anti-NF protest on Monday Oct. 25th

[Guest allsystemsfail]

Now all us ordinary' date=' non-politically active people (voters I think we're called) know where we stand, our opinions are somehow lesser than other peoples just because we've never marched down the street carrying a banner.

[/quote']

Again, you've missed the point I'd made. Sure, I do indeed have a greater respect for those who take political action. However, I did not say that the views such people may express are of any greater value. I simply respect the fact that they're doing shit - that they're not just talking bout shit.

[soundian]

Again' date=' you've missed the point I'd made. Sure, I do indeed have a greater respect for those who take political action. However, I did not say that the views such people may express are of any greater value. I simply respect the fact that they're doing shit - that they're not just talking bout shit.[/quote']

i.e. why would you respect the opinion of a politicaly active person more than my opinion.

Yes I would' date=' coz at least they're doing shit.

[/quote']

However' date=' I did not say that the views such people may express are of any greater value.

[/quote']

Yes you did.

[Rob Karloff]

I'm sorry, but I'm firmly with Ian on this one. If you believe that the average joe's opinion and political belief amounts to less than that of a "politically active" person, then you're an eedjit. That basically means that only the relatively small percentage of the UK and world population who go along to all the nice little marches and debates have an opinion that holds weight. And that would seem to be flying in the face of democracy, somewhat. If you have the right to vote, you have an equal importance of opinion as anyone else does. Simple as that! Personally, I feel the world would be more noticably changed for the better if all those "political activists" used their time to actually *help* people... What gets more "done" : Marching against the "nazis", or devoting your time to help the elderly who fought them?

[Guest allsystemsfail]

Yes you did.

Mabe it's my choice of words.

Take Hobbes. While I disagree with some of his politics, I respect the guy. Where some folks here only talk about their politics, quick to condemn others, he is taking action. He's doing shit. So, I got more time for him.

[Lawy Lawson:Attorney]

Mabe it's my choice of words.

Take Hobbes. While I disagree with some of his politics' date=' I respect the guy. Where some folks here only talk about their politics, quick to condemn others, he is taking action. He's doing shit. So, I got more time for him.[/quote']

This isn't a slight on you, because I actually respect you and Hobbes quite a lot, even though I really don't "get" anarchy (which is down to a unhealthy cynicism about human nature on my part, probably) but I think a lot of people are really, really turned off by political extremism. Marches and the like can often be obscure and exclusive and even though I'm usually at least marginally aware of why or what people are protesting this kind of stuff is baffling to Missus Janet Jones, fighting her way through a crowd of people in George Bush caricature mask to get to MandS before 5.30 or getting pissed off 'cos some kid with dreadlocks is holding up a banner with a ostentacious slogan in front of a no.19 bus.

I'm certainly not saying "don't protest" as I believe it's important, but I've found myself not participating recently because I don't think those who are passionate about politics are winning over the "masses" who, for the most part, don't understand or give a shit. I really don't feel that the "democratic process" is about democracy anymore. I'm burned out. I'll always vote and keep an eye on whats happening, but I'm not going to chant in front of GAP while people ram buggies into me again.

[Guest tv tanned]

This isn't a slight on you' date=' because I actually respect you and Hobbes quite a lot, even though I really don't "get" anarchy [/quote']

I know I might be reading this incorrectly, but I'm not propsing anarchy.

[Lawy Lawson:Attorney]

I know I might be reading this incorrectly' date=' but I'm not propsing anarchy.[/quote']

Sorry, it does read that way. It's just that you too, are very politically active and I wanted to confirm that I respected that. Clumsy writing on my part, my bad.

[Guest tv tanned]

Not to worry chief, I did not point it out as a method of insulting your syntax.

[soundian]

Mabe it's my choice of words.

No, it was my choice of words you chose to interpret in your own way, rather than actually reading the words. If you go back and UNDERSTAND all the words..., maybe a bit difficult cos you're politically active so you've been trained not to see certain combinations of words, try you're best anyway.

NB: politically active seems to be synonomous with "Only hear what they want", "Answer only questions they want, not the ones that have been asked" and "accuse if all else fails".

[soundian]

Take Hobbes. While I disagree with some of his politics' date=' I respect the guy. Where some folks here only talk about their politics, quick to condemn others, he is taking action. He's doing shit. So, I got more time for him.[/quote']

Yet again showing that politically active people are higher up in your esteem than us (politically) inactive plebians.

