Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 Originally posted by M.A.R.T:uhhh...since when does using triggers involve programming? this is me fucking up and messing up my posts again.Scrap the above thing that you quoted. I was doing about 3 things at once and lost my section in what I was typing. *goes back to edit* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betamax Posted April 28, 2004 Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 drum machines in 'rock' music are generally shit live, and are only occasionally good on recordsbut they sound fantastic when used on the right type of song in le right contextand drum machines should sound like drum machines....these fucking drum machines that do a wanky impersonation of a real drummer are giving beatboxes a bad name.....most chart records feature them and they still put a token 'miming' drummer at the back of the stage on TOTP or MTV whateverthey might as well just miss out the whole live experience and e-mail you an MP3*switches on Roland CR8000 as an example of how a drum machine should sound*listendoof - tssssh - rest - doof - doof - tssssh - rest - repeatgorgeous!but real drummers (the good ones anyway) are much more entertaining despite the mental problems, latent alchoholism, sex offences, prescription fraud etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Old Bonsie Posted April 28, 2004 Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 Q. Whats the difference between a drum machine and a drummer?A. You only have to punch the beat into it once. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delboy Posted April 28, 2004 Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 Originally posted by betamax:but real drummers (the good ones anyway) are much more entertaining despite the mental problems, latent alchoholism, sex offences, prescription fraud etc and outrageous hair habits! there's a time and a place for both drum machines and drummers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Neubeatz Posted April 28, 2004 Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 Change the poll,Real Ale??or....Mass Marketed corporate pish.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash@TMB Posted April 28, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 Heh hehI've learned a lot here, and now I do agree that yes in certain applications and certain types of music, the machines do have their place. Last night I pondered this whole debate until my head was on the verge of exploding. If you take this chain of thought to the extreme then it might drive you mad!My new improved position is that the synthesis of the drum sounds into a machine is fine, provided it is operated in real time by a person, and provided it suits the musical style. In some cases the sounds the machine makes are superior, but not when it's trying to sound like a drummer which is pants. I also agree that is certain extreme types of electronica a programmed machine may OCCASIONALLY be preferrable in place of an actual drummer, because that music is making a statement that's actually quite similar to my terminator reference. Kraftwerk for instance.In my new improved opinion there is no harm in having specialist effects produced by a machine, provided they can be triggered in such a way that they permit real-time alterations to the music where necessary in live performance.Machines are also very useful for practice, and for recording demos. Most bands can actually make a better home demo with a machine due to the difficulties in recording a drum kit. This is an unfortunate but relevant fact. I totally disagree with the machine where it is simply emulating a human drummer - especially during a live performance. My reasonings here are still as I documented in my early posts on this thread: where do we draw the line? Ultimately we'd end up with a robot singing karaoke to a backing track with humans miming their instruments... and that can't be good. Or can it?So if the poll were based on those presumptions and that last point, would the human come out on top?Flash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash@TMB Posted April 28, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 Originally posted by Old Bonsie:Q. Whats the difference between a drum machine and a drummer?A. You only have to punch the beat into it once. It's also impossible to tell if the stage is level using a drum machine because they don't drool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RicoAUBL Posted April 28, 2004 Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 personally i think its best having a drummer AND a drum machine - instead of just the machine by itselfso you have real-time drumming and crazy soundsall at the same time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Karloff Posted April 28, 2004 Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 Forn the answer to all your questions, go watch and listen to Ministry.2 drummers. Part "real" kits, part synth drums, part triggers.And a drum machine too.You can stand and watch the two drummers be totally co-ordinated in awe. Anyone who saw them on the Radio 1 stage at Download last year knows what I mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tina Posted April 28, 2004 Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 well flash, you know my opinion on the matter as we have discussed this several times and i'm glad that you have made some alterations to your perspective. The point of view from our band is that as much as we all love rock every one of us likes to go to techno/electro nights aswell. We use programmed drums because we are trying to merge the two kinds of music to create a sound that can be enjoyed by both crowds and us. Our drum loops still have soul beacause they are programmed by a real person . Some people at our gigs would never usually come come to see a rock band at drummonds but they like our music because they can dance to it. It does have its downfall though, as much as a computer is tight, it is the only member of the band that makes mistakes by jumping because of the monitors, although it was very well behaved on monday night! We are still open-minded about maybe getting a drummer aswell as the computer but we need to wait until the right drummer comes along. