Should bands get money for playing gigs?

[Camie]

To gig outside the city and not make a loss you simply have to cut down on expenses such as food(bring your own food cheap from a supermarket that you can eat). Bands should also try make money by selling tshirts and hoepfully that will cover some costs.

[Ross]

I feel that there are a lot of issues made here and some valid points etc. Most small venues that put on act do struggle to recouperate money from gigs and the likes.

If a band is organised/professional and good to work with then I would have no problem paying them. I feel that all bands should be paid in some way for their performance. Truth be known that if you don`t put inthe ground work for your gig in terms of being organised and professional then many promotors won`t book you even for small support slots.

Sometimes it amazes me when a band ends up getting a gig and all they do is stick up a little home made poster in one up and that constitutes their advertising. It is up to the promotor to promote the gig but the band should also take this as an oportunity to promote their band.

For instance I`ve already seen information about Radio Lucifer etc and they`ve not even played a gig yet.

Promotors at grass roots level generally have to put in a lot of man hours to get very little back. Although when it all works out it`s worth it in the end....tupence worth.

[Cloud]

It really depends on the nature of the gig - you can't just say 'yes, they should get paid' or 'no, they shouldn't get paid' unless you consider every little variable there is. The bottom line, as far as I see it, is that the band should get some sort of a share of the profits depending on what they've contributed - it wouldn't be on for a promoter to make 100 from a gig (after all expenses are covered) and then not pay the bands *something*.

As for touring bands playing in small venues - it's a tricky one. Your venue is bound to become more diverse by putting on bands from all over the pace, but you have to pay them enough to make sure that they come back. I don't think there's an easy answer to this question at all, really.

edit :

Sometimes it amazes me when a band ends up getting a gig and all they do is stick up a little home made poster in one up and that constitutes their advertising. It is up to the promotor to promote the gig but the band should also take this as an oportunity to promote their band.

Indeed, this is something that I've never understood. I've heard people whine about how they don't have the money/resources to promote their gig/band properly, but how hard is it to sneak into the IT Centre in Aberdeen College and print off loads and loads and loads of flyers/posters? I bet you could even approach some professional flyer makers and ask them if they'd be willing to give you some in exchange for free advertising for them on the flyer - you might just get a positive 'yes'.

[Guest RomanChoke]

Originally posted by Keilan 303:

24 - 2 hours practice night before -MAYBE AT CAPTAIN TOMS

5 - set of new strings - THATS BULLSHIT, I SNAPPED A STRING ONCE IN ABOUT 8 GIGS

6 - cans of juice drunk at practice (so you don't die) - WHERE YOU BUYING THESE DRINKS FROM??

2 - handful of plectrums - WHAT ARE YOU ON. IS THIS FOR A LIFETIMES GIGING IN ADVANCE

if you're not so lucky to have transport

15 on taxis (both ways) - YOU MIGHT WANT TO FIND A REAL WAY TO TRAVEL

30 on blank CD's to sell at gig (and a whole day wasted copying them, and no ones buying any) - YOU WOULD HAVE TO BE TOTALLY FUCKING OUT OF YOUR MIND ON DRUGS TO ACTUALLY COPY OVER 20 CD'S NEVER MIND 100. USE A MAILING LIST NEXT TIME

20 on drinks at the gig (at some venues, this can consist of as little as a pint each member) - THE ONLY PLAUSABLE ITEM ON YOUR LIST. APART FROM THE FACT THAT BEER DOESN'T COST MORE THAN 3 ANYWHERE IN ABERDEEN THAT PROMOTES LIVE MUSIC

Total money you spent prepping for that gig: 102......for a local gig....and you get 10, net loss -92 - YEAH...RIGHT

Apologies for the capitals but the colour thing on the replier is confusing.

[GraemeC]

Its all very simple really....if you are employed as an entertainment, and there are more punters there than would be if you werent playing...you deserve to be paid....

Several Aberdeen pubs have cover bands playing at weekends and pay them from bar takings....250 is about the starting rate and again it depends how many punters you attract. Its not un common for them to earn 5-600 if they are good.

The problem is that for every band who would make a stand for fair pay there are another ten who are quite happy to continue playing for nothing....?(

[threeornothing]

24 - 2 hours practice night before -MAYBE AT CAPTAIN TOMS

Well yes, some of us don't have the luxury of being able to practice in our houses or pay a monthly charge for a lock up as A. we live in flats B. we aren't in the city for the whole month to make it worthwhile, so yeah, a quick 2 hour practice the night before the gig is essential...they don't call us Inept 303 for fucking nothing....