We're still allowed an opinion though,you can't take that from us.

I thought Hobbes worked for an MP/councillor, surely that's a job and not activism, but he still deserves more respect, cos he's paid to care.

[Flossie T Sheep]

Hey' date=' instead of posting your views here, you could have instead chosen to act - challenging the views expressed by AUAF at the public meeting held just a couple of weeks ago. You could have also attended a group meeting. As I said, throwing baseless insults around this forum is easy. Not convinced of what I said about the ANL and AUAF, you could have come along to a meeting. But did you? No.[/quote']

why does he have to prove anything to you by turning up to a meeting full of people who have similar opinions to you? thats hardly constructive is it?, a bunch of like-minded people preaching their gospels to each other, education only happens when people of different and divisive opinions talk about an issue but it seems like you don't want that from what i have been reading Mr. Allsystemsfail

the problem with activist groups is that they are all too willing to ram their opinions down people's throats and take this authoritarian stance like they're correct and everyone else is wrong, its an invented prejudice disguised in utopian values, this "you're either on our side - the good guys' side or you're not if you don't stand against these things we don't like and if you're not on our side, your life will be shite and not worth living"

i don't see why anyone should have to join an activist group to have their own individual opinion verified and accepted, it wouldn't be so bad if activist groups tried taking their frustrations and focusing them on the correct targets for a change, the government loves groups like the National Front and the British National Party because all of society's ills which are a result of their fuck-ups are ignored because people's attentions are diverted to taking on these shower of skinheaded wankers

sorry but i don't think anyone should have to go to a meeting that basically consists of gangs of the already-converted, nodding dog-headed yes men political activists like yourself to make their opinions more valid, lecturing your point through and through like you do doesn't do anything to educate, it only highlights that your views are as authoritarian as the people you're actually arguing about trying to stop airing their own opinions in public

suppressing someone's individuality isn't exactly debating the issue you're arguing against, you're merely reinforcing it by acting as if you're the authority on the issue itself by trying to argue him down for not acting in a similar way to yourself with regard to the issue, thats hardly constructive at all, thats the problem with the political activism and protests against this issue, you people always end up fighting amongst yourselves when one person decides that they have a different way of thinking to the doctrines you lot set up for yourselves and they then find themselves being singled out and ridiculed by the rest of the group for thinking differently in the first place

its kind of ironic when you think about, Hitler believed in mass uniformity and oppressive behaviour too didn't he?

[Guest allsystemsfail]

why does he have to prove anything to you by turning up to a meeting full of people who have similar opinions to you? thats hardly constructive is it?' date=' a bunch of like-minded people preaching their gospels to each other, education only happens when people of different and divisive opinions talk about an issue but it seems like you don't want that from what i have been reading Mr. Allsystemsfail

the problem with activist groups is that they are all too willing to ram their opinions down people's throats and take this authoritarian stance like they're correct and everyone else is wrong, its an invented prejudice disguised in utopian values, this "you're either on our side - the good guys' side or you're not if you don't stand against these things we don't like and if you're not on our side, your life will be shite and not worth living"

i don't see why anyone should have to join an activist group to have their own individual opinion verified and accepted, it wouldn't be so bad if activist groups tried taking their frustrations and focusing them on the correct targets for a change, the government loves groups like the National Front and the British National Party because all of society's ills which are a result of their fuck-ups are ignored because people's attentions are diverted to taking on these shower of skinheaded wankers

sorry but i don't think anyone should have to go to a meeting that basically consists of gangs of the already-converted, nodding dog-headed yes men political activists like yourself to make their opinions more valid, lecturing your point through and through like you do doesn't do anything to educate, it only highlights that your views are as authoritarian as the people you're actually arguing about trying to stop airing their own opinions in public

suppressing someone's individuality isn't exactly debating the issue you're arguing against, you're merely reinforcing it by acting as if you're the authority on the issue itself by trying to argue him down for not acting in a similar way to yourself with regard to the issue, thats hardly constructive at all, thats the problem with the political activism and protests against this issue, you people always end up fighting amongst yourselves when one person decides that they have a different way of thinking to the doctrines you lot set up for yourselves and they then find themselves being singled out and ridiculed by the rest of the group for thinking differently in the first place

its kind of ironic when you think about, Hitler believed in mass uniformity and oppressive behaviour too didn't he? [/quote']

Point of fact. Several people who attended the public meeting believed the NF SHOULD be permitted to march. Two such individuals spoke from the floor, their contributions receiving much applause. This then prompted the discussion of these issues. Kinda destroys your whole arguement does it not?