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delboy Posted April 28, 2004 Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 personally i think aka the fox would lose a bit of their charm if they got a 'real' drummer but having said that i'm sure there's a way of fusing the two like, say, new order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psydoll Posted April 28, 2004 Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 Originally posted by Rob Karloff:Forn the answer to all your questions, go watch and listen to Ministry.2 drummers. Part "real" kits, part synth drums, part triggers.And a drum machine too.You can stand and watch the two drummers be totally co-ordinated in awe. Anyone who saw them on the Radio 1 stage at Download last year knows what I mean. I saw them and was duly impressed and indeed that is a very good example of fusing the alternative drumming solutions. I think Lamb at Leeds festival last year used a drum machine as well as their drummer and sounded very very good also.We got bizarre backstage passes that let us backstage but not into one of the tents which was where Al Jourgensen could be seen laughing merrily. I was sad I could not go and harass him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash@TMB Posted April 28, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 Originally posted by Tina:Our drum loops still have soul beacause they are programmed by a real person .Wonder how they would sound if they were programmed by an unreal person or fictional character, say Bugs Bunny for instance...Hmmm.Frosty??? What's your take on this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tina Posted April 28, 2004 Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 Shut it, you know the point I was trying to make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash@TMB Posted April 28, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 Originally posted by Tina:Shut it, you know the point I was trying to make. One of the reasons I posed this poll was after our discussions on the subject. Hopefully you'll agree that I weighted the question as farily as possible. The reason I wanted to open it up to debate was that I really struggle to understand this entire concept. I'm starting to get my head round it better now though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bob Double Jack Posted April 28, 2004 Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 Real drums, real drums and more real drums.That is my preference. It allows for far more improvisation, and visually and sonically - especially in the case of our fantastic drummer Del (who did 3 gigs with AKA The Fox last year if I remember correctly) - I would go with drummer every time. Ross (Seven Stone Under) is a cracking drummer too. Now there are 2 guys who can adapt to any style. Oh, and Neil Peart as well. Oh. My. God. But, each to their own, they can be effective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hog Posted April 29, 2004 Report Share Posted April 29, 2004 Real drums but not for ambient/dance etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tina Posted April 29, 2004 Report Share Posted April 29, 2004 Originally posted by Flash@TMB:One of the reasons I posed this poll was after our discussions on the subject. Hopefully you'll agree that I weighted the question as farily as possible. The reason I wanted to open it up to debate was that I really struggle to understand this entire concept. I'm starting to get my head round it better now though. Totally agree, and its good to hear all the different perspectives on the subject, at the end of the day its all down to personal preference, I think you made a lot of good points. We recorded a few tracks at exile studios last night by the way and it sounds rockin! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash@TMB Posted April 29, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 29, 2004 Originally posted by Bob Double Jack:Del (who did 3 gigs with AKA The Fox last year if I remember correctly I suspect that AKA The Fox might not have anticipated all that was required in packing a drum kit away Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash@TMB Posted April 29, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 29, 2004 Originally posted by Tina:We recorded a few tracks at exile studios last night by the way and it sounds rockin! Was this with Mark Thomas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre Von Mondragon Posted April 29, 2004 Report Share Posted April 29, 2004 Yeah, sounded wicked.I could go on about this at such length, but i'll keep it to a few salient points.1) Years ago (early 90's) when I was trying to get a rock n roll band together finding a drummer and rehearsal space was always a bind, hence why I did about 6 gigs in 3-4 years, the same amount i've done since February with A.K.A, all of which have been much better than anything I did way back when2)Having spent the last 7 years making electronic music, particularly 5 with Optoplan ( not dead, just in cryo) made me just prefer a hard 909 or deep 808 kick, now in a perfect world we would have a shit -hot drummer with those Roland V-drums set to kill, but even then a good loop might gel it together better. If we did get a drummer they would have to be a technophile (proper meaning), that would help develop the sound3) As a sloppyish guitar player I need even tighter drums!4) It can be done well or badly, as with any creative endeavour, I dont believe in musical relativism. It has definitely contributed to us sounding different, as it allows us to practise at 'home', record and demo and tinker til stuff just sounds rightAs Lee Perry said about drum machines, he wanted to hit his drummer over the head with it until he played as tight, in space or something Jungle Lion! etcThere aren't any rules any way, but I have liked the way that playing to a sequenced track has moulded our sound and vibe man, what you lose in flexibility can be made up for in intensity and relentlessness, As Strobing Goat might agree ( Zak I found those Suicide Squad Photo's, will try and digitise them etc). Anyway enough from me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bob Double Jack Posted April 29, 2004 Report Share Posted April 29, 2004 Originally posted by Flash@TMB:I suspect that AKA The Fox might not have anticipated all that was required in packing a drum kit away Lets not even go down the road you're taking with that comment. It won't be taken in jest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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