anti-NF protest on Monday Oct. 25th

[Cloud]

If the NF march is not permitted' date=' Aberdeen United Against Fascism (having like the NF made an application to march) still hope to march on Nov. 28th. It is hoped that such an march will be a celebration of Aberdeen's ethnic and cultural diversity, and will become an annual event.[/quote']

oh, for christ's sake...

Aberdeen United Against Fascism are only doing this in order to disrupt the NF march - they're not doing it out of any altrustic reasons. If they were, they'd have applied to hold the march on the 29th so it didn't come into any direct collision with the NF march, but oh nooo, they must smash the fascists!

I'm sorry, but this Aberdeen United Against Fascism mob (who, if they had any real credentials would choose a different name that couldn't be mistaken for the anti-nazi lot) sound as if they're just as dodgy as the rest of the Left organisations who have an agenda against the Right wing. Nothing wrong with the Left wing organisations who merely get on with it and don't bother wasting their time with the NF, but the ones who react are merely gullible fools.

[Cloud]

What is it with you and the left?

What is with you and the right? Why should fascists be stopped but communists not?

A sit-down protest violent? What physical harm is caused?

A sit down protest in front of the Town House' date=' cool - doesn't sound as if it'll bother anyone. Protesting in the form of stopping buses, not cool - it'll bother innocent people who don't give a flying fuck about the ongoing Left versus Right nonsense, like myself.

You'd love to drive through the protest? Rather violent no?

Why not, use illegal tactics against people using illegal tactics

on a serious note, i hope these idiots who are planning on protesting by blocking buses get charged with obstruction and thrown in the cells seeing as Queen Street is just around the corner.

[Cloud]

And so because of isolated scuffles' date=' and yes, the occasional ruck, all marches should not be permitted? The majority of people who protest, do so peacefully. Would you deny them this right?[/quote']

Tricky question - you could say that the majority of people who used handguns prior to Dunblane used them peacefully.

I'm of the opinion that there is no need to block streets in order to protest - why, if a protest was wanted, why not protest on top of the St Nicholas Centre/in front of it?

[Guest allsystemsfail]

oh' date=' for christ's sake...

Aberdeen United Against Fascism are only doing this in order to disrupt the NF march - they're not doing it out of any altrustic reasons. If they were, they'd have applied to hold the march on the 29th so it didn't come into any direct collision with the NF march, but oh nooo, they must smash the fascists!

I'm sorry, but this Aberdeen United Against Fascism mob (who, if they had any real credentials would choose a different name that couldn't be mistaken for the anti-nazi lot) sound as if they're just as dodgy as the rest of the Left organisations who have an agenda against the Right wing. Nothing wrong with the Left wing organisations who merely get on with it and don't bother wasting their time with the NF, but the ones who react are merely gullible fools.[/quote']

Have you been attending AUAF meetings? I have. I'm sorry to disappoint, but it is indeed FACT. The organising group hope that an anti-racist event can indeed take place each year - marking St. Andrews Day, not by preaching race hate, but by preaching tolerance of all races and faiths. Sure, AUAF was set up with the intent of stopping the NF, but it is hoped, as I've said, that if the anti-NF march were permitted, and the NF march not, that it could be used as a celebration of diversity.

Look, I (and others) have already proven to you that AUAF has no link with the Anti-Nazi League. If this were the case, I would have nothing to do with it.

You know, I just wonder whether you'd be expressing these same views were you a victim of racist violence - were you a Muslim, or Jewish. In fact, I wanna put this very question to everyone here who believes the NF should be permitted to march. I've also heard a lot about freedom. What about the freedom to live as you wish without fear - without fear of persecution because of the colour of your skin or sexuality?

[Guest Neubeatz]

Huh.

Sorry if I was being flippant' date=' but I'm tired of seeing the same people argue the same topic on here and actually losing the point of whats important: [b']Stopping asshats assuming power.

Ooops, t'was nothing personal, just a generaliziation... I agree with you there..

[Cloud]

Have you been attending AUAF meetings? I have. I'm sorry to disappoint' date=' but it is indeed FACT. The organising group hope that an anti-racist event can indeed take place each year - marking St. Andrews Day, not by preaching race hate, but by preaching tolerance of all races and faiths. Sure, AUAF was set up with the intent of stopping the NF, but it is hoped, as I've said, that if the anti-NF march were permitted, and the NF march not, that it could be used as a celebration of diversity.[/quote']

What if both marches are permitted? I know in the real world, they won't be - but what's the aim here? the AUAF are blatantly attempting to stop the NF march from going ahead by any means possible - but why can't the AUAF just march on Sunday and celebrate diversity? And hang on - you're preaching tolerance of all races and faiths..what about preaching diversity of political origin? I might think some elements of left wing politics are utterly absurd, but you don't see me trying to ban them - same with unionist politics, i'm completely against the concept of the Union, yet you don't see me trying to ban unionist parties - it's their democratic right to believe in the union between Scotland and England. I might think that the union is hurting Scotland more than it's helping, but I'm not trying to ban it, am I?

Look, I (and others) have already proven to you that AUAF has no link with the Anti-Nazi League. If this were the case, I would have nothing to do with it.

I ask you this - why does the AUAF choose a name in which they could be mistaken for the Anti Nazi League?

You know' date=' I just wonder whether you'd be expressing these same views were you a victim of racist violence - were you a Muslim, or Jewish. This I doubt.[/quote']

I am, actually..I lived in England for 4 years and suffered some pretty awful abuse and had violence directed towards me on a few occasions - and i dare say that if i wasn't able to handle myself at the time, i'd have been left in a pool of blood. I also saw first hand institutionalised racism in the sense that the schools were unwilling to act upon it.

I know what you're trying to say here, but at the end of the day - yes, I accept fully that the NF are a bunch of racists..what I don't believe in is defeating them via anti-democratic measures - put it this way, what's the difference between beating someone up so he's not able to vote and stripping away his rights through the courts?

[Guest allsystemsfail]

What is with you and the right? Why should fascists be stopped but communists not?

The left? Is their motivation racial? No.

Sure, I have a lotta issues with the left. However, we also share many common beliefs.

[Guest tv tanned]

I must say the concept of Aberdeen Senior Citizen's Forum being full of communists is rather hilarious...

You don't have to be a lefty to think the NF should be prevented from marching.

[Cloud]

The left? Is their motivation racial? No.

Dear god, why does it have to be about race? Why are so many people obssessed with the concept of racial equality to the detriment of understanding any other aspects?

You're an anarchist, right?

Let me put it this way - I believe that living in an anarchist state would be utterly hellish - I don't like the idea of living in a country without the State to provide certain functions like education, health care and so on - and so I'd rather have a corrupt state providing those functions and ensuring my quality of life is higher than it would be in a country without the State intefering. Anarchy is therefore about oppressing what I want - should it be banned? Of course not, it's their choice to believe in it.

[Guest allsystemsfail]

What if both marches are permitted? I know in the real world' date=' they won't be - but what's the aim here? the AUAF are blatantly attempting to stop the NF march from going ahead by any means possible - but why can't the AUAF just march on Sunday and celebrate diversity? And hang on - you're preaching tolerance of all races and faiths..what about preaching diversity of political origin? I might think some elements of left wing politics are utterly absurd, but you don't see me trying to ban them - same with unionist politics, i'm completely against the concept of the Union, yet you don't see me trying to ban unionist parties - it's their democratic right to believe in the union between Scotland and England. I might think that the union is hurting Scotland more than it's helping, but I'm not trying to ban it, am I?

I ask you this - why does the AUAF choose a name in which they could be mistaken for the Anti Nazi League?

I am, actually..I lived in England for 4 years and suffered some pretty awful abuse and had violence directed towards me on a few occasions - and i dare say that if i wasn't able to handle myself at the time, i'd have been left in a pool of blood. I also saw first hand institutionalised racism in the sense that the schools were unwilling to act upon it.

I know what you're trying to say here, but at the end of the day - yes, I accept fully that the NF are a bunch of racists..what I don't believe in is defeating them via anti-democratic measures - put it this way, what's the difference between beating someone up so he's not able to vote and stripping away his rights through the courts?[/quote']

First point. Fascists - those who seek to promote race hate, should not be permitted to march. A lotta folks here talk of the NFs democratic right to march. The NF have little interest in democratic practice. They have no interest in the wishes and beliefs of others. They seek only control.

