Mr. Tristen Posted September 25, 2004 Report Share Posted September 25, 2004 [Controvesy]So, heres what I was thinking yesterday in work when I was badgered into signing a petition sheet I couldn't really care too much about...The democracy you all seem to love demands that all people of all beliefs be given a chance to express their views equally. Even those of you opposed to the gouverment are tolerated your marches and protests and pertitions etc etc. So, maybe the NF believe in very different ideals but surely it's quite a savage hypocracy that simple because their views are a little... unorthadox that they be forbidden from expressing them? If any of you were told you had a right to an opinion so long as you didn't express it you'd kick up an outrage. So whats so different about banning this march?Discuss..[/Controvesy] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ASH Posted September 25, 2004 Report Share Posted September 25, 2004 I do agree with what your saying but most people will use the argument that a lot of their beliefs incite racism, which is wrong in the laws eyes and therefore they should be stopped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted September 25, 2004 Report Share Posted September 25, 2004 Hatred and violence towards a minority should never happen and be promoted in any way or form. THIS IS WRONG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Tristen Posted September 25, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2004 But again one could argue the SNP and their pro-seperation borders on racism against the english? If not racist its atleast extremely nationalist which inevitable encourages prejudices if not direct hatred against others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted September 25, 2004 Report Share Posted September 25, 2004 Do you see people fighting on the streets for this? Dont think so Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.A.R.T Posted September 25, 2004 Report Share Posted September 25, 2004 But again one could argue the SNP and their pro-seperation borders on racism against the english? If not racist its atleast extremely nationalist which inevitable encourages prejudices if not direct hatred against others.the snp thing is totally different. its not racist towards the english, how is wanting to govern your own country racism?i think race differentiation has no place in politics and any party that has this as their main agenda should be silenced.why is it so wrong to stop people trying to insite racial hatred? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Gilman Posted September 25, 2004 Report Share Posted September 25, 2004 should democracy/freedom of speech etc really apply to people who want to take such rights away from others because of their skin colour? dont think so Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawy Lawson:Attorney Posted September 25, 2004 Report Share Posted September 25, 2004 [Controvesy]So' date=' heres what I was thinking yesterday in work when I was badgered into signing a petition sheet I couldn't really care too much about...The democracy you all seem to love demands that all people of all beliefs be given a chance to express their views equally. Even those of you opposed to the gouverment are tolerated your marches and protests and pertitions etc etc. So, maybe the NF believe in very different ideals but surely it's quite a savage hypocracy that simple because their views are a little... unorthadox that they be forbidden from expressing them? If any of you were told you had a right to an opinion so long as you didn't express it you'd kick up an outrage. So whats so different about banning this march?Discuss..[/Controvesy']Just as they have the right to express disdain for ethinic groups, I have the right to express my disdain in them marching. Balance and counter-balance, my friend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Tristen Posted September 25, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2004 Just as they have the right to express disdain for ethinic groups' date=' I have the right to express my disdain in them marching. Balance and counter-balance, my friend.[/quote']Kudos. An argument that makes sense And for the record, I'm not really giving an opinion on this matter, I've avoided it totally, its just... well just pointing out an interesting little flaw basically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest allsystemsfail Posted September 27, 2004 Report Share Posted September 27, 2004 [Controvesy]So' date=' heres what I was thinking yesterday in work when I was badgered into signing a petition sheet I couldn't really care too much about...The democracy you all seem to love demands that all people of all beliefs be given a chance to express their views equally. Even those of you opposed to the gouverment are tolerated your marches and protests and pertitions etc etc. So, maybe the NF believe in very different ideals but surely it's quite a savage hypocracy that simple because their views are a little... unorthadox that they be forbidden from expressing them? If any of you were told you had a right to an opinion so long as you didn't express it you'd kick up an outrage. So whats so different about banning this march?Discuss..[/Controvesy']My opposition to the NF marching involves no hypocrisy. My beliefs, as are those of others who oppose the NF, are not based on the hatred of other races. We are talking about fascists - those whose message may inspire beatings or even murder - whose only motivation is racial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest allsystemsfail Posted September 27, 2004 Report Share Posted September 27, 2004 And for those who want to stop the NF marching in Aberdeen, here is a link: http://www.aberdeenunitedagainstfascism.co.uk It also addresses the arguement that some put forward regarding freedom of expression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen B Posted September 27, 2004 Report Share Posted September 27, 2004 I'm doing an essay on this at uni. Keep it up. I need ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.A.R.T Posted September 27, 2004 Report Share Posted September 27, 2004 I'm doing an essay on this at uni. Keep it up. I need ideas.man that'd suck if the person doing your grades was in the NF! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarmaTsunami Posted September 27, 2004 Report Share Posted September 27, 2004 most of this argument was covered in the original NF thread was it nae? in any case i agree with lawy:lawson.