framheim Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 No...not wrong' date=' but it firmly sets it apart from any other form of music, I look at it like painting or sculpture....anyone can do it, but its only art when an artist does it.[/quote']don't get that. surely anyone can be an artist and the only thing differentiating them is those that do and those that don't. i guess you could argue that intent is a big factor but to say a painting only qualifies as art when it's done by an (professional) artist is a bit rubbish. if we can all accept that you don't need formal training or to be a 'professional' musician to make original music on a par with that which is sold in the shops etc then surely we can do the same with art. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Stax Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 don't get that. surely anyone can be an artist and the only thing differentiating them is those that do and those that don't. i guess you could argue that intent is a big factor but to say a painting only qualifies as art when it's done by an (professional) artist is a bit rubbish. if we can all accept that you don't need formal training or to be a 'professional' musician to make original music on a par with that which is sold in the shops etc then surely we can do the same with art.Go buy a 'Vetriano' Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
framheim Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 Go buy a 'Vetriano' Dave haha, well just cause it's shit doesn't make it not art. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Stax Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 haha' date=' well just cause it's shit doesn't make it not art. [/quote']You should have seen some of my degree show a few years ago... (hindsight)Vetriano is an illustrator... And he would most likely be in a covers band making shed loads of dosh and laughing at the 'creative' musicians trying to make buck or two by expressing themselves... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraemeC Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 don't get that. surely anyone can be an artist and the only thing differentiating them is those that do and those that don't. i guess you could argue that intent is a big factor but to say a painting only qualifies as art when it's done by an (professional) artist is a bit rubbish. if we can all accept that you don't need formal training or to be a 'professional' musician to make original music on a par with that which is sold in the shops etc then surely we can do the same with art.Oh come on Dave.....I was only taking the piss.....in fact I was really quoting my son, he made a remark like that during his first year at art school.....whats wrong....not enough smilies for you?....8) ....o_O .... .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
framheim Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 Oh come on Dave.....I was only taking the piss.....in fact I was really quoting my son' date=' he made a remark like that during his first year at art school.....whats wrong....not enough smilies for you?....8) ....o_O .... ....[/quote']hehe, it's cool. it was still a point worth making though i reckon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stripey Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 Yes I'm fully aware that the keyboard is sample based' date=' but your earlier comments gave the impression you were saying that sample and electronically based music was in some was intelectually superior to real instruments and guitar bands nowadays.[/quote']So how is me using a midi keyboard to play and record stuff, any different from you using your sample based digital keyboard? At least I go to the effort of actually creating synth patches from scratch! I'm not saying that there is some kind of intellectual superiority about this - just far greater scope for creativity because a far greater range of sounds, automation and treatments to those sounds are possible, a lot of which simply couldn't feasibly be recreated in a live situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swingin' Ryan Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 So how is me using a midi keyboard to play and record stuff' date=' any different from you using your sample based digital keyboard? At least I go to the effort of actually creating synth patches from scratch![/quote']I don't think there's any difference at all, and I'm not saying that me using a digital keyboard is superior to your use of a midi keyboard. I'm just emphasising that, in my opinion, you cannot really compare someone playing a piece on a piano or a guitar to someone fixing together samples on a computer.The fact your saying that the music you make could not be recreated live makes me think that inputing the sounds does not require as much skill or talent as it would to play the music on conventional instruments. I'll admit my knowledge of creating music electronically is pretty much reserved to some basic drum programming and recording guitars through a digital 8-track, so there may be a lot more musical knowledge required for what you do than I'm giving you credit for, I just feel a lot of electronic music seems to be based more in computer skills than musical knowledge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stripey Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 I don't think there's any difference at all' date=' and I'm not saying that me using a digital keyboard is superior to your use of a midi keyboard. I'm just emphasising that, in my opinion, you cannot really compare someone playing a piece on a piano or a guitar to someone fixing together samples on a computer.The fact your saying that the music you make could not be recreated live makes me think that inputing the sounds does not require as much skill or talent as it would to play the music on conventional instruments. I'll admit my knowledge of creating music electronically is pretty much reserved to some basic drum programming and recording guitars through a digital 8-track, so there may be a lot more musical knowledge required for what you do than I'm giving you credit for, I just feel a lot of electronic music seems to be based more in computer skills than musical knowledge.