AUAF? The name was thrown up by an individual at the very first meeting. Though there was some disagreement (though I should add that this was not because of any possible link thought with ANL), the name was accepted. Sure, the similarity is unfortunate, but there it is. And hey, as I've said so already on another thread, if you still do not believe me, then come along to a meeting.

Last point. Then I apologize. You should understand that pretty much all of the folks who hold with your view are not a target of the far right, speaking from a position of comfort.

[Guest allsystemsfail]

Dear god' date=' why does it have to be about race? Why are so many people obssessed with the concept of racial equality to the detriment of understanding any other aspects?

You're an anarchist, right?

Let me put it this way - I believe that living in an anarchist state would be utterly hellish - I don't like the idea of living in a country without the State to provide certain functions like education, health care and so on - and so I'd rather have a corrupt state providing those functions and ensuring my quality of life is higher than it would be in a country without the State intefering. Anarchy is therefore about oppressing what I want - should it be banned? Of course not, it's their choice to believe in it.[/quote']

Why does it have to be about race? Well, we are talking about the NF are we not?

Anarchism? The provision of essential services such as schooling, health care, transport etc would not be affected. These services exist not because of the state, but in spite of it. Who made the health service what it is, the education system too? Ordinary working men and women, dedicated to their chosen profession.

If you wanna get a picture of what an anarchist society may be like, then do check out George Orwell's Homage To Catalonia. While not an anarchist himself, Orwell was deeply impressed by what he saw in Spain - by the organisation of the Spanish anarchists.

[Guest allsystemsfail]

And with that, I'm gonna leave this thread. In posting it, it was not my hope that it become a discussion. I posted it only so as to alert those who may be interested in attending such a protest. That's all. You have disagreements with it, then don't go.

[Guest tv tanned]

Or drive a car into it.

That'll be Cloud lining up alongside Brian Venuti then...

[Flossie T Sheep]

I must say the concept of Aberdeen Senior Citizen's Forum being full of communists is rather hilarious...

You don't have to be a lefty to think the NF should be prevented from marching.

and as we know from history, lefties somehow transmogrified into righties and then got so many numbers believing in their cause, they went goosestepping into Poland and starting murdering Jews in their millions all over Europe

lefties also became righties in Russia and China as well as far as history tells us too, socialism and communism turned into totalitarianism

the problem with groups like the NF and the Ku Klux Klan that they when such problems as poverty, crime, disease and violence are highlighted, these people try to look for someone to blame because its easier to find a scapegoat to pin all of the bad things that happen in our country or in other countries on a certain group of people and that doesn't help to solve the problem but make those problems worse and its those poor excuses that just don't wash with me so no, i don't think people who support causes like the NF who are using threats and violence to try and alienate and isolate and even expel from this country should be tolerated in any shape or form

if democracy is the issue here, i say such people should exercise their right to democracy without trying to stop other people's rights to democracy by threatening them out of it with violence and fear

so i agree with what you say there Hobbes, there's a first innit?

god forbid, hope i didn't sound too pretentious there

best wishes,

El Flosso

[Guest tv tanned]

Hey who knows, maybe it's a watershed of sorts?

[Flossie T Sheep]

Hey who knows' date=' maybe it's a watershed of sorts?[/quote']

i doubt that very much, i think the watershed is brimming to bursting point anyway cos lets face it, you've made a habit of turning on the waterworks when people don't see things your way

have a nice weekend anyway me old mucker

yours emotionally

El Flosso

[monkey]

There are some strange notions being thrown around this topic. To add some clarity, if only for my self, I will tell you my opinions on the matter and you can agree or disagree as you see fit.

I believe in free speech and thus the NFs right to speak but I do not believe they have the right to march.

Although I am opposed to everything they stand for I do not believe I have the right to silence them. But I do feel, in disagreeing with them I can and should at every opportunity oppose the racist, homophobic and bigoted views they espouse. Though I support their right to speech, I do not believe they have the right to march for the reason that they do not march to out of a peaceful desire to disseminate their views but because they wish to scare, intimidate and other wise threaten violence against those they would remove from society. Anyone who thinks they are trying to do anything else is ignorant of their motives, membership, or is a liar and possibly a member of such an organisation.