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tv tanned Posted September 28, 2004 Report Share Posted September 28, 2004 Freedom of expression is not an absolute right, and must be balanced against the harms which could be caused as a result.If people are really interested in the concept of banning racists - they should come along to Thursday night's debate at Marischal College on banning the BNP. I'll be proposing it, so come and get the chance to have a say. [/plug] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest allsystemsfail Posted September 28, 2004 Report Share Posted September 28, 2004 There's no legal basis for stopping the march. Sure' date=' they're fascist scum, but they have to have the right to express themselves. Otherwise a dangerous precedent is set, in that those with minority opinions may be prohibited from engaging in the political process. Apart from that, does anyone really think this march is going to have any kind of significant impact? Surely there are are bigger fish to fry than thirty-odd morons stopping traffic on St. Andrews Day?[/quote']So, you believe that groups whose message may inspire beatings or even murder be permitted - whose members have been convicted of racial assault? Local NF organiser Dave MacDonald said recently of Kapil Kumar - President of the Indian Society of North-East Scotland, that "he is living here on borrowed time". You believe such people should not be challenged? And thirty-odd morons? There has been talk of significantly larger numbers with NF supporters from across the UK attending. Ignoring this, it is still imperative that they be stopped. Fascists should have no platform. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest allsystemsfail Posted September 28, 2004 Report Share Posted September 28, 2004 Freedom of expression is not an absolute right' date=' and must be balanced against the harms which could be caused as a result.[/quote']Well said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted September 28, 2004 Report Share Posted September 28, 2004 But isn't "harm" subjective? I think socialism is harmful, and I disagree with the methods used by the "Left" in order to achieve their aims. Does this mean that socialism should be banned? of course not, they have rights and should be allowed to persue their motive, even if I don't agree with it.How many times does it need to be said that banning a march will just cause more problems than letting it go ahead? They banned various Republican and Loyalist terrorist groups in Northern Ireland..what happened? I don't think anyone can seriously say that banning Gerry Adams's voice from being broadcast in the UK did any good whatsoever. Anyway, there wouldn't this outroar if the Communist party wanted to march down Union Street, so why the hypocrisy? Living in a communist state wouldn't be my ideal paradise, that's for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tv tanned Posted September 28, 2004 Report Share Posted September 28, 2004 I think the difference here is in what is espoused.Are you seriously equating Karl Marx and Frederik Engels' Communist Manifesto with The Flame? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundian Posted September 28, 2004 Report Share Posted September 28, 2004 Freedom of expression is not an absolute right' date=' and must be balanced against the harms which could be caused as a result.[/quote'] Laws restricting freedom of expression must be balanced against the harms which could be caused as a result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted September 28, 2004 Report Share Posted September 28, 2004 I'm not comparing the Manifesto with any right wing propoganda - I'm comparing the realities. Communism doesn't work in the vast majority of cases - I can think of two examples where it has worked to a degree - Yugoslavia, because of Tito's iron rule and Cuba because of Castro's desire to see the best for his people. It's been proven time and time again to be a great idea in theory, but a bad idea in practice - and personally, I'd rather not live in a police state. It's a dangerous concept - just as dangerous as fascism, in my opinion. Personally, what worries me more is not the NF themselves, but the people employed to protect them from the violent aspects of the socialists - it seems, on both sides, there's links to some very unsavoury people who wouldn't hesitate to use violence to achieve their aims.Instead of turning this into the usual "should the NF be banned" debate, here's a question. If the NF decided to start supporting projects for white people, fundraising and such like, would you (meaning everyone) be offended? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tv tanned Posted September 28, 2004 Report Share Posted September 28, 2004 White people, in general, are neither disadvantaged nor prejudiced against - so they have no need for an ethnically specific support group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundian Posted September 28, 2004 Report Share Posted September 28, 2004 White people' date=' in general, are neither disadvantaged nor prejudiced against - so they have no need for an ethnically specific support group.[/quote'] What about one which supported people who feel they've been a victim of positive discrimination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tv tanned Posted September 28, 2004 Report Share Posted September 28, 2004 I'd like to see them prove it.And besides that could apply to the people who get let in by positive discrimination as well as those who don't.Also you're not just talking white people, you're also talking able-bodied people and straight people neither of which are enthincally or gender specific. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundian Posted September 28, 2004 Report Share Posted September 28, 2004 I'd like to see them prove it.And besides that could apply to the people who get let in by positive discrimination as well as those who don't.Also you're not just talking white people' date=' you're also talking able-bodied people and straight people neither of which are enthincally or gender specific.[/quote'] That would be the point of such a charity though surely, it would be very difficult to prove. I was talking specifically about positive racial discrimination only but I didn't make that clear so we can just ignore the last part now we understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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