nullmouse Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 Some good comments above, and today's strike action is as a result of the Universities and Colleges Employers' Association failing to even meet and unconditionally discuss the current pay dispute. This dispute comes from a pledge by the employers to invest a third of the billions of pounds worth of government funding in employees - A promise that UCEA has subsequently reneged on.Working within a university is still a job, despite any personal pleasure or reasons why people persue it as a career. Knowing the stale and unfair pay conditions puts off a lot of potential staff from considering University teaching as a career, and those that do persue it are hardly motivated by the lack-lustre prospects for pay in the long-term. PhD graduates taking up the first hurdle of working within universities are commonly paid over £10,000 less per annum than those seeking employment in the private sector - Current conditions make universities unfit to compete for employees. This is before you even consider how much of a holy grail permanent job contracts are within Universities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
666 Posted March 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 Pay & conditions. The usual.i heard it was something trivial like "there is not enough toilet roll". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam_b Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 Most people are in the same boat - deal with itThats a disgusting and deplorable attitude to take. Most African Americans wer ein the same boat in the 1950s - does that mean that they should have 'dealt with' low pay, intimidation and prejudices? f course this is vastly different but i'm sure you can see the parallels.the company i work for says we have the right to join a union but in the same sentence says they don't recognise any uk trade unionsYou could maybe join a union such as the IWW - they're worldwide.proving you are worth more - by working hard not striking. I'm sure bosses go around every lecturer and go 'oh look, he's working hard, i'll give him a pay rise'. Bollocks they do.As Dave says, it is your right to be part of a union and be able to strike. We should be supporting the lecturers in their action rather than mocking them. They don't like being out on strike any more than those who are possibly inconvenienced by it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
666 Posted March 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 union: "if you don't meet our pay demands we'll work better and harder than we've ever done"employer: "you wouldn't dare"union: "watch us!"haha! i'm so unconstructively childish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulscoconutass Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 like i said - it's a vocation. you don't go to be a teacher cos it's well paid. you do it for the job satisfaction and the holidays.You honestly think that they get almost 5 months off a year? That's borderline idiotic. Most lecturers spend their 'summer time' updating their publications, writing books and doing research; that's where they get the big-bucks from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swingin' Ryan Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 I'm all for giving the University lecturers more pay, but from my experience, I think secondary school teachers are simply more deserving of pay increases.When I was in secondary school, I had teachers who were often covering up to three classes at a time (including advanced higher classes and seriously misbehaved children), often having to spend breaks marking as they'd had to spend their free periods covering classes and looking after children on detention. They were generally run ragged and yet still (most of them) were always attentive and helpful.At University (and I am fully aware this is not representative of all lecturers), I've seen lecturers stroll into seminars 15 minutes late because they've been getting a coffee and then offering no explanation or apology, and I've then missed buses because they've stuck the time on at the end. A tutor showing me around got lost (in his own department), and then asked us for directions, and I once had to hang around for 3 hours for a seminar at the end of the day, to find it was a mistake on the timetable that even the receptionist knew about, but the lecturer had gone home early and forgot to mention it.I'm not saying they don't deserve a pay increase, I think anyone who devotes their life to education or health should be hugely rewarded, but if anyone in education deserves it then it's secondary teachers. Bear in mind, that lecturers teach people who (on the whole) want to be there. It's pretty rare to hear of a lecturer being punched, kicked and spat on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nullmouse Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 I'm all for giving the University lecturers more pay' date=' but from my experience, I think secondary school teachers are simply more deserving of pay increases.[/quote']They may well be, but University lecturers are already paid less than secondary school teachers. From the sounds of it, the difference may be the 'danger pay' for dealing with the secondary school mob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swingin' Ryan Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 They may well be' date=' but University lecturers are already paid less than secondary school teachers. From the sounds of it, the difference may be the 'danger pay' for dealing with the secondary school mob [/quote']Bearing in mind that, as Paulscoconutass said, most University lecturers also make a lot of money from things like research, publishing books etc. Most Secondary teachers do not have this extra income as it's difficult to do all that in 2 months of the year. Secondary schools teachers job also essentialy contains child care, it's very rare that a lecturer has to stop a lecture because there's students giving each other 'dead arms' and writing their names on the desk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hon Jonda Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 Whilst sitting at work beavering away rather slowly I heard that they are only just getting around 30 thousand and could be getting a lot more if they went to the private sector or so said the union rep on the radio. So why dont they go to the private sector then? 30 thousand is only a little amount after all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nullmouse Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 Bearing in mind that' date=' as Paulscoconutass said, most University lecturers also make a lot of money from things like research, publishing books etc. Most Secondary teachers do not have this extra income as it's difficult to do all that in 2 months of the year. Secondary schools teachers job also essentialy contains child care, it's very rare that a lecturer has to stop a lecture because there's students giving each other 'dead arms' and writing their names on the desk.[/quote']Very few university lecturers make money out of writing books, even those that do require several years (if not decades) worth of work or research to be in the position to do so. Research only pulls in money to fund more research, or to employ more staff - It doesn't augment a researcher's or lecturer's wage in any way.I don't doubt for a minute that secondary school teachers have a hard job, but I take it they've replaced the desktops in the Art Lecture Theatre on Old Aberdeen? The hall-wide Looney Tunes graffiti was my favourite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swingin' Ryan Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 Very few university lecturers make money out of writing books' date=' even those that do require several years (if not decades) worth of work or research to be in the position to do so. Research only pulls in money to fund more research, or to employ more staff - It doesn't augment a researcher's or lecturer's wage in any way.[/quote']To be fair, I've started a totally different debate here. If the question is 'Do University lecturers deserve more pay', I'd 100% agree that they do, they're a totally vital part of society. I just think that in my experience, lecturers have a pretty easy time of it when compared to Secondary teachers.I don't doubt for a minute that secondary school teachers have a hard job' date=' but I take it they've replaced the desktops in the Art Lecture Theatre on Old Aberdeen? The hall-wide Looney Tunes graffiti was my favourite.[/quote']I'm at RGU so I don't know, the only real bit of graffiti I've seen there is someone who's simply scrawled the word 'Apathetic' on edge of one of the floor skirtings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nullmouse Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 To be fair' date=' I've started a totally different debate here. If the question is 'Do University lecturers deserve more pay', I'd 100% agree that they do, they're a totally vital part of society. I just think that in my experience, lecturers have a pretty easy time of it when compared to Secondary teachers.[/quote']Yeah, sorry I trailed off on that tangent! I agree with you too, secondary teachers are a highly commendable lot. A friend of mine shadowed a secondary school teacher to see if he'd be able to take that jump from universities to schools. He dediced that the answer was a most resounding 'no'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Temple Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 I knew when I read the title of this thread, it would make me say something stupid like: an un-unionised worker is worse than a paedophile. The 6 people I saw outside Schoolhill are not to be mocked, they are heroes, Well, no, actually, they're just doing what every person with any sense of community should be doing. Just like those few folk who will demonstrate against our troops being kept in Iraq at uni next week. I don't agree with their cause, but they are still far greater human beings than the maker of this thread and those which will inevitably mock them, by default. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
666 Posted March 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 my grandpa once said to me: "Boy. If you're not throwin' the Rock of Discontent, then you ain't protestin'!" after he said that, he started shaking his index-finger at me vigourously, then promptly proceeded to dying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
historicrocker Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 I'm all for giving the University lecturers more pay' date=' but from my experience, I think secondary school teachers are simply more deserving of pay increases.When I was in secondary school, I had teachers who were often covering up to three classes at a time (including advanced higher classes and seriously misbehaved children), often having to spend breaks marking as they'd had to spend their free periods covering classes and looking after children on detention. They were generally run ragged and yet still (most of them) were always attentive and helpful.At University (and I am fully aware this is not representative of all lecturers), I've seen lecturers stroll into seminars 15 minutes late because they've been getting a coffee and then offering no explanation or apology, and I've then missed buses because they've stuck the time on at the end. A tutor showing me around got lost (in his own department), and then asked us for directions, and I once had to hang around for 3 hours for a seminar at the end of the day, to find it was a mistake on the timetable that even the receptionist knew about, but the lecturer had gone home early and forgot to mention it.I'm not saying they don't deserve a pay increase, I think anyone who devotes their life to education or health should be hugely rewarded, but if anyone in education deserves it then it's secondary teachers. Bear in mind, that lecturers teach people who (on the whole) want to be there. It's pretty rare to hear of a lecturer being punched, kicked and spat on.[/quote']I disagree. A bit. Somebody who devotes their life to education of health should have made that choice mostly on the principle of helping people. Rewards should not be a primary incentive and that's what they seem to be becoming. I agree that most lecturers don't give a crap and the intimacy of a high school teacher with their pupils is much greater than with a lecturer. And the dedication... lecturers don't really have much on their plates compared to the constant assignments and class exams of high school. And university lecturers are better paid? That's a little screwy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nullmouse Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 I disagree. A bit. Somebody who devotes their life to education of health should have made that choice mostly on the principle of helping people. Rewards should not be a primary incentive and that's what they seem to be becoming. I agree that most lecturers don't give a crap and the intimacy of a high school teacher with their pupils is much greater than with a lecturer. And the dedication... lecturers don't really have much on their plates compared to the constant assignments and class exams of high school. And university lecturers are better paid? That's a little screwy.University lecturers aren't better paid, and most lecturers also have to deal with the stress and strain of running a successful research lab that pulls in the money for the university too. This means most senior researchers and lecturers are constantly battling to pull in the money that justifies their existence at the institute, which relies on a succesful research lab and a fully trained group to do that work - It's a whole extra set of conditions that high school teachers don't have. I'd disagree that most lecturers don't give a crap - those that can't give a rat's ass piss me off royally considering the amount of effort myself and many of my colleagues make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemonade Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 They should be thankful for what they've got, people would kill for a job that pays as well and has as good conditions as theirs and all they can do is stand outside and moan about it, fuck them, lazy cunts, if they don't want to work