The question then is: Is the NFs freedom of speech greater than the right of those they would intimidate not to be intimidated? The answer I come to is no. How in a (more or less) free and democratic society can we allow a group of people to threaten and intimidate those with a different sexual orientation or darker pigment in their skin? We cannot.

Do I agree with some or all of the views expressed by groups also opposed to the NF march? Of course I do not. But I recognise that what irrespective of who they are I will support them and work with them in seeking stop the NF marching.

[Flossie T Sheep]

Do I agree with some or all of the views expressed by groups also opposed to the NF march? Of course I do not. But I recognise that what irrespective of who they are I will support them and work with them in seeking stop the NF marching.

i think "marching" is an exaggeration, its more a case of "walking with knuckles dragging along the ground" in their case

have a good weekend peeps!

best wishes,

El Flosso

[Guest tv tanned]

i doubt that very much' date=' i think the watershed is brimming to bursting point anyway cos lets face it, you've made a habit of turning on the waterworks when people don't see things your way [/quote']

[Flossie T Sheep]

obviously not an animal rights activist then;)

i think that "flogging a dead horse" image of a cliche is quite offensive, its clearly pornographic, it represents disgusting foul puerile things like bondage and necrophilia and combines the two and i think you should be banned for posting up such a horrifying offence!

but if you want me to, i will indulge in a prolonged squabble with you and pretend its not bothering me or hurting my feelings or integrity while simultaneously scarpering cowardly to the moderators to lock the thread down and asking them to ban you indefinitely and then wait til the coast is clear to say nasty things about you behind your back on these boards and not get banned myself

thats the story i heard that i should follow to make myself appear the "innocent crestfallen victim"

see matey your niche has become a new fashion trend on these messageboards already!, you're like a cyber Gianni Versace!, i believe he became a "gutless f***ot", to quote your good self with regard to a certain friend of mine who made you cry once, after he was shot

i was going to post up an amusing image of a cliche like the risible one you've posted above as well but i couldn't find one for "shitting on your own doorstep" to describe your actions of late

best wishes,

El Flosso

[Guest tv tanned]

but if you want me to' date=' i will indulge in a prolonged squabble with you and pretend its not bothering me or hurting my feelings or integrity while simultaneously scarpering cowardly to the moderators to lock the thread down and asking them to ban you indefinitely and then wait til the coast is clear to say nasty things about you behind your back on these boards and not get banned myself

thats the story i heard that i should follow to make myself appear the "innocent crestfallen victim"

i was going to post up an amusing image of a cliche like the risible one you've posted above as well but i couldn't find one for "shitting on your own doorstep" to describe your actions of late[/quote']

[Cloud]

T

The question then is: Is the NFs freedom of speech greater than the right of those they would intimidate not to be intimidated? The answer I come to is no. How in a (more or less) free and democratic society can we allow a group of people to threaten and intimidate those with a different sexual orientation or darker pigment in their skin? We cannot.

I think essentially, this could be argued in so many ways - what disaspoints me is that anyone who puts up an argument to such a thing is immediately branded a nazi sympathiser.

I'm struggling to put this across in an eloquent way, but what's the difference between the NF and the Orange marches? The Orange marches deliberately provoke the Catholic minority in the United Kingdom - as witnessed by the violence that usually (always?) follows such marches. In my opinion, I would compare the marching down nationalist areas in Northern Ireland to the NF marching - it's offensive towards said minorities. Yet, I don't see anyone calling to ban the Orange marches - is this a case that the NF is an easy target, whereas stopping the Orange parades would result in a massive backlash?

As you say - is the Orange Order's freedom of speech greater than the right of those they would intimidate not to be intimidated? If it is deemed that the Orange guys have the right to march - then equally, the NF have the right to march. It's a human right, it's not a right I agree with however, but I've outlined why elsewhere.

This whole debate is ringed with hypocracisy (sp?) - and in my opinion, the only valid means of protesting against the NF march is to protest against every march.

