Faith

[SteveCrisis]

Our tiny minds are not capable of comprehending the bigger picture so I don't bother trying. It is my firm belief that nobody knows the meaning of life or the source of existence no matter how many "plausible" scientific or religious theories there are. I know how I feel about being a good person to others and trying to live a good life.......not that I particularly excel at this. i would also say I believe in "something spiritual". It may all become clear come death time (unless there is just nothingness) and some of you may well get bragging rights for being correct.

Not that I disagree, but I'm of the opinion that religion was invented to negate mankind's irrational fear of the unknown.

If ignorance is bliss then I'm happier than a pig in shit. And if that pig is next for slaughter, bags I the pork chops and the quality rashers of bacon! Apologies to Jews and Muslims everywhere. With these two faiths, I can't quite fathom the necessity of prohibiting the eating of porcine meat and especially with Islam the imbiing of alcohol. No-one tels me what to eat and drink, except of course for those in the medical profession who know better than I what's good for me.

[Neil]

HOWEVER' date=' I oddly convince myself that there is some kind of greater being. I suppose it's just my way of trying to tell myself that perhaps there is meaning to it all. I don't know what this being is.[/quote']

I kind of believe in Karma (or certainly the principal that if you are good you will be rewarded and if you are bad you will get what you deserve).

I also believe in aliens....

If someone on the street asked me about my beliefs then I'd say I was an athiest. I've always been very against religion being forced upon an individual (take school assembly as an example) and am very intolerant in that respect.

That potentially made little sense.

You don't say.

I'd say your agnostic rather than atheist to be honest.

[Plato the Greek]

I'm an advocate of the 'hands on' approach when it comes to religion. That's why I'm a Thugee.

[Guest MKII]

Those are the rules I fail to stick by.

Hey, you're human!!!

[flossie suvara]

Apologies to Jews and Muslims everywhere. With these two faiths' date=' I can't quite fathom the necessity of prohibiting the eating of porcine meat.[/quote']

If I remember my RE class at school correctly, it's most likely that the prohibition against Pork was due to health reasons - Islam and Judaism originating in a hot/desert region, where pork would quickly spoil and be host to lots of unpleasant parasites.

Regards

Flossie

[Alkaline]

I don't personally view faith to be correlated with Religion. I'm not religious, but i am tolerent of other peoples choices to be religious. For me 'faith' is more about having respect, trust, love and understanding in regard to yourself, your family, friends, partner etc. I don't need a set out template of rules and regulations to tell me whether i've done wrong or wronged someone else, i can work that out for myself.

I see religion as being corrupted, missused and volatile. It masks all of that by preaching a message, which is wrong and contradicts all it serves to do.

I don't hold much 'faith' in the majority of mankind though.

[Guest Neubeatz]

Does anyone on these boards have enough strength of faith in their own chosen religion to declare it here? Is there a fear of ridicule or offence if you do? I'm genuinely interested in whether or not we have any religious people here' date=' and what the general reaction would be to someone else's beliefs.

How committed are we? How tolerant are we?[/quote']

While I am tolerant, I believe that religion is the ignorants way of explaining that which they are scientifically unable to understand,

If you dont know how it works, cover it with a fairy story, and explain it as gods will.

Thats not to say that I have no morality, or a hollywood morality,(latter 20th century form of religion) but morality and religion are not inextricably linked at all.

And I agree with Pete in the hills. o_O

[pogofish]

Does anyone on these boards have enough strength of faith in their own chosen religion to declare it here?

I'm normally extremely tolerant but the act of "declaration" itself' date=' is imo an aggressive religious gesture & well into the territory of those who might try & force their belief systems on others. So no, I'll stick to my beliefs & wish you well with yours.

I'm an evangelical Christian. We're very misunderstood.

I agree, most folk just think you to be misguided overenthusastic fools.

However, after several years schooling & various later experiences at the hands of a succession of prize bigots & fundy-fuckwits, I'd tend to make an exception to my usual tolerance for your particular breed of cuntishness.