[/quote']Forget the idea of someone "fixing together samples", that's not what it's about atall in this day and age. What makes you think inputting the parts into a digital composition requires any less skill or talent? Most people use keyboards to do it, as far as I'm aware that's a pretty conventional instrument. As I said earlier people also record parts they play on guitar or sing or use an electronic drum kit, a real drum kit, or use a fucking oboe or whatever else they feel like. You still have to actually play, or if you want to, draw in the individual notes by hand. Computer skills don't come into it atall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swingin' Ryan Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 So if conventional instruments are used to input sound in digital recording, why does it have greater scope for creativity? Is it purely the ability to then manipulate these sounds, as I've heard a lot of people get a vast range of noises out of a guitar (Tom Morello for example, has guitar parts which sound very much like synths, purely from using effects pedals), he also has the benefit of being able to play these live. I know you probably don't see the ability to play live as a benefit, but he still has the option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Milner Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 can any of you show me a piece of electronicaly made music that has as much feeling in as this does?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXYjEMTQRm0i very much doubt it, and to me thats why i far preferr music performed on actual instruments rather than that created on a pc or how ever it is done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stripey Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 can any of you show me a piece of electronicaly made music that has as much feeling in as this does?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXYjEMTQRm0i very much doubt it' date=' and to me thats why i far preferr music performed on actual instruments rather than that created on a pc or how ever it is done.[/quote']That just leaves me cold, it's archaic. Even the guy playing it is old, and it became irritating after about 2 mins or so. The sound of a distorted electric guitar just bores the shit out of me, no matter how expressive the playing is. I've got reams of electronic music that is far more interesting, subtle and nuanced, far more cleverly executed, far more unique, far more expressive, far more emotional, to the extent that a lot of it has an almost cinematic quality to it. If you think electronic music is devoid of feeling, if your only experience of it is house/techno/drumnbass/etc then yer missing out on a great deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MKII Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MKII Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 That just leaves me cold' date=' it's archaic. Even the guy playing it is old, and it became irritating after about 2 mins or so. The sound of a distorted electric guitar just bores the shit out of me, no matter how expressive the playing is. [/quote']You KnOb! There's distorted guitar on my tunes, pfft, cheers STRIPEY!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stripey Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 So if conventional instruments are used to input sound in digital recording' date=' why does it have greater scope for creativity? Is it purely the ability to then manipulate these sounds, as I've heard a lot of people get a vast range of noises out of a guitar (Tom Morello for example, has guitar parts which sound very much like synths, purely from using effects pedals), he also has the benefit of being able to play these live. I know you probably don't see the ability to play live as a benefit, but he still has the option.[/quote']Conventional instruments aren't always used, the key point is flexibility. And yes, the manipulation of sound "offline" offers a huge potential, which you can't reproduce with pedals. If your only experience of digital equipment is a drum machine and an 8track, I'm not surprised you don't really understand how a modern digital studio works. In terms of creativity, remember the fact that you also have complete and total control over the whole song, i.e you are the bass player, the keys player, the singer, the drummer, whatever you want. If you like working on your own you have more opportunity to create what you yourself really want to create. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stripey Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 You KnOb! There's distorted guitar on my tunes' date=' pfft, cheers STRIPEY!!! [/quote']fuck I'll have to delete them from my playlist now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MKII Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 fuck I'll have to delete them from my playlist now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gasss Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 I still think a trowel is better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Gold Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 I still think a trowel is better.Heil Strimmer!If we're going to get into the computer vs conventional musical instruments field, I'd have to argue for the latter. I appreciate the 'pick up and play' aspect of a guitar or a drum kit. I've experimented with layering sounds, and it's the most boring thing in the world. You're always concerned with the finished product. I like to just pick up a guitar, and as Mr Moore demonstrates, simply kick out the jams for a while.Just look at his ancient face! He's fuckin' loving it! Forget sitting in front of a computer listening carefully for the tiniest of note changes. I'm not saying electronic musics bad to listen to, but I'd rather have my fingers lobbed off than go through the process of making it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stripey Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 I appreciate the 'pick up and play' aspect of a guitar or a drum kit. I've experimented with layering sounds' date=' and it's the most boring thing in the world. You're always concerned with the finished product. I like to just pick up a guitar, and as Mr Moore demonstrates, simply kick out the jams for a while.Just look at his ancient face! He's fuckin' loving it! Forget sitting in front of a computer listening carefully for the tiniest of note changes. I'm not saying electronic musics bad to listen to, but I'd rather have my fingers lobbed off than go through the process of making it.