[Mr. Tristen]

I think essentially' date=' this could be argued in so many ways - what disaspoints me is that anyone who puts up an argument to such a thing is immediately branded a nazi sympathiser.

I'm struggling to put this across in an eloquent way, but what's the difference between the NF and the Orange marches? The Orange marches deliberately provoke the Catholic minority in the United Kingdom - as witnessed by the violence that usually (always?) follows such marches. In my opinion, I would compare the marching down nationalist areas in Northern Ireland to the NF marching - it's offensive towards said minorities. Yet, I don't see anyone calling to ban the Orange marches - is this a case that the NF is an easy target, whereas stopping the Orange parades would result in a massive backlash?

As you say - is the Orange Order's freedom of speech greater than the right of those they would intimidate not to be intimidated? If it is deemed that the Orange guys have the right to march - then equally, the NF have the right to march. It's a human right, it's not a right I agree with however, but I've outlined why elsewhere.

This whole debate is ringed with hypocracisy (sp?) - and in my opinion, the only valid means of protesting against the NF march is to protest against every march.[/quote']

Here here!

Run for priminister. I'll vote.

[Guest Jake Wifebeater]

I think essentially' date=' this could be argued in so many ways - what disaspoints me is that anyone who puts up an argument to such a thing is immediately branded a nazi sympathiser.

I'm struggling to put this across in an eloquent way, but what's the difference between the NF and the Orange marches? The Orange marches deliberately provoke the Catholic minority in the United Kingdom - as witnessed by the violence that usually (always?) follows such marches. In my opinion, I would compare the marching down nationalist areas in Northern Ireland to the NF marching - it's offensive towards said minorities. Yet, I don't see anyone calling to ban the Orange marches - is this a case that the NF is an easy target, whereas stopping the Orange parades would result in a massive backlash?

As you say - is the Orange Order's freedom of speech greater than the right of those they would intimidate not to be intimidated? If it is deemed that the Orange guys have the right to march - then equally, the NF have the right to march. It's a human right, it's not a right I agree with however, but I've outlined why elsewhere.

This whole debate is ringed with hypocracisy (sp?) - and in my opinion, the only valid means of protesting against the NF march is to protest against every march.[/quote']

I'll pretty much go along with that. I find the idea of an Orange March as equally revolting as a Nazi march. Remember it's Nazis, none of this "far-right" euphemisms here, NAZIS. You're right, an Orange March probably wouldn't cause as big a fuss. Religion DOES still hold a disproportionate influence in Scotland, why do you reckon it was only recently that clubs could stay open until 3? Religion is still seen, by far too many, as something which shouldn't be questioned too much. "It's a personal thing, your religion". Bollocks. Not when you try and make it other people's problem.

[monkey]

I think essentially' date=' this could be argued in so many ways - what disaspoints me is that anyone who puts up an argument to such a thing is immediately branded a nazi sympathiser.

I'm struggling to put this across in an eloquent way, but what's the difference between the NF and the Orange marches? The Orange marches deliberately provoke the Catholic minority in the United Kingdom - as witnessed by the violence that usually (always?) follows such marches. In my opinion, I would compare the marching down nationalist areas in Northern Ireland to the NF marching - it's offensive towards said minorities. Yet, I don't see anyone calling to ban the Orange marches - is this a case that the NF is an easy target, whereas stopping the Orange parades would result in a massive backlash?

As you say - is the Orange Order's freedom of speech greater than the right of those they would intimidate not to be intimidated? If it is deemed that the Orange guys have the right to march - then equally, the NF have the right to march. It's a human right, it's not a right I agree with however, but I've outlined why elsewhere.

This whole debate is ringed with hypocracisy (sp?) - and in my opinion, the only valid means of protesting against the NF march is to protest against every march.[/quote']

Your argument is deeply flawed.

I would be in favour of banning the sectarian marches of the Orange order for the very same reason as I would the marches of the NF. The Orange Order march through Catholic neighbourhoods with the express intention of intimidating those communities. Just because this wrong is allowed to take place does not meen we should allow the NF to commit simmilar acts of intimidation.

You suggest "the whole debate is ringed with hypocracisy" but it is not those who would march in the Orange Order who are trying to stop the NF march so it is not their hyporcracy.