5 - set of new strings - THATS BULLSHIT, I SNAPPED A STRING ONCE IN ABOUT 8 GIGS

I'd hate to hear a guitar that hasn't had its strings changed in 8 gigs, dunno about you, but my hands get so sweaty whilst playing a gig that it ruins the strings.....also, did you have a spare set of strings after yu snapped that string????

6 - cans of juice drunk at practice (so you don't die) - WHERE YOU BUYING THESE DRINKS FROM??

A band of 3 drinking 2 cans of red bull within 2 hours....

2 - handful of plectrums - WHAT ARE YOU ON. IS THIS FOR A LIFETIMES GIGING IN ADVANCE

2 would only buy about 4 plectrums, again these wear down really easily and once worn down these snap strings very easily and are harder to play with

if you're not so lucky to have transport

15 on taxis (both ways) - YOU MIGHT WANT TO FIND A REAL WAY TO TRAVEL

Still waiting for Scotty to beam me to gigs I know...

30 on blank CD's to sell at gig (and a whole day wasted copying them, and no ones buying any) - YOU WOULD HAVE TO BE TOTALLY FUCKING OUT OF YOUR MIND ON DRUGS TO ACTUALLY COPY OVER 20 CD'S NEVER MIND 100. USE A MAILING LIST NEXT TIME

You never know....back in the day it was easy to sell 50 tapes (and still be asked for more) and sitting through 50 tapes copying was a lot worse than 50 CD's....and tapes cost more to produce than CD's....and also, 20 cd's 10, 20 covers = 20.....

20 on drinks at the gig (at some venues, this can consist of as little as a pint each member) - THE ONLY PLAUSABLE ITEM ON YOUR LIST. APART FROM THE FACT THAT BEER DOESN'T COST MORE THAN 3 ANYWHERE IN ABERDEEN THAT PROMOTES LIVE MUSIC

I weep for those bands with 9 members....

BESIDES.....that wasn't the fucking point, I don't write out an expenses list and give it to promoters....but getting back to the original point, for someone to think bands should be "grateful" for gigs (well, 1 or 2 should be) and that expecting ANY money at all was playing at rock stars....then just remember that its not a free lunch for anyone....sometimes the money isn't even the main concern, its the appreciation that you've done a good gig...for the record, we haven't always been paid huge amounts of money from say The Moorings or Lava (but then we have played to about 5 people) although we've always been asked if we enjoyed the gig, and thanked for playing.....and that alone can recoup the expenses as it feels justified....the audience appreciating your music is a bonus I guess.....maybe thats just cos we suck or aren't flava of the month....whatever, I've probably made 100 in my almost 10 year "career" in music.....but I'm not giving up......

[kirkt]

i personally don't mind playing free gigs and i understand if im doin a gig where money is made that the touring band does make money...however if there is all local bands on and money is made then i would expect something but othertimes, money is nice, we use it towards stickers, badges and stuff but not essential...

i also wouldnt expect money if i was playin in another town...yes diy punk values but music isnt a job its a pleasure and you've got to start somewhere...Tearjerk travelled all the way down to Hull and played a free gig after spendin 200 hirin their van...

also, that estimation of prices is complete bollox. theirs no other way to follow that up...if you dont like it, go join a covers band and play for 100 a night at some shitty pub to a bunch of old men.

because i put on a lot of out of town bands, most local bands only usually get a tenner from doin gigs for me...sometimes nothin, sometimes a lot more but i can honestly say ive never ripped a band off, besides they should be happy their bein offered a gig in first place

[Guest Bob]

Originally posted by kirkt:

Tearjerk travelled all the way down to Hull and played a free gig after spendin 200 hirin their van...

Cripes, why didn't I think of that first?

[Charlotte]

What's worse IMHO are pay-to-play gigs along the lines of 'Stepping Stone' at the cathouse, where you don't have a hope in hell of making your money back.

Bob, if you want to play in Glasgow and get paid, try the student union. You won't get a huge crowd but it's maybe a good way to play your first gig down here.

[Guest RomanChoke]

I dont think our band have ever payed more than 30 in expenses before and there were unexpected problems that arose that day which you haven't accounted for on the list. Bands should be grateful to be payed and I feel that any travelling band not getting paid is ludicrious as they need the money to survive on their tour

[Danny Doubt]

well...i will speak in stupid terms.