Pass the petrol please!

[SteveCrisis]

If I remember my RE class at school correctly' date=' it's most likely that the prohibition against Pork was due to health reasons - Islam and Judaism originating in a hot/desert region, where pork would quickly spoil and be host to lots of unpleasant parasites.

Regards

Flossie[/quote']

I can go along with that. But when health reasons become doctrine, that's just too much.

Oh no! A troop of anti-caffeinites have just walked down the corridor, stormed my office and told me I can no longer drink coffee as it makes me a narky sonofabitch when I get stressed and binge on it. They also tried to sell me a copy of Watch Tower.

Jesus! Someone save me!

[Shaki]

Saint Paul said it better;

Those are the rules I stick by. I'm agnostic' date=' although I have dabbled in Christianity and Judaism before now. I've met many people who have had their lives changed by a personal experience of God and for whom God is as real as anything on the material plane. It's not for us to judge their beliefs and perceptions. For the truly faithful (there is a distinction between faith and religion, which often becomes blurred in discussions of this type) to deny the existence of God is as futile as arguing white is black.[/quote']

If people have had personal experiences of God and therefore have that faith then you can't really tell them that they haven't (You could argue that LSD was probably to blame but they may claim that taking the magic potion opened the door to their enlightenment!). It would be like me saying I feel happy and someone telling me no you dont.

Faith is not something that you can argue with words. If a religious argument ever ensues it does seem like a cop out to pull the faith card but if people are convinced within themselves then thats fine by me.

While you are always told that you should respect other peoples religious beliefs, by the same token they should respect yours, or lack of, which many dont. Surely if they have firm convictions of where they are going after they die and know the essential truths of the world, God and life then they should feel quite comfortable in the knowledge that they are right and you are wrong. That is maybe the difference between people with faith and people with religion.

The above may not make complete sense as it has been written between 15 difficult phonecalls at work..FUCK OFF, IM THINKING ABOUT GOD AND SCIENCE AND THE MEANING OF LIFE

[pete_inthehills]

If we're going to discuss faith and religion like grown-ups

WOW! hold on now Davie-boy, discuss like grown ups! You ask too much!

Next you'll be expecting proper spelling, correct use of that flying comma thingy and objective view points.

pete

inthehills

[AKMartin]

While I am tolerant, I believe that religion is the ignorants way of explaining that which they are scientifically unable to understand,

If you dont know how it works, cover it with a fairy story, and explain it as gods will.

So Christians are, by definition, anti-scientific? Hold on till I inform my physicist/geologist/medical researcher Christian friends that they're heretics...

Yours isn't the most well thought out comment. My faith is a worldview and a system of combining belief with action, not just "durr, it's too complicated so let's just call it God's work". Don't patronise me/us.

I agree, most folk just think you to be misguided overenthusastic fools.

However, after several years schooling & various later experiences at the hands of a succession of prize bigots & fundy-fuckwits, I'd tend to make an exception to my usual tolerance for your particular breed of cuntishness.

So because of "your experiences", you're happy to bleat "cunts!" and "fools!".

Spare me this nonsense. Just because someone's an idiot, that doesn't reflect what they believe. Just because millions of Christians might happen to be idiots, doesn't reflect the nature of Christianity or Christ. I've met thousands of cretinous, moronic, irksome, bigoted atheists. I guess you have too.

AKM

[Guest Neubeatz]

So Christians are' date=' by definition, anti-scientific? Hold on till I inform my physicist/geologist/medical researcher Christian friends that they're heretics...

Yours isn't the most well thought out comment. My faith is a worldview and a system of combining belief with action, not just "durr, it's too complicated so let's just call it God's work". Don't patronise me/us.

