Guest idol_wild Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 I just had an interesting debate with a couple of guys at work regarding the quality of the top two in Scotland compared to the English Premier League. How do you think some of the clubs in Scotland would cope in the English top flight?Personally, I think Rangers and Celtic would sit somewhere slightly above mid-table in their first season, yet the remainder of the SPL would struggle in the Championship.Thoughts?One of the chaps I was debating with is a Celtic fan and he believed that Celtic would be in the top four/five in the English top flight, purely based on the fact his side have done consistently well against English teams in Europe in the past five years. But for me, these are one-off games. But he has a point: we can only really judge upon what has been, so... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camie Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 They cope well in Europe and Celtic reached the quarters last season. So yeh I think they would.Although on saying that, they did get humped 4-1 by Newcastle.Should never happen though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 I'd say they'd be in the top half. I reckon Aberdeen, Hibs and Hearts could stay up in the premiership if they had a good season, they'd certainly hold their own in the championship. Everyone else would struggle in the top flight but do ok in league 1, except Gretna of course. The English leagues are simply not as good as they say they are. Outside of the big 4 the standard isn't that great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RossP Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 Consider how much MORE money that Celtic and Rangers would get if they went to the Premiership. They could build an incredible squad full of World Class players (as apposed to the Sasa Papac and Kirk Broadfoot signings that have been made previously. I have no doubt that both would be pushing for Champions League spots every year.Problem is, that success would be expected instantly. So the likes of Hutton, McManus etc wouldn't come through their ranks and benefit the national team. So I hope they stay exactly where they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest idol_wild Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 The English leagues are simply not as good as they say they are. Outside of the big 4 the standard isn't that great.I'd agree with that to an extent, but sides like Everton, Blackburn, Newcastle, and Aston Villa would be better than Rangers or Celtic over the course of a season. Even teams like Sunderland, Birmingham, and Fulham would be capable of beating the Old Firm four of five times out of ten, I think.Celtic do well in Europe - but I think any team would fair okay if they had 59,000 fervent fans behind them in the home games...these are one-off huge games. Those games suit Celtic.I think most of the SPL would be mid-table Championship at best. Christ, some of the better players from the SPL have struggled to establish themselves at Championship level in recent years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camie Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 I'd agree with that to an extent, but sides like Everton, Blackburn, Newcastle, and Aston Villa would be better than Rangers or Celtic over the course of a season. Even teams like Sunderland, Birmingham, and Fulham would be capable of beating the Old Firm four of five times out of ten, I think.I think most of the SPL would be mid-table Championship at best. Christ, some of the better players from the SPL have struggled to establish themselves at Championship level in recent years.Man City are worth a mention surely?To be fair think about the ammount of money that is ploughed into the Championship teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundian Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 They cope well in Europe and Celtic reached the quarters last season. So yeh I think they would.Although on saying that, they did get humped 4-1 by Newcastle.Should never happen though. I thought they only reached the first knockout round, which is not the quarter finals. Are celtic good in europe? They have a good home record but I think they said on the telly the other night that their recent away form is pl14,W0,D1,L13. Anyway, back to the question,as things stand, before the extra prestige/money kicks in, I'd say the old firm would struggle to reach uefa cup places, maybe a few teams would last the pace in the championship/league 1 and the rest would probably be league1/league 2. gretna would be damn lucky to play anywhere above the BSP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 I am Celtic fan, and I think top 4 or 5 is a bit ambitious. If it did happen I think the main objective would be to avoid relegation first season (though mid-table or a UEFA cup place wouldn't be out of the question), and with the increased spending power go for a Champions League place 2nd season.I can't see it happening though as the majority of English clubs don't want it and probably never will. Don't really want it myself either though it is pretty annoying being out-bid by the likes of Fulham and Middlesborough for players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigsby Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 Remember, Celtic beat both Blackburn and Liverpool on their run to the UEFA cup final, and both over two legs, so not really "one offs".As they stand they would probably be mid table, but the key as Ross pointed out would be all the additonal money they would get from TV. That combined the "global brand" that they each have would no doubt ensure that they would be challenging the top 4 before too long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TR!ΔNGL€ T€€TH Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 It's all about money, Celtic and the scum being in the EPL would no doubt turn them into giants of European football within 10 years, but the Old Firm leaving the SPL would have a massive affect on the income it generates. Scottish football would probably end up resembling Irish football. The Old firm wont be heading down to England any time soon as why would any English club want them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 Are celtic good in europe? They have a good home record but I think they said on the telly the other night that their recent away form is pl14,W0,D1,L13. Those stats are for Champions league games only (not UEFA or CL qualifiers) - still pretty dire though :O Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RossP Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 Remember, Celtic beat both Blackburn and Liverpool on their run to the UEFA cup final, and both over two legs, so not really "one offs".But then Caley beat Celtic the week after Celtic beat Liverpool...We'd destroy the English Premiership! Well... Ross Tokely would hospitalise a few. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest idol_wild Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 Remember, Celtic beat both Blackburn and Liverpool on their run to the UEFA cup final, and both over two legs, so not really "one offs".You're being a tad pedantic, but I meant the tie was a one-off. Sure it was over two legs, but the tie itself was a one-off.I'm glad someone also mentioned Celtic's away record in the Champions League. It's awful. Which is why they'd be nowhere near top four/five in the English top flight. Spanking Aberdeen at Pittodrie is different from trying to get something at the Emirates Stadium.We also reversed the debate a little though. How do you think clubs like Derby, Sunderland, and Wigan would fair in the SPL? I personally think these clubs would end up not far from the gruesome twosome at all. In fact, over the course of a season, would possibly pip them for the title. I was ridiculed by the two guys at work for this notion, should I have been? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottST Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 You're being a tad pedantic, but I meant the tie was a one-off. Sure it was over two legs, but the tie itself was a one-off.I'm glad someone also mentioned Celtic's away record in the Champions League. It's awful. Which is why they'd be nowhere near top four/five in the English top flight. Spanking Aberdeen at Pittodrie is different from trying to get something at the Emirates Stadium.We also reversed the debate a little though. How do you think clubs like Derby, Sunderland, and Wigan would fair in the SPL? I personally think these clubs would end up not far from the gruesome twosome at all. In fact, over the course of a season, would possibly pip them for the title. I was ridiculed by the two guys at work for this notion, should I have been?i wouldnt think they'd win the league; give it a good go but they're english teams who play a different style of football compared to the SPL's rough and ready style and therefore i think they'd struggle to begin with. Just look at how a lot of foreign imports have struggled to adapt to the style of play in the SPL.I see what you're saying, but the SPL is nowhere near as bad as it's made out to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 We also reversed the debate a little though. How do you think clubs like Derby, Sunderland, and Wigan would fair in the SPL? I personally think these clubs would end up not far from the gruesome twosome at all. In fact, over the course of a season, would possibly pip them for the title. I was ridiculed by the two guys at work for this notion, should I have been?Yes. Can I have some of the drugs you are taking please, they must be pretty mind blowing. Celtic effectively beat the English champs Man U over two legs last season, and kept a clean sheet v the European champs over 180 mins. I know we can be a bit Jeckyl and Hyde and don't travel too well in continental Europe (our record on our travels in England is much better), but to say that we (or Rangers) would beaten over a season by English relegation strugglers has no basis whatsoever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigsby Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 You're being a tad pedantic, but I meant the tie was a one-off. Sure it was over two legs, but the tie itself was a one-off.Even using your rationale, they won two "one offs" against Premiership clubs in that run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest idol_wild Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 i wouldnt think they'd win the league; give it a good go but they're english teams who play a different style of football compared to the SPL's rough and ready style and therefore i think they'd struggle to begin with. Just look at how a lot of foreign imports have struggled to adapt to the style of play in the SPL.Erm, do you watch any English football, outside the top four or five teams? They adopt a very similar style of play to some Scottish sides - tall and strong centre-backs who do little other than clear the lines and keep it simple; full-backs lacking finesse but keen to get forward; one tall target man up-front (around which much of the attacking play is based); one smaller, faster striker used as that target man's foil; and fit, workman-like midfielders.It's very physical, very direct, and very rough and ready. It's just slightly more sophisticated. If you want examples of this approach just watch Blackburn, Newcastle, Wigan, Aston Villa, Derby, Sunderland, Fulham, Bolton, and Birmingham.It's just that these sides have distinctly better and fitter players than teams in the SPL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 Yeah outside the top of the premiership the football is rubbish, it's the same style played by the majority of teams up here as well.I think the teams Phil mentioned would win the league or run it close up ere if they had the budget they had down there, but having to live with our TV money I think they'd slot in amongst the other city teams in Scotland and be looking at scrapping for Europe with occasional title challenges and not much else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest idol_wild Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 Even using your rationale, they won two "one offs" against Premiership clubs in that run.Sigh. Basically, my point is I don't believe they could sustain that form over an entire season against English top flight opposition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigsby Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 Fair enough, all I'm saying is that, in Celtic's case anyway, their form against Premiership opposition has been good when they have met in recent seasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest idol_wild Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 Fair enough, all I'm saying is that, in Celtic's case anyway, their form against Premiership opposition has been good when they have met in recent seasons.Yeah I get that, but even the most ardent Celtic fan can't deny their ability to raise their game, especially at Parkhead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 Yeah I get that, but even the most ardent Celtic fan can't deny their ability to raise their game, especially at Parkhead. We beat Blackburn and Liverpool away from home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest idol_wild Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 We beat Blackburn and Liverpool away from home.And you think that's enough evidence to suggest you'd be a major force in the English Premier League? A two-legged UEFA Cup tie? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigsby Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 Yeah I get that, but even the most ardent Celtic fan can't deny their ability to raise their game, especially at Parkhead. I'm a Dons fan, but I just thought that their run to the UEFA cup final was a pretty good achievement, particularly beating two teams from "the best league in the world" along the way, and over two legs so not really flukes. But there's no question that their away form in the Champions League is shocking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundian Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 We beat Blackburn and Liverpool away from home. That was 5 seasons ago though. What have you won away from home in Europe since then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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