You know, this is exactly the thing I've been talking about. Throwing insults from afar is easy. Had folks here believed so strongly that the NF should march, they could have gone along to express this view. It was a public meeting, arranged so that people could say what they felt about this issue. It was open to whoever wanted to attend. But no, they prefer to post here from the safety and comfort of their home.

People do not join activist groups so that their views can be verified and accepted. They do so because they believe passionately, because they want to make a difference. And for your information, those active in opposing the far right are active in many other struggles, targetting government action.

And ramming our politics down people's throats? We've been over this already. Folks such as myself say what we think, and sure, we do so forcefully. But in doing so, I do still welcome discussion, and am open to the views of others. My opinion on several matters - having done further reading and spoken to others on these subjects, have changed. So, you're quite wrong in thinking otherwise. I do not seek uniformity. And no, I am not arguing that others should not be permitted a voice. The far right - those who seek to promote race hate? Well, that's another matter.

And authortarian? Well, that would rather contradict my politics would it not? Anarchists are opposed to authority in whatever form. We also claim no higher ground, believing only our view is correct.

[Flossie T Sheep]

Point of fact. Several people who attended the public meeting believed the NF should be permitted to march. Two such individuals spoke from the floor' date=' their contributions prompting a discussion.

You know, this is exactly the thing I've been talking about. Throwing insults from afar is easy. Had folks here believed so strongly that the NF should march, they could have gone along to express this view. It was a public meeting, arranged so that people could say what they felt about this issue. It was open to whoever wanted to attend. But no, they prefer to post here from the safety and comfort of their home.

People do not join activist groups so that their view can be verified and accepted. They do so because they believe passionately, because they want to make a difference. And for your information, those active in opposing the far right are active in many other struggles.

And ramming our politics down people's throats? We've been over this already. Folks such as myself say what we think, and sure, we do so forcefully.[/quote']

if i want to object to the march, i will do it on my own terms and of my own volition, i ain't looking for people to back me up nor do i have to go to any meetings or protests to prove i am against the march to people like yourself

Cloud doesn't have to do anything to prove he is against the march to you or anybody else so get off the kid's case why don't you?

if people want to make a comment on the march or any issues related to it on the Internet then thats their prerogative and i don't think you're in any position to go berating people for doing so, we're all individuals, let people think for themselves and get down off yer soapbox for once

[Guest allsystemsfail]

if i want to object to the march' date=' i will do it on my own terms and of my own volition, i ain't looking for people to back me up nor do i have to go to any meetings or protests to prove i am against the march to people like yourself

[/quote']

You believe the NF marching is wrong, then you take action to stop them. Folks like myself take action not to PROVE we're against the NF, but because we believe strongly in what we're doing - that we believe fascism is wrong.

[jester1470]

You believe the NF marching is wrong' date=' then you take action to stop them. Folks like myself take action not to PROVE we're against the NF, but because we believe strongly in what we're doing - that we believe fascism is wrong.[/quote']

It's not you doing it people object to, it's the holier than thou 'I'm better than you because I do' attitude. Well done for standing up for what you believe in but it doesn't make you any better than anyone else. I believe fascism is wrong but I don't feel the need to stand up to justify that to anyone, its my beliefs and no-one should look down on you for taking action and you shouldn't look down on someone who chooses to show his opinions in a different way. Being politically active doesn't make you a better person, as someone pointed out Hitler was politically active and believed in what he waas doing, maybe if he'd been more like Cloud then WW2 might not have happened

Cheers

Stuart

[Flossie T Sheep]

You believe the NF marching is wrong' date=' then you take action to stop them. Folks like myself take action not to PROVE we're against the NF, but because we believe strongly in what we're doing - that we believe fascism is wrong.[/quote']

i am sure people can get politically active via the Internet, i'd like to think technology has gotten advanced enough for people to voice their opinions through the Internet without actively participating in protests out on the streets, there are ways and means of protesting against issues that people find offensive without walking down the streets with a placard in your hand and shouting for all the world about it

i think the tact you're taking about people talking about it on a messageboard is rather offensive because you seem to be berating people for not taking the similar actions as you have

like i said, if i want to voice my concerns about fascism then i will do it on my own terms and not the terms you think i should protesting about such issues on