AKM[/quote']

I use logic to draw my conclusions on religion, you and your friends can believe what ever fairy story you and your friends want, like I say, I'm tolerant,

[Stripey]

You are a fool to worship the deity. For, if he does exist he will surely forgive you for your dereliction, being such a sop in these matters, a meddling milk toast. And if he doesn't exist, why, at the moment of your expiry you will feel an utter ass, the completest of fools. All those hours spent at tiresome tombolas, all those mornings kneeling on lumpy hassocks, all those pathetic agonies - the temporary loss and then short-lived recovery of the small change of faith, faith in a nothing, a nullity, a vacuum.

Personally I think the old chestnut of the rationalist/phenomenological athestic approach is flawed, and something of a schoolkid level cop-out when it comes to discussion of spirituality.

The concept of "faith" itself I think also shows a degree of weakness, for want of a better word. It is surely far easier to be handed a slickly packaged answer to the questions and fears about the nature and source of existence - complete with the security of acceptance afforded by becoming part of a large group of people with the same beliefs - than it is to explore your own inner emotional world and attempt to intuit and develop some conclusions of your own.

To this end, I think atheism is in itself a form of faith, faith in having no faith, faith in the supposed supportive evidence provided by phenomenology. However, any user of psychedelic drugs or schizophrenic patient will know how fragile and easily shattered the thin veneer that is conscensus reality, which rationalist/atheists find comfort in, is.

The atheists perception of reality, the foundation of his faith-in-having-no-faith, is simply a matter of the balance of brain chemistry. A few stray molecules in the blood stream, a disruption of that balance, artificially induced or otherwise, and the atheist might just as easily accept any number of delusionary theories about higher beings and the nature of the universe.

So, this being the case, I think that atheists are no more rational than those with faith in some type of god.

Personally I consider myself to be an agnostic, not devoid of spirituality.

[AKMartin]

It is surely far easier to be handed a slickly packaged answer to the questions and fears about the nature and source of existence - complete with the security of acceptance afforded by becoming part of a large group of people with the same beliefs - than it is to explore your own inner emotional world and attempt to intuit and develop some conclusions of your own

Slickly packaged? Convenient? Easy?

"Is your love declared in the grave, your faithfulness in Destruction?

Are your wonders known in the place of darkness, or your righteous deeds in the land of oblivion? But I cry to you for help, O LORD; in the morning my prayer comes before you.

Why, O LORD, do you reject me and hide your face from me? From my youth I have been afflicted and close to death; I have suffered your terrors and am in despair. Your wrath has swept over me; your terrors have destroyed me. All day long they surround me like a flood; they have completely engulfed me. You have taken my companions and loved ones from me; the darkness is my closest friend."

It's not as playschool or fairytale as most people would conveniently think. And it's not a disengagement from reality, logic, or intuition.

AKM

[Guest Phantomsmasher]

I've never believed in the concept of a celestial being controlling this world, and have found much of the bible, and the notion of organised religion to be fairly abhorrent. It's a crutch like so many other things...

[pogofish]

So because of "your experiences"' date=' you're happy to bleat "cunts!" and "fools!".

Spare me this nonsense. Just because someone's an idiot, that doesn't reflect what they believe.

I've met thousands of cretinous, moronic, irksome, bigoted atheists. I guess you have too.

[/quote']

Yes.

You are quite right, I also know & respect many fine people who are strong in their individual faith - just that they tend not to feel the need to take it to those who are not asking to hear about it.

No, I really don't think I have.

[pogofish]

it's a good idea to acknowledge that not everyone's experience of them is the same.

so how can you justify an intolerant attack on his beliefs

I don't see how a declaration of faith can be perceived as aggressive except to those intolerant of the beliefs of others.

My experience of christian evangelicals of all sorts is that you can barely get a cigarrette paper between them' date=' especially when it comes to a basic level contempt/disrespect for those who don't share their particualr belief.

I'm not attacking his beliefs. Indeed, I fully respect his need to believe whatever [b']he wants. I only take issue with his evangelism.

