Bigsby Posted September 4, 2008 Report Share Posted September 4, 2008 There's a possibility that Salmond will goad them into abstaining, particularly if the Labour MSP's realise that voting it down will cause them to look even more unpopular than they are in the face of Labour collapse in 2010.Nothing is certain in this parliament, whoever would've thought that the SNP would get the Tories to help them pass a budget two years ago?No, not on this one, Labour abstained on the budget because they were scared that if they had voted it down it might have led to another election. There's no possibility of another election if they vote down this Bill.Also, they are in a much stronger position in that (a) Lots of organisations (CBI etc) have come out and said that the local income tax would be disasterous/unaffordable etc(b) Most of the press and media outlets are going along with this view Analysis: LIT could be the biggest gamble yet - Scotsman.com News© An awful lot of middle class people who aren't particularly wealthy are going to be worse off and will be annoyed once they realise the implications of the changes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
framheim Posted September 4, 2008 Report Share Posted September 4, 2008 before the election i was sold on local income tax but i'm swithering a bit now. while it's great that it seems council tax days are numbered i think we need to be sure we're replacing it properly and not cutting our nose to spite our face. i think one of the problems is that if the snp change their plans even a little bit now then labour will say they're breaking an election pledge. they're kinda stuck into it and can't win either way now. i do think council tax is a horrendously unfair tax though which punishes those who work hard to pay for a nice family home on a lower income than those who perhaps don't see a nice home as their priority. LIT though will mean those who don't have an income and don't need one will avoid paying local tax at all yet still benefitting from the same services. bah. there is no answer i think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigsby Posted September 4, 2008 Report Share Posted September 4, 2008 Unless you're speaking about households including those in the 40p price brackets in which case they'll probably be worse off. In which case I doubt that it will be to the extent that they will be struggling the pay their electricity bill, unlike those sitting below the poverty line whom this will really help.I should preface my remarks by saying that I support the LIT, BUT human nature being what it is, even though those people will be able to comfortably be able to afford the extra, it doesn't mean they will be happy doing so... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigsby Posted September 4, 2008 Report Share Posted September 4, 2008 I've only just started earning a decent wage and I can just afford to my lifestyle (which isn't exactly over the top). With prices as they are, I dont know how people on lower wages do it especially if they have kids. That's not suppose to sound patronising but the thought does terrify me and I think a lot of people genuinely need help just now. Childcare is a complete nightmare. It's something like 40 quid a day, meaning that if you put a kid aged 0-2 in childcare full time you need to find 750 before you do anything else. So unless you are going to earn a lot more than that, it's simply not worth going out to work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Posted September 4, 2008 Report Share Posted September 4, 2008 I admit I don't have a complete understanding of what's being proposed, but is the jist of it going to be that council tax will be replaced by an increase in income tax? If so, then doesn't this hit families with two working parents quite hard? At least with council tax you are paying that tax for your property, with a small discount if you are living on your own. If you're living as a family then will both parents not be taxed extra and end up paying more than they were in council tax previously? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Stu Posted September 4, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 4, 2008 I admit I don't have a complete understanding of what's being proposed, but is the jist of it going to be that council tax will be replaced by an increase in income tax? If so, then doesn't this hit families with two working parents quite hard? At least with council tax you are paying that tax for your property, with a small discount if you are living on your own. If you're living as a family then will both parents not be taxed extra and end up paying more than they were in council tax previously?It's proposed to be an additional income tax to come out through the PAYE tax system. So, whatever you pay now, plus an additional 3% deduction from your gross earnings.Whether or not it will hurt dual income families depends on what band their property tax is currently based on. I suppose that, given local government funds state schools, it might not be considered unfair that families should pay more per household than single people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigsby Posted September 4, 2008 Report Share Posted September 4, 2008 Students are obviously still exempt I assume. You assume wrong, and this is one of the main points the Labour Party are focusing on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted September 4, 2008 Report Share Posted September 4, 2008 You assume wrong, and this is one of the main points the Labour Party are focusing on.At the moment students are exempt from income tax as the majority don't earn enough to go over the tax threshold. Would this LIT have a similar threshold? If not then I imagine most students would only be paying a token amount due to their low earnings.The biggest failing for me is that there are countless oil contractors who earn a fortune that will try and get out of paying by claiming they don't earn any official income because they've all set themselves up as individual companies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Stu Posted September 4, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 4, 2008 I've never really understood why students get a tax free ride anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