[/quote']The whole "pick up and play" aspect is totally present in the digital domain aswell, it can be as free and fluid as you want it to be, if you know your way around the tools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraemeC Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 Isn't this getting so tedious....?Its another debate that there can never be a winner or looser... I for one side with the organic brigade, I have never heard computer based music that makes me smile like BB King can....thats maybe boring and old fashioned for some people, but Stripey you seem to think its wrong to enjoy it..... I say fuck it, a shiny new BMW with all its electronics and computers is fine, its easy to drive it takes lots of the brain work out of driving, with ABS, traction control and electrically adjustable and heated seats but there is nothing like getting behind the wheel of a Mk1 Escort Mexico....simple, functional, and fast enough for most.... **guitar solo from Hotel California fades in** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stripey Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 Isn't this getting so tedious....?Its another debate that there can never be a winner or looser... I for one side with the organic brigade' date=' I have never heard computer based music that makes me smile like BB King can....thats maybe boring and old fashioned for some people, but Stripey you seem to think its wrong to enjoy it..... I say fuck it, a shiny new BMW with all its electronics and computers is fine, its easy to drive it takes lots of the brain work out of driving, with ABS, traction control and electrically adjustable and heated seats but there is nothing like getting behind the wheel of a Mk1 Escort Mexico....simple, functional, and fast enough for most.... **guitar solo from Hotel California fades in**[/quote']Well, I've grown up with electronic music, I identify with it and I have my own list of classics. It's not like I don't appreciate the music of the PAST, but I'm not from the 60's or 70's, im interested in whats new NOW and what it has to offer and the new areas that can be explored. You can't compare electronic music and modern digital production techniques to the example you've given of a car thats a bore to drive. It's still as raw and visceral an experience, as a writer, only with a new set of more powerful tools. It's still a human behind the wheel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
framheim Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 Isn't this getting so tedious....?Its another debate that there can never be a winner or looser... I for one side with the organic brigade' date=' I have never heard computer based music that makes me smile like BB King can....thats maybe boring and old fashioned for some people, but Stripey you seem to think its wrong to enjoy it..... I say fuck it, a shiny new BMW with all its electronics and computers is fine, its easy to drive it takes lots of the brain work out of driving, with ABS, traction control and electrically adjustable and heated seats but there is nothing like getting behind the wheel of a Mk1 Escort Mexico....simple, functional, and fast enough for most.... **guitar solo from Hotel California fades in**[/quote']it's tedious because people won't accept other peoples opinions bar their own. we're all on the same side yet are using different tools. it's not us and them with traditional instruments vs computers, it's everyone creating music using instruments which vary in method yet which are all ultimately doing the same thing. it's just different interfaces.there's very little difference between what the beatles did on sgt peppers to what boards of canada did on music has the right to children, only peoples ears and their preconcieved ideas of what music is. incidentally that gary moore version of red house sucks balls. there's not a whole lot of emotion there for me, it's more of a technical showcase than an emotional song. saying that, people connect to music in different ways which is why there's so much variation in music. altogether now:now the world don't move to the beat of just one drum, what might be right for you, might not be right for some... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Jack Posted April 11, 2006 Report Share Posted April 11, 2006 it's tedious because people won't accept other peoples opinions bar their own. we're all on the same side yet are using different tools. it's not us and them with traditional instruments vs computers' date=' it's everyone creating music using instruments which vary in method yet which are all ultimately doing the same thing. it's just different interfaces.there's very little difference between what the beatles did on sgt peppers to what boards of canada did on music has the right to children, only peoples ears and their preconcieved ideas of what music is. incidentally that gary moore version of red house sucks balls. there's not a whole lot of emotion there for me, it's more of a technical showcase than an emotional song. saying that, people connect to music in different ways which is why there's so much variation in music. [/quote']Very well said, sir. Especially the bit about Gary Moore. *brrrr* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Neubeatz Posted April 11, 2006 Report Share Posted April 11, 2006 I think its a bit west of that.....?(Cool,........ if "west" is "left" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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