Plenty of occasions - generally declaring takes some sort of superior, judgemental or assumptive form & often attempts to judge the subject by some inapplicable yardstick or tries implicate the declared-against in some sort of evil, unchristian or immoral act/viewpoint when there is often no justification/disagreement whatsoever. IME it is usually a prelude to an attempt to utterly quash any difference of opinion or to railroad "the only true way!

I'd suggest that is fundamental intolerance?

[Stripey]

Slickly packaged? Convenient? Easy?

It's not as playschool or fairytale as most people would conveniently think. And it's not a disengagement from reality' date=' logic, or intuition.

AKM[/quote']

Yes, an easy solution to spiritual malaise. I find it particularly offensive the way christians recruit among the vulnerable, for example at psychiatric hospitals.

Very easy to quote scripture aswell instead of putting your thoughts in your own words, a habit which obfuscates your own individuality and no doubt contributes towards others perceptions of christians as being emotionally depersonalised.

[AKMartin]

Nobody has been forced into the Christian faith since the conquistadors. Everyone has a choice of whether to accept or reject the Christian message. But Christians are entirely at liberty to share their faith with others as and when they choose, and quite often the emotionally vulnerable become involved in a search for God of their own accord. Believe it or not.

Christians hold a worldview, and they should not feel guilt or humiliation for wishing to share this worldview with others, in a respectful and tolerant manner. The actions of SOME Christians, however, should not be taken as representative of Christianity as a whole, given mankind's propensity towards distortion and tactlessness.

AKM

[Guest Jake Wifebeater]

I find it particularly offensive the way christians recruit among the vulnerable' date=' for example at psychiatric hospitals. [/quote']

Likewise, last time I was in a church was 8 years ago, attending my best friend's funeral after he had killed himself at 21. They cynically tried to use it for recruitment, giving it the old "We're here if you need someone to talk to" line. Err, what about friends and family?

As for the original question, I am a hardcore atheist and I believe in myself. People can believe in a religion if they want, that's their prerogative, but it's also my prerogative to think you're a mug if you do.

[Stripey]

Likewise' date=' last time I was in a church was 8 years ago, attending my best friend's funeral after he had killed himself at 21. They cynically tried to use it for recruitment, giving it the old "We're here if you need someone to talk to" line. Err, what about friends and family?

[/quote']

A friend of mine, a complete atheist, who was being treated for a psychotic episode in Cornhill, re-emerged from the place a couple of months later as a full christian convert. These people have no business filling the heads of people who have just suffered a complete collapse of their personal reality, with their own dogma. It's totally unethical.

[FatHand]

I was brought up in a non religious environment where I wasn't taken to Sunday school to learn about religion. By doing this, I feel like my parents gave me the privilege of choice. They didn't cram anti-religious thoughts into my head, in fact my dad is well read in most religions. I feel that this gave me the ability, when learning about religion at school, to look at it in a very objective way and make an informed choice. I think that many people, from all around the world, are bombarded with religious dogma and moral code from such an early age that it can inhibit rational thought.

How many young children are capable of forming their own independent opinions - in my experience they usually just regurgitate what they have been told. When you tell an impressionable mind something enough times it can easily become ingrained. This is how racist opinions remain, getting past down through generations and social groups, long after they should have been lost.

Although not everything about religion is bad, I think bad aspects or personal ways of looking at religion can easily be ingrained into children. This is the major problem. Religion is something that should be offered to people when they are of an age that they can look at it and make their own choice. It should also be looked at/taught in a way that genuinely studies the reasoning and history, gory, bloodthirsty and good. The real history - not just the bible.

It is difficult to know where to stop spouting your opinion in topics such as these so I will stop here.

[Guest Jake Wifebeater]

A friend of mine' date=' a complete atheist, who was being treated for a psychotic episode in Cornhill, re-emerged from the place a couple of months later as a full christian convert. These people have no business filling the heads of people who have just suffered a complete collapse of their personal reality, with their own dogma. It's totally unethical.[/quote']

That's bang out of order, sounds like they were poised like vultures. On the bright side, it shows how desperate these people are.

[FatHand]

I am non religious