framheim Posted September 4, 2008 Report Share Posted September 4, 2008 I've never really understood why students get a tax free ride anyway.they don't. students aren't exempt from council tax, the household merely gets a discount which many assume means the student doesn't pay. in a home full of students then there is no council tax but where more than half the household or more are non-students then it's a discount and it can be quite a paltry one at that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Stu Posted September 4, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 4, 2008 they don't. students aren't exempt from council tax, the household merely gets a discount which many assume means the student doesn't pay. in a home full of students then there is no council tax but where more than half the household or more are non-students then it's a discount and it can be quite a paltry one at that.There are other reasons a working person wouldn't want to live with students, but that's an overriding one! Still, if it is rolled into their tax allowance, it won't effect them in the slightest.As for the self-employed and their wily accountants, yeah that is a big question mark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigsby Posted September 4, 2008 Report Share Posted September 4, 2008 No word yet though if any allowances will be taken into account when calculating the LIT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scorge Posted September 4, 2008 Report Share Posted September 4, 2008 I think it's the same as a single occupation discount (25%). My other half is still classed as a student and when he moves in my council tax bill is remaining the same. I'm pretty confident that's all you get, regardless of how many students there are in the property (as long as one person isn't one).If the property is solely occupied by students (no matter how many) then you get the 100%exemption, and if more than one adult lives in the household and all but one is a student then you get the 25%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scorge Posted September 4, 2008 Report Share Posted September 4, 2008 Aaaaah gotcha! Thanks for clearing that up. Thankfully by those rules, my bill will remain the same once my better half moves in (he's a student, I'm not). Yeah, you'll qualify for it.(I AM on my lunch, by the way. Honest.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigsby Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 Dropped.BBC NEWS | Scotland | Plan to scrap council tax dropped Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 Doing the maths.For: SNP + Liberal Democrats + Margo McDonald = 64 votes.Against: Labour + Conservative = 62 votes.Given the Greens can't be trusted to back the Government in crucial bills, and the fact that they would demand significant, unaffordable concessions to back the bill to the point where they could be relied to vote 'yes' or at least abstain, then it's no surprise that it's been dropped. I suspect the Green fiasco with the budget had a lot to do with this - before, it could be assumed that they could be relied on to do the right thing for Scotland, but now, it seems not.And with the tied vote, the casting vote is always 'no' - so there really is no way that the SNP can get this through the Parliament.Freezing council tax is a savvy move though - if it's frozen for 4 years, I imagine Labour will be forced into either continuing the policy or replacing it with something else, which is a SNP/Lib Dem aim anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigsby Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 Greens have always been against local income tax, they support land value tax or something so they wouldn't have supported it anyway, making your point, as ever, moot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 Greens have always been against local income tax, they support land value tax or something so they wouldn't have supported it anyway, making your point, as ever, moot.So an almost guaranteed 'no' vote then.I'm surprised the SNP and Tories haven't found some common ground on a way of abolishing the council tax (perhaps under the pretence on the part of the Tories that Labour have abused the Council Tax system), to be honest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Stu Posted February 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 Oh well. In light of our ever so slightly bigger economic problems, I think I can live with council tax. I do wonder if they'll even manage to keep council tax frozen at the current amount, as that pretty much amounts to yearly tax cuts and the income will start shrinking and expenditure increasing as this recession kicks in proper.Fun times to be alive! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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