then they can fucking well trade places with somebody who's got a degree and is having to work as a bin man or a road sweeper because they can't get a better job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemonade Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 did i miss a meeting where we moved time back to the 60's and punk never happened? Yeah, because well off, middle class, stuffy old guys in suits... that's what punk was about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DustyDeviada Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 At University (and I am fully aware this is not representative of all lecturers)' date=' I've seen lecturers stroll into seminars 15 minutes late because they've been getting a coffee and then offering no explanation or apology, and I've then missed buses because they've stuck the time on at the end. A tutor showing me around got lost (in his own department), and then asked us for directions, and I once had to hang around for 3 hours for a seminar at the end of the day, to find it was a mistake on the timetable that even the receptionist knew about, but the lecturer had gone home early and forgot to mention it.[/quote']Sounds familiar, I know of at least one lecturer at Aberdeen who actually lives in London but compresses his work into Tues/Weds/Thurs so he can spend the rest of his time down there.Let's face facts, being a university lecturer is just an excuse to wear cords, tweed jackets and sandals and pick up horny 18 year old blonde undergraduates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
historicrocker Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 University lecturers aren't better paid' date=' and most lecturers also have to deal with the stress and strain of running a successful research lab that pulls in the money for the university too. This means most senior researchers and lecturers are constantly battling to pull in the money that justifies their existence at the institute, which relies on a succesful research lab and a fully trained group to do that work - It's a whole extra set of conditions that high school teachers don't have. I'd disagree that most lecturers don't give a crap - those that can't give a rat's ass piss me off royally considering the amount of effort myself and many of my colleagues make.[/quote']This brings up the real issue then. The university should be paying the lecturers to lecture rather than to research. It would be far more efficient to pay the staff to do specific jobs rather than either do poor research because of lecture timetables or poor lecturings because they get so wrapped up in research. The way the university employs its staff puzzles me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nullmouse Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 This brings up the real issue then. The university should be paying the lecturers to lecture rather than to research. It would be far more efficient to pay the staff to do specific jobs rather than either do poor research because of lecture timetables or poor lecturings because they get so wrapped up in research. The way the university employs its staff puzzles me.I have to disagree with this, given that lectures are just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the employment structure of the university. The bulk of the research is orchestrated by lecturers who oversee labs which are predominantly run by senior postdocs (who also take on teaching load, but aren't creditted for it) who pretty much oversee the junior postdocs (those with PhDs on the first wrung of the career ladder). All three tiers are underpaid - Plus only the lecturer has a permanent contract from the university.It's rare to see a lecturer actually in the lab, doing wet work - In pretty much all cases they will be writing publications (not the sort that supplement income), grant applications and project ideas - Tasks which generate money for employees, student projects (PhDs, MScs, even honours projects) and a heap of cash for the university. Given the amount of knowledge they have to have in a specific area, it seems logical that they'd be the best people to lecture on it.Some universities do employ people to only lecture (like RGU, for example) but these tend to be post-1992 universities formed from polytechnics. All 'old' universities use the scientific reputation of their lecturing and teaching staff as a pull for funding and students. If you're just a lecturer and perform no research, there's no renown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pogofish Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 Yeah but most folk dont get it - striking is shit. same as the firefighters. do a better job and you'll be rewarded..Come-on!Uni staff (at all levels) have met & in fact exceeded a succession of increasingly strict govt-imposed performance targets & in recent years yet their pay still lags significantly. Never mind the other funding reviews, job-cutbacks & upcoming implementation of the Framework agreement which could well be another excuse to hold-back salaries even further. Also for most, the "holidays" simply mean a move to a different type of work. Stuff they can't get on with during teaching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pogofish Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 i heard it was something trivial like "there is not enough toilet roll".There is never enough of that! Bring back Izal! :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pogofish Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 Yeah' date=' because well off, middle class, stuffy old guys in suits... that's what punk was about.[/quote']Middle calss? Some maybe but by no means all.My Father began his career as a shipyard apprentice & never thought he would stand a chance at getting a Uni place - his lot were about a Red-Clyde as you can get. My uncle worked in a paper mill for many years & again, nobody from his side thought of themselves as Uni material. He eventually went stellar in his field but not in this country.Plenty of the folk I work with today are from equally working-class backgrounds & you clearly have little idea of how much & what sort of work they had to do to get there & to support themselves whilst doing it, anyway. Often it makes having an ordinary job seem the easy choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DustyDeviada Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 My Father began his career as a shipyard apprentice & never thought he would stand a chance at getting a Uni place - his lot were about a Red-Clyde as you can get. My uncle worked in a paper mill for many years & again' date=' nobody from his side thought of themselves as Uni material. He eventually went stellar in his field but not in this country.[/quote']Luxury. I had to get up in the morning at ten o'clock at night half an hour before I went to bed, drink a cup of sulphuric acid, work twenty-nine hours a day down t'mill, and pay t'mill owner for permission to come to work, and when we got home, our Dad and our mother would kill us and dance about on our graves singing Hallelujah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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