You are providing a SERVICE which therefore you should be paid for BUT if you do not put the effort into letting ppl know that your playing and getting them to come along i dont see why a venue should pay you! AND therefore your a bunch of lazy wankstains!

an Mr. Christie i totally agree i know with you, i know drummonds struggles sometimes thats why we took less money

[threeornothing]

So I guess the conclusion of this is....that if you're fucking minted and don't mind wasting money and can drive, you're sorted....you may be the shittest band ever, but you can play gigs anywhere....

And if you're 16, not much money, just left school, don't have a rich mummy and daddy and they have no car...you're fucked....great encouragement for new bands....

[Flash@TMB]

Originally posted by GraemeC:

Its all very simple really....if you are employed as an entertainment, and there are more punters there than would be if you werent playing...you deserve to be paid....

Several Aberdeen pubs have cover bands playing at weekends and pay them from bar takings....250 is about the starting rate and again it depends how many punters you attract. Its not un common for them to earn 5-600 if they are good.

The problem is that for every band who would make a stand for fair pay there are another ten who are quite happy to continue playing for nothing....?(

Let me shed some light on this...

When we took over The Moorings Bar, the previous owners had bookings arranged for the next 12 months. Those were all with the top local covers bands. The charges for those bands were 150-300 depending on how many people palyed in the band. It works out at 50 per band member. There was no charge at the door, and the bands were paid out of bar takings. The bands had to be paid regardless of whether 10 people showed up of 100 people showed up.

If a band cancelled then the bar would be pretty much deserted. I recall one weekend night not long after we took over with just 7 people in the bar. OUCH! Takings were so poor without a band that the bar would make a significant loss. With a band, the bar would usually break even or slightly better, but not always. The competition at that time also had bands on. Not because they wanted to, but because they were damned if they didn't.

Over the course of 2 years we modified the bar to the extent where people came regardless of whether we had a band on. If you make the effort then people will come. This was bourne out late last year when we went through a spell of 11 straight weeks without any live music on Saturdays (due to bands cancelling I may add - you know who you are). The drop in takings was only 100 for the entire day. We were actually busier through the daytime because there was no soundcheck.

In order to pay a band 200 you need to be taking at least 400 extra once you take product costs into account, so we were down 300 by paying a band. HA! This didn't stop covers bands trying to raise their prices though!

Nowhere short of Chicago Rock is paying bands much over 300. I know because I talk to the other bar and club owners.

There is also a flipside to the costs thing. The bars and clubs with PA have an enourmous expense. When a good quality 100W HiFi can cost 5000 how much do you think a 5000W PA costs? Little wonder that at least one venue charges for use of theirs!!! Then there are stages, monitors, curtains, carpet, lighting rigs, mics, those mic stands that are treated like shit but cost 80 each... and last night I had 8 of them on stage - we're lucky if mic stands last a year.

The people that must foot the bill are the people that want to see live music.

The solution for The Moorings Bar was to use promoters. Promoters are entitled to charge at the door. All this money goes to the promoter, and the promoter must cover their own costs (and I know that like bands and venues the promoters also have operating costs), and pay the bands. The more people that come through the door, the more the everyone gets paid . None of the door charge goes to the bar.

But yes I do agree that EVERYONE deserves to get paid. The door charge system is fairest. There is still a small risk to the venue in that less people might come in due to the door charge. But I'll let you into a secret, those are mostly people you wouldn't want in the bar anyway ie neds.

BTW with regards to covers bands, look at the punters that those venues have to endure. One night 18 months ago, the replacement costs for all the glasses that were broken came to over 100. Leave the covers bands to Claire's, Bundys, etc...

Flash

[Guest Scorge Spike]

Originally posted by Flash@TMB:

BTW with regards to covers bands, look at the punters that those venues have to endure. One night 18 months ago, the replacement costs for all the glasses that were broken came to over 100. Leave the covers bands to Claire's, Bundys, etc...

Flash

I hope you're not telling me all the covers/tribute bands that come your way only lead to a trail of destruction, because that's not the case - we certainly don't. Trouble is, the only way I could prove my point is by having you book us, and no-one in thier right mind would do that.

As for the topic, I think you should only get paid on the criteria that a) you're actually any good, and b) if there's a hungry mob of friends happy to pay the door fee to supplement your income. Whether you like it or you don't, music is a money consuming business, and I think anyone who starts up should know that. (We play mainly for the fun of it, but are aware that we might have to bankroll it ourselves, and payment when a half decent crowd turns up is put down as a bonus.)

People complaning about the cash element should just put up and shut up, or just piss off, because nothing's going to change....

[Danny Doubt]

where is the place bundys? i got a random bloody txt from someone saying play a song get a free pint on a sunday or summin...godknows?!

[Flash@TMB]

Originally posted by Scorge McBrain:

I hope you're not telling me all the covers/tribute bands that come your way only lead to a trail of destruction, because that's not the case - we certainly don't. Trouble is, the only way I could prove my point is by having you book us, and no-one in thier right mind would do that.

Not all of them, just one in particular I'd rather not mention any names, but let's put it this way... they are the only covers band I know of that has a tribute band formed in it's honour??!?

Flash

[Ross]

Spinal Tap?

[Flash@TMB]

Originally posted by Danny Doubt:

where is the place bundys? i got a random bloody txt from someone saying play a song get a free pint on a sunday or summin...godknows?!

For your own safety and sanity I should probably withhold the information that it used to be Betty Burkes and is located in Langstance Place. I believe it's a similar vibe to pre Flash & Laura era Moorings.

Before we refurbished we held a rock jam every Sunday evening. Unfortunately there were certain issues relating to the house band. Ultimately we were forced to bar the drummer for his second public tantrum, and they've moved up? to Bundy's. This is a good solution that works well for all parties.

Fortunately nobody is irreplacable, and we now intend to host a new formt jam/open mic session on Sundays. This will kick off a little earlier, and be more open to other bands coming in to play. I've recruited a new house band that fits better with the type of thing we want to do.

I'll post more details soon.

Let me know how you get on at Bundy's - just don't don't expect Moorings standard sound LOL.

Flash

[Flash@TMB]

Originally posted by Ross:

Spinal Tap?

Ross I am really dissapointed that a man of your experience would be unaware that Spinal Tap played original material heh heh.

The band I am referring to are a local covers band that have become such an institution (or is that so institutionalised?) that someone formed a tribute band in their honour. If you'd like to book either then I'll gladly pass on their details. I also have a copy of their most recent CD, perhaps you'd like to play it at Bondage. This I'd pay to see. If you get negative comments concerning G&R and The Shamen then just wait till they hear this

Our particular favourite is 'Basket Case'. It's the only version that a group of pensioners can (and do) do the 'slosh' to.

Flash

[Ross]

Break Like The Wind ..

[Paulscoconutass]

I don't really mind because it depends on how you look at it, with me, i didn't really care about money at my first few gigs. But then it began to mount up and it was starting to get on my tits. However if you're playing gigs you know ther's a line between exposure and caring about getting paid, you win some and lose some and shouldn't really care about money - just getting a chance to spread your music. Nowaday's we only play gigs spaced out and if we're lucky enough to get decent line-ups and turnouts and usually break even.

I rekon that if you put in the effort with practicing and care less about the money it's going to end up working in your favour. You'll eventually build up a decent following and the venue should begin making enough profit to give you it back. However if you turn up and all you care about is money, then it's kind of stupid being in a band and you'd be better off working.

[chris h]

I've always felt that as long as there are people turning up and paying to watch live music there should be some payment for the bands. I mean, no one comes to watch the bar staff (well, not normally!) but they get paid if no one turns up!

Personally, i don't object to getting no money if there's a really bad turn out, it's a free gig and we've agreed to do it for free, or it's for charity. Otherwise, if a promoter has booked bands and is charging on the door they should at least give you a token payment, just whatever they can manage. It usually makes bugger all difference financially (apart from paying for the next round), and none of us are in it for the money anyway, but i think it's a good gesture if there's been some money taken on the door that the people who are actually up on stage entertaining (or terrifying) the crowd should get something.

There's no point being unreasonable - we once played a gig where the turn out was so poor that the promoter filed for bankruptcy next day, so we weren't too fussed about not getting payed then! Still, in such cases part of the blame surely lies with the promoter? I mean, if you stick on three out of town bands on a Tuesday night and charge 4 on the door, no one's gonna come, but is that the bands fault?

I don't know, there has to be some give and take between bands and promoters, because at this level we're all kind of in it together. Apart from promoters who give you a gig on the condition that you sell fifty tickets or more than turn off their phone for three weeks and don't put up posters. But i digress... and anyway, that sort of shit doesn't happen too much in Aberdeen anyway.

Anyway, the person who made the comment that inspired this whole thread, if they are in any way involved with putting on local gigs they should perhaps consider doing something else with their time.

