FMA'07 - Best Venue

[trippinoneastereggs]

Tunnels over Moshulu hands down, no competition, so there.

[fli$]

Tunnels over Moshulu hands down, no competition, so there.

It's because they wear better t-shirts isn't it? Goddamit.

[trippinoneastereggs]

It's because they wear better t-shirts isn't it? Goddamit.

Yup. You'd never see anyone wear an Aerosmith T-shirt in there.

(I will retract my statement if it actually happens)

[HairyScaryMark]

the tunnels sound has been awesome at times, more likely when the bands bring their own engineers with them and fine tune and tweak at soundcheck. it takes time, but with a room like that it is essential!.

when there are local gigs on they sound pap because of many reasons

- bands think "loud" means turn the volume up really high (particularly bad if they own pish gear). if you have any of your eqs at 10 you *may* run into problems

- a lot of musicians round here do not take the time out to hone their live sound + tones

- local bands (even when living 5 mins away) still manage to turn up late and have no soundcheck, or do turn up on time but get no soundcheck due to someone somewhere cocking up/setting up and breaking down

and as a result it is a mammoth task to get a decent eq through a pa in a room shaped like that, and with a stage like that

These are all strong factors but in the end sound engineerand providers of PA equipment have to accept a large degree of responsibility for the overall quality of the sound at a music venue. I accept that a lot of venue owners (or those who hire PA systems) probably don't know a great deal about PA systems or room acoustics but for me it has a great impact on my enjoyance of a peformance. I have previously had gigs ruined by poor sound.

My understanding of loud backlines on stage (often turned up due to loud drummer), means the stage monitors get turned up, meaning the sound off them is heard out front (sounding muffled) which then results in the PA system being turned up even louder and a average PA system like Mackie will sound harsh when loud. Also will sound a lot harsher when damaging our hearing.

Flash of the Moorings has the right idea with powerbreaks at the desk. Such a measure would not be introduced unless it was entirely necessary (which it is).

You should also understand that EQ is an entirely desctructive process. EQ is used when there is something wrong with the source signal being fed to the sound desk. It is sometimes used also to compensate for acoustics of the room. It is sometimes also used to help an instrument 'sit' in a mix but that could also be said to be because there is something wrong with the original source.

The acoustics of the room aren't going to change from night to night so an installed system should have had this fixed on the first day it makes it way to the venue.

The processing of making a room 'dead' involves getting an expensive 'flat response' microphone and feeding pink noise? through the PA system (all frequencies at the same level). The graphic equalisers for the front of house outputs are then adjusted so that no frequency band is exagerated by the PA.

Basic knowledge dictates that an instrumental tone is only going to be as good as the weakest part of the system. It is getting more and more the case that the weakest part of the system is the band's gear on stage (particularly with young bands). I have heard bands say stuff like "a valve amp costs 20 gigs at drummonds" but that is besides the point and if their guitar tone is not acceptable they are never going to get further than playing gigs at drummonds (note this is only an example).

[psydoll]

Thanks to the other comments from the Moshulu bar staff / DJs / hangers-on - i'm glad you've taken you're customers comments to hearts and are acting on their suggestions / gripes*.

* Im being sarcastic again here in case anyone misses the signposting yet again.

Music at clubnights is one thing but on the subject of gigs I guess I'm right there on the opinion/arsehole end of things with you dude ^_^

[french_disko]

what people are missing here is the point I'm trying to make about Moshulu as a whole - the t-shirt thing isn't really the issue, it's just the fact that when you're in there getting served by someone in an Aerosmith t-shirt at, say a Sparklehorse gig (as I did), then it just reinforces the opinion that it's a club (albeit, on the rockier side of the spectrum) rather than a music venue.

Does that make sense at all?

Personally, I couldn't give a flying toss if people listen to Aerosmith or what the DJs play (Bon Jovi one memorable night I was in there) - however, being in there for a gig feels like you're intruding on someone elses private patry in their home.

Same with the "get out for 10:30!" rule - after paying 10 - 15 quid on a gig it's a bit of a shitty feeling to be chucked out so early of a venue that's going to open again later. Can we not be pushed to the side for half an hour to finish our drinks or buy more? Does that not make more economic sense? Again, it just gives the impression you're not welcome in there.

If anyone from Moshulu wants to comment on this then I'd gladly engage in conversation on here or over a pint - in fact, it would nice if someone took Jamie's approach at the Lemon Tree and takes on board opinions (right or wrong as they are).

However, if only response I get is the mock outrage / sarcasm of fli$'s last few posts then maybe a course in customer relations may be in order.

Psydoll - not sure what you meant by the "opinion / arsehole" post.

Right, I'm off to invade Poland now.......

[soundian]

You should also understand that EQ is an entirely desctructive process. EQ is used when there is something wrong with the source signal being fed to the sound desk. It is sometimes used also to compensate for acoustics of the room. It is sometimes also used to help an instrument 'sit' in a mix but that could also be said to be because there is something wrong with the original source.

Or to compensate for close-miking, or to enhance certain frequencies (e.g. sub in kick drums, or "click" in kick drums). Nothing wrong with the original source in those cases.

The acoustics of the room aren't going to change from night to night so an installed system should have had this fixed on the first day it makes it way to the venue.

The processing of making a room 'dead' involves getting an expensive 'flat response' microphone and feeding pink noise? through the PA system (all frequencies at the same level). The graphic equalisers for the front of house outputs are then adjusted so that no frequency band is exagerated by the PA.

I'm afraid the acoustics can change quite radically in the space of a few hours, the introduction of several hundred large bags of water with round reflective bits on top will see to that.

Graphic equalisers are also quite clumsy devices and aren't really up to the task, some form of system controller with multi-band parametrics is the best way.

[psydoll]

what people are missing here is the point I'm trying to make about Moshulu as a whole - the t-shirt thing isn't really the issue, it's just the fact that when you're in there getting served by someone in an Aerosmith t-shirt at, say a Sparklehorse gig (as I did), then it just reinforces the opinion that it's a club (albeit, on the rockier side of the spectrum) rather than a music venue.

Does that make sense at all?

Personally, I couldn't give a flying toss if people listen to Aerosmith or what the DJs play (Bon Jovi one memorable night I was in there) - however, being in there for a gig feels like you're intruding on someone elses private patry in their home.

Same with the "get out for 10:30!" rule - after paying 10 - 15 quid on a gig it's a bit of a shitty feeling to be chucked out so early of a venue that's going to open again later. Can we not be pushed to the side for half an hour to finish our drinks or buy more? Does that not make more economic sense? Again, it just gives the impression you're not welcome in there.

If anyone from Moshulu wants to comment on this then I'd gladly engage in conversation on here or over a pint - in fact, it would nice if someone took Jamie's approach at the Lemon Tree and takes on board opinions (right or wrong as they are).

However, if only response I get is the mock outrage / sarcasm of fli$'s last few posts then maybe a course in customer relations may be in order.

Psydoll - not sure what you meant by the "opinion / arsehole" post.

Right, I'm off to invade Poland now.......

I guess the t-shirt comment makes a bit more sense now but at the same time it's never something that's bothered me at any gig I've been to at any venue and so seems ever so slightly petty (again, opinion! ). There was talk of uniforms being brought in for the Moshulu barstaff to compliment the attitude that's been taken downstairs in Bassment a short while ago which would most likely provide a more professional front to the whole operation in the eyes of the general public but I struggle to recall ever going to another town and feeling unwelcome in a venue, 'disinterested' barstaff or not. I guess it seems more like you're judging people by a shirt, surely someone could like Sparklehorse AND Aerosmith? I dunno. I'm rambling a bit. I get what you're saying but it's nothing that'd ever occur to me say if a girl behind the bar at 13th Note was wearing a Suede t-shirt when I was there to see Mistress

The 10:30 curfew thing I understand customers frustration with but with the majority of the gigs attracting under-18's there I can see the hassle in ID-ing everyone and booting out underagers. Some kind of stamp or wristband system with everyone providing ID upon entry mayhaps? I still don't think I've seen any suggestions on here, I'm sure Rob would be willing to at least listen. It's not like RFR don't want the club open as quickly as possible either as quite a few nights have been mooted as going straight into the clubnight despite loading gear off the stage issues. Such is life! Rob! Sort it oot!

The opinion/arsehole post was just in an 'everyone has one' sort of way as I'm no more involved in most of the gigs (bar the Club NME ones) than you are. Purely a spectator.

[/Rambling]

[french_disko]

I guess the t-shirt comment makes a bit more sense now but at the same time it's never something that's bothered me at any gig I've been to at any venue and so seems ever so slightly petty (again, opinion! ). There was talk of uniforms being brought in for the Moshulu barstaff to compliment the attitude that's been taken downstairs in Bassment a short while ago which would most likely provide a more professional front to the whole operation in the eyes of the general public but I struggle to recall ever going to another town and feeling unwelcome in a venue, 'disinterested' barstaff or not. I guess it seems more like you're judging people by a shirt, surely someone could like Sparklehorse AND Aerosmith? I dunno. I'm rambling a bit. I get what you're saying but it's nothing that'd ever occur to me say if a girl behind the bar at 13th Note was wearing a Suede t-shirt when I was there to see Mistress

The 10:30 curfew thing I understand customers frustration with but with the majority of the gigs attracting under-18's there I can see the hassle in ID-ing everyone and booting out underagers. Some kind of stamp or wristband system with everyone providing ID upon entry mayhaps? I still don't think I've seen any suggestions on here, I'm sure Rob would be willing to at least listen. It's not like RFR don't want the club open as quickly as possible either as quite a few nights have been mooted as going straight into the clubnight despite loading gear off the stage issues. Such is life! Rob! Sort it oot!

The opinion/arsehole post was just in an 'everyone has one' sort of way as I'm no more involved in most of the gigs (bar the Club NME ones) than you are. Purely a spectator.

[/Rambling]

i think Moshulu t-shirts would look better on the barstaff... it's purely a comestic thing, but i think looks a bit more proffesional, as you said. I would say there should be more bar staff on during busy gigs though - someone mentioned 6/7 earlier - so that's only one barperson per 100 people when it's full! what's the score with the backroom during gigs? does the band & crew use it or is it open to the public? could it be open to the public?

"Unwelcome" might be a bit strong- petty, even! I'm just struggling to convey the feeling. It's just more that you feel you're in rock/metal venue while watching a alt.country band (for example) and it's strange... maybe just me, can't really express what i'm meaning here.

10:30 thing... good question. Stamps or wristbands are a an idea, can't really think of anything else off hand. Have you pay to get back into club nights? That's always what I presumed was happening - making you pay twice - as I wasn't aware most gigs were 14+. Not sure what teh score is with moving equipment etc and how people feel about that.

I might sound like i'm moaning too much here, but I don't want it to be like that - i've got nothing but praise for RFR and Moshulu for getting these gigs to town and they should be commended in that respect & I hope I haven't offended them or annoyed them with my coments.

[Flash@TMB]

I'm afraid the acoustics can change quite radically in the space of a few hours, the introduction of several hundred large bags of water with round reflective bits on top will see to that.

When we had a shit rig, the introduction of a hundred water bags made a big difference. Now we have a good rig it makes very little difference. The indicates to me that the water bags only alter an exisitng problem rather than being a problem in their own right.

The function of EQ that we use most is filtering. I used to wonder why the vocal required a filter, when if the PA was flat, and the mic was flat - my expectation being that the vocal should not require any EQ to sound natural. Mark explained to me that because when people speak they must breathe out at the same time, this confuses the mic with additional air pressure not directly related to the sound of the voice. That needs to be filtered out.

For other instruments the filter only exists to remove frequencies that are not originating from that source, for instance a low cut on the guitar cab mic will weed out the bass that it's picking up from elsewhere.

If the PA is good then very little enhancement is required, unless the sources are occluding each other... and it's easier to fix that at source during level check. We've spent the past 3 years slowing phasing out enhancements as we have fixed numerous little problems with room and stage.

I'm with HairyScaryMark on room EQ. You get it pretty much right ont he first day then spend the next X years refining it.

Our Powerbrakes are used to drive the amps harder, and get more of those valve harmonics out than would otherwise be the case. The main reason for guitar players turning up their amps is the sound of the amp, not any problem with hearing it. Drums are always a problem, and to get around this we fitted a lot of sound absorbtion to our stage. It's more like playing outdoors. The sound of the drum hits themselves are NOT the problem. A vocalist can stand immediately in front of the drummer will no ill effects... it's the reflection of the drum hits off walls, ceiling, and floor that make the drums seem too loud. Remove the reflection and the problem is solved. Of course this has a knock on effect on the rest of the stage sound, so we used very powerful and efficient monitors to compensate, feeding a tiny bit of reverb into them to wetten things up. But nobody leaves our stage or venue with sore or ringing ears.

If ears get sore then they are being damaged. The good news is that eventually the damage will filter out all that horrible distorted sound and the gig will sound fine, the bad news is that the ears are ruined, and everywhere else wil sound lifeless.

[Cloud]

The Forum - really good if you can fill that place, too big for local bands but if you can get 1000 people or so it would be amazing (or less if the gig is suitable for sitting round tables). House PA is stupidly big and not brilliant. Better buying a higher quality and smaller system for the same money. Venue is quite well laid out for big gigs anyway.

The Forum isn't meant to be a gig venue - which is probably where it falls down drastically. It makes a shitload of money from corporate functions - I've been in there where the bar has taken nearly 10k through the bar on an account, with a lot of the "small" nights like the Vegas nights taking in a good 5k easy.

I can't remeber the exact capacity, but it's less than 1000 - I think it's closer to 700 than 1000, actually.

I dare say if The Forum could be arsed, they could blow Moshulu and the Lemon Tree clean out of the water - but while they're pulling in a ridiculous amount of money on corporate functions, why would they want to?

[HairyScaryMark]

The Bar I work in had £1200 go into the till on one of our busier nights so coporate functions are deffinately a huge money spinner.

I am suprised the capacity is so low. That really isn't a great deal larger than Moshulu or The Lemon Tree, in that case.

I personally would rather play The Forum in a band (providing I had the people to fill it). The Stage is much bigger and higher. With a fair bit of equipment on stage at moshulu or the lemontree, you are left wtih very little space to move around. Just about everyone could see the band in the forum.

[HairyScaryMark]

Or to compensate for close-miking, or to enhance certain frequencies (e.g. sub in kick drums, or "click" in kick drums). Nothing wrong with the original source in those cases.

I would argue that many drummers play kick drums which are quite far from what is suitable for the type of music they play. I prefer something quite subtle but can still comes across. There is also a habbit of mic'ing bass drums up quite poorly. For heavy rock, 2 mics are ideal to get the sound of the 'kick' alongside the boomyness. It does however depend on the microphone(s) you use.

Admittedly. I found a huge conflict between kick mic and bass guitar in a band I recorded a few months a go. If I could hear the kick mic, the bass guitar sounded insufficent and not punchy sounding enough. As soon as I turned the bass frequncies up on the bass EQ I found the kick drum completely vanished. This was partially due to a relatively small error in micing the bass drum and the bass guitar not being of great quality (and the behringer A/D converters used). I eventually got both to sit in the mix but this required compromise, balance and effectively destructing audio signals with EQ. I can assume most of these things wont happen next time I record a band.

I'm afraid the acoustics can change quite radically in the space of a few hours, the introduction of several hundred large bags of water with round reflective bits on top will see to that.

Graphic equalisers are also quite clumsy devices and aren't really up to the task, some form of system controller with multi-band parametrics is the best way.

Very true but if you engineer in a venue often you should know 98% of what is going to happen to the acoustics of the room as more people arrive. My comments were made in relation to the venues with in-house PA systems that don't sound very good. They really should have an advantage as the engineers get a chance to engineer in the same venue many times with the same PA system.

The bands also make a huge difference, as I well know from experience.... The singer who didn't bother to sing into the microphone she was given. A drummer who used hot rods in a fairly big venue causing drums to be required through the other musicians monitors. A flute player who thought she knew more about micing flutes than the sound engineers did despite failing to play an entire piece of music without drifting out of tune, during every single phrase. The guitarist with a really awful solid state amp who asked us to plug his 'speaker output' into the mixing desk..... I have more examples.

Bands also love to tell the sound engineer nothing about their monitor mix at soundcheck then complain about it afterwards.

[The Ghost Of Fudge]

I personally would rather play The Forum in a band (providing I had the people to fill it). The Stage is much bigger and higher. With a fair bit of equipment on stage at moshulu or the lemontree, you are left wtih very little space to move around. Just about everyone could see the band in the forum.

when deadloss played the forum with earthtone9, the sound onstage was shit though. not that there were 700 people there to soak up the sound (which was presumably bouncing right, left and everywhere). the venue looked great though - i only wished there were people in the balcony too. that would've been good.

i can also confirm that the stage is high enough to snap the neck of your guitar if you drop it from shoulder height. just ask marty deadloss. *chortle*

[Flash@TMB]

when deadloss played the forum with earthtone9, the sound onstage was shit though. not that there were 700 people there to soak up the sound (which was presumably bouncing right, left and everywhere). the venue looked great though - i only wished there were people in the balcony too. that would've been good.

i can also confirm that the stage is high enough to snap the neck of your guitar if you drop it from shoulder height. just ask marty deadloss. *chortle*

They need better PA in there. The top cabs are Bose (great for a car stereo), and the system is hung wrong. Don't know what they have on stage. Give me 250K and a spare weekend and I'll sort it LOL.

[psydoll]

when deadloss played the forum with earthtone9, the sound onstage was shit though. not that there were 700 people there to soak up the sound (which was presumably bouncing right, left and everywhere). the venue looked great though - i only wished there were people in the balcony too. that would've been good.

i can also confirm that the stage is high enough to snap the neck of your guitar if you drop it from shoulder height. just ask marty deadloss. *chortle*

Also the stage slopes towards the crowd giving performers an 'ARGHI'M FALLINGINTOTHE GREATUNWASHED' sort of feel.