[Guest allsystemsfail]

i am sure people can get politically active via the Internet' date=' i'd like to think technology has gotten advanced enough for people to voice their opinions through the Internet without actively participating in protests out on the streets, there are ways and means of protesting against issues that people find offensive without walking down the streets with a placard in your hand and shouting for all the world about it

i think the tact you're taking about people talking about it on a messageboard is rather offensive because you seem to be berating people for not taking the similar actions as you have

like i said, if i want to voice my concerns about fascism then i will do it on my own terms and not the terms you think i should protesting about such issues on[/quote']

Last post.

I am not berating people for not taking similar action. Just said that I'd have a little more respect for folks if instead of throwing insults at folks here - at people who are doing something, that they themselves took action.

Oh, and posting opinions on the internet gonna change anything. Sure it's something, but at the end of the day it ain't gonna change shit.

[Cloud]

Oh' date=' and posting opinions on the internet gonna change anything. Sure it's something, but at the end of the day it ain't gonna change shit.[/quote']

Uh, has it ever occured to you that I'm mostly happy with the way things are? I don't see why I need to go out there and "change shit" - at the minute, I've read a fuck load on Ireland between 1916 to 1949, and I'm happy to let devolution play out over the next few years - so all in all, i'm pretty damn happy politically.

Why should I need to get out there and "take action" if I don't particularly feel as if there's a need to take action? I occasionally get annoyed about the nanny state, but I just don't feel strongly enough to get out there and do something.

I'm sick of this pesudo intelligensia nonsense where people who think being politically active is the way to change things - eventually, you'll just become part of the system..there isn't much hope to be otherwise in a country that has traditionally been very slow moving and very slow to change - heck, i'm shocked that Scotland is now a six party system rather than a four party system.

[Flossie T Sheep]

Last post.

I am not berating people for not taking similar action. Just said that I'd have a little more respect for folks if instead of throwing insults at folks here - at people who are doing something' date=' that they themselves took action.

Oh, and posting opinions on the internet gonna change anything. Sure it's something, but at the end of the day it ain't gonna change shit.[/quote']

well the only thing i want to ask you is this - why are you posting your opinions on the Internet so much then?

[Guest allsystemsfail]

well the only thing i want to ask you is this - why are you posting your opinions on the Internet so much then?

Why put a question to me when I've already told you I'd made my last post?

But to answer your question, I post here primarily coz of my interest in punk/hardcore. If I see a thread about a topic of political interest, then sure I'll post on it. I don't post here coz I want to affect change.

And that was definately my last word on this subject, so please no more questions.

[Cloud]

hey, do you get right wing punk?

[Flossie T Sheep]

Why put a question to me when I've already told you I'd made my last post?

And that was definately my last word on this subject' date=' so please no more questions.[/quote']

that your last post ever then?

[Flossie T Sheep]

I'm sick of this pesudo intelligensia nonsense where people who think being politically active is the way to change things - eventually' date=' you'll just become part of the system..there isn't much hope to be otherwise in a country that has traditionally been very slow moving and very slow to change - heck, i'm shocked that Scotland is now a six party system rather than a four party system.[/quote']

and i hope for Scotland's sake that party system increases because the more alternative political opinions there is the better;)

[Doc]

I'm with Ian here too. If you vote, you're a political activist. And opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one. I have more respect for an ordinary voter than I do for anarchists like all systems fail who want to tear it all down. Unlike ASF, however, I believe he has the right to his opinion and consider it just as valid as mine and would never seek to deprive him of his platform, like he continually advocates for people or groups that do not share his view. eg the NF, non politically active people, Ian ect.

[soundian]

Last post.

I am not berating people for not taking similar action. Just said that I'd have a little more respect for folks if instead of throwing insults at folks here - at people who are doing something' date=' that they themselves took action.

[/quote']

Not only do you have more respect for people who are politically active, you also think they should be immune from criticism, except by politically active people.

I know you've scarpered but I bet you're reading.