So, don't do pay to play, play free gigs only if you're happy not getting paid, and if you play a gig where money is being taken on the door you should always look for a payment, however small, and not have to feel like a pretentious rock star asshole for doing so.

[ghost]

Expenses suck. But if you're booked to travel to another city to play a gig they should cover your transport costs and it should come out of the promoters takings BEFORE the split. He'll do the same with whatever expenses he incurred for posters & promo, so why shouldn't the bands get the same (within reason of course, why should someone pay for a taxi to the venue when there's a perfectly good bus service or the chance of a car/van share with another band?). If they're expecting you to play for nothing or (horror) pay for play - then tell them where to go unless you've just won the lottery.

Out of all the bands I've been in over the last 9 years none of them have ever been more than 50 in profit. However, go solo - you suddenly don't need to hire practice rooms & transport is a breeze, even by bus. I managed to wipe out all the debt incurred by the bands this way. The DIY ethic helped a lot though - home made CDs sold at gigs, merchandise and posters (printed on the sly at work) cut my expenses down to less than 5 a gig once I'd done a bit of research on suppliers. Don't drink away your fee either - it's a round-about way of playing a gig for absolutely nothing - it could have helped you pay for a better quality demo to ensure you get a higher fee and more punters through the door next time...

So, in summary: YES.

[Rob Karloff]

Yes, bands should be paid something.

What? Well, that depends on a number of factors, most of which have been mentioned already, and on the promoter of the gig. I think that local acts are lucky in this respect in that even a really amateur or new band will get some cash from Dr Drakes at least, even if only their mates come along. Dr Drakes realises that bands should be paid, and also know that they well make money on some nights and loose money on others. In general, the door money gets split between the bands, and if it's not "enough" then they maybe subsidise it a little from the bar takings.

How do any band gig outside their home town though....?

My answer is that you have to offer something different that will grab people and get them keen to come to a gig with you on the bill. For Karloff, I guess that's the horror theme, the stage show, and the variety of music we play. Not many other bands do this combination, and we've also worked hard to build up a reputation that has spread from the gigs we've done in the central belt and England. Ergo, a promoter gets to hear a few comments from friends or gig-goers about us and they look us up and organise something. We can provide them with a good idea of what they'll get from us, and what we expect from them. So, I work out the real costs of us doing the gig (fuel, van, etc), and we negotiate. If it comes up a little short we may quite possibly still do the gig, and hope to either make up the shortfall from merch sales or use some of the profit from other gigs to plug the hole. But, we all expect to make some personal sacrifices when it comes to costs like rehearsing, strings, amps, repairs, etc. The main thing is that the outlay isn't too excessive and it's worthwhile because you enjoy playing in a band!

So, if you want to make the thing work, then expect to spend loads of your own time and cash doing so. But, everything in life takes effort and sacrifice to get started. You just accept that it will be worthwhile and maybe, just maybe, you'll eventually make the hard work pay off. If all you can offer a promoter is some plain metal, punk, rock, emo, whatever show, then expect to be laughed at as it's nothing they can't get locally. Standing out on your own is hard to engineer, but that's what you have to make happen.

[Flash@TMB]

one thing I'd like to add

In this thread I've already posted the economics from the venues perspective relating more to 'proper' gigs. BTW IMHO a 'proper' gig constitutes an installed PA, a stage, a lighting rig, and a sound engineer. So if you've had to hire a PA, and are located halfway up the fire escape, in front of the toilet door, and behind a plant pot then no it's not the real thing LOL! No doubt I'll get flamed for that

A few months back I posted information on what to charge a bar for the typical pub rock type deal. So in the event that someone is seeking to play The Tilted Wig, Claire's, The Rusty Nail, or Bundys then you know what the going rates are and how to deal with the bar owner

Anyhow, back on topic...

At The Moorings Bar we operate a policy where bands are only charged cost price throughout the day from drink, from the time they arrive to setup and soundcheck until the time they leave. This applys to band members only.

I see no reason why a venue should ever seek to charge a performer full price - especially where there is gate money involved.

So if you push the venue for one concession, then make it cost price drink. Now you might be wondering why not FREE drink... heh heh believe me a bar will only ever make that mistake once!

For reference, cost prices are usually in the ballpark of 1 for a pint, 70p for a nip & dash, 30-40p for a large soft drink. Much less if it's a big chain (but those are unlikely to have a means of discounting - YEAH RIGHT).

It might be best to make this approach via the promoter though. Venues that are using promoters are probably seeking to avoid any direct dealings with the bands.

Hope this helps.

Flash