Frosty Jack Posted March 5, 2004 Report Share Posted March 5, 2004 Originally posted by spellchecker:This made me think. For deaf people, all they have is silence - yet they are surrounded by vibration, much of which they still feel. I can't begin to think what it would be like to be deaf, but I imagine your perception of vibration would change radically (well, if you were once hearing and became deaf). It's like when someone is approaching you from behind, and you can feel them before you can see or hear them. It's not always sound. Evelyn Glennie (deaf percussionist) once explained to me how she hears music. Apparently she's just really sensitive to vibration, and 'hears' different notes in different areas of her body - low frequencies towards her feet, and higher frequencies up toward her head. She's so sensitive to it she can tune drums waaay better than I ever could... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragudave Posted March 5, 2004 Report Share Posted March 5, 2004 Hence: sound, silence and sonic vibration Reminds me of a King Tubby or Lee Perry album, where space and silence are just as important as music or beats.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundian Posted March 6, 2004 Report Share Posted March 6, 2004 Originally posted by Frosty Jack:Evelyn Glennie (deaf percussionist) once explained to me how she hears music. Apparently she's just really sensitive to vibration, and 'hears' different notes in different areas of her body - low frequencies towards her feet, and higher frequencies up toward her head. She's so sensitive to it she can tune drums waaay better than I ever could... She must be mega-sensitive then. I worked for her once and asked a question while her back was turned to me. She answered the question in about 1-2 seconds, before anyone who could hear answered it. She couldn't have read my lips (although I've heard people praising her for her ability to lip-read) so how did she know what I said if she's 'profoundly deaf'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emma Posted March 6, 2004 Report Share Posted March 6, 2004 Originally posted by Camie:Tone Row or Atonal music. We had to that in music I think just to appreciate it and its cool how different and weird it sounds. Yeh everyone has there own opinion on music which means they wont like certain types but doesnt mean you cant appreciate it. Baroque for example. Im not a big fan of it (especially when the harpsicord plays), but I appreciate the various techniques in it that has influenced many composers. yeh like in serialism. tone row and all that. inversions and retrograde can sound pretty cool though. I find 'musique concrete' pretty scary! very different to everything else though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael MacLennan Posted March 6, 2004 Report Share Posted March 6, 2004 Originally posted by soundian:She must be mega-sensitive then. I worked for her once and asked a question while her back was turned to me. She answered the question in about 1-2 seconds, before anyone who could hear answered it. She couldn't have read my lips (although I've heard people praising her for her ability to lip-read) so how did she know what I said if she's 'profoundly deaf'. Because while she may be profoundly deaf, she's not completely deaf. Apparently some people in the deaf community get annoyed that she gets referred to as just being 'deaf', when she does have some hearing left, very limited though it may be... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RF Scott Posted March 6, 2004 Report Share Posted March 6, 2004 art does not have to be man made, its all about perception.hence, music is about perception.that is my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Jack Posted March 6, 2004 Report Share Posted March 6, 2004 Originally posted by soundian:She must be mega-sensitive then. I worked for her once and asked a question while her back was turned to me. She answered the question in about 1-2 seconds, before anyone who could hear answered it. She couldn't have read my lips (although I've heard people praising her for her ability to lip-read) so how did she know what I said if she's 'profoundly deaf'. She's not deaf in the sense of living in complete silence. She's not even able herself to explain how she 'hears' but says she doesn't differentiate between hearing and feeling. I can't comment on your experience, but from what I know of her I can't believe she's fooled everyone.This is interesting and relevant to this thread -http://www.evelyn.co.uk/hearing.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundian Posted March 6, 2004 Report Share Posted March 6, 2004 Originally posted by CliveRavensby:art does not have to be man made, its all about perception.hence, music is about perception.that is my opinion. Art:human skill and work as opposed to nature. That's my dictionary's opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Philip Posted March 6, 2004 Report Share Posted March 6, 2004 I am not claiming this to be RIGHT, but this is my definition of MUSIC(at least for the time being).It fails, but so does the dictionary definition in my eyes, so...Using the starting point, after some quick research in to the subject, that only humans can hear/feel something as music, this just about covers all eventualities of what music might be!Feel free to pick away at it, pointing out what you consider to be wrong or right.Music: A human perception of Sound, silence and sonic vibration.1)Sound is what you would hear as a result of a physical action whether intentional, unintentional or by natural occurrence.2)Silence is what you would hear as a result of no physical action whether intentional, unintentional or by natural occurrence. 3)Sonic vibration is what you would feel as a result of a physical action that produces sound whether intentional, unintentional or by natural occurrence.Hmmmmmmmm! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundian Posted March 6, 2004 Report Share Posted March 6, 2004 Originally posted by Philip:I am not claiming this to be RIGHT(at least for the time being) buit this is my definition of MUSIC.It fails, but so does the dictionary definition in my eyes, so...Using the starting point, after some quick research in to the subject, that only humans can hear/feel something as music, this just about covers all eventualities of what music might be!Feel free to pick away at it, pointing out what you consider to be wrong or right.Music: A human perception of Sound, silence and sonic vibration.1)Sound is what you would hear as a result of a physical action whether intentional, unintentional or by natural occurrence.2)Silence is what you would hear as a result of no physical action whether intentional, unintentional or by natural occurrence. 3)Sonic vibration is what you would feel as a result of a physical action that produces sound whether intentional, unintentional or by natural occurrence.Hmmmmmmmm! Why is the dictionary wrong. Language is a group of symbols to get across ideas, art is the group of symbols which tells you something is made by humans rather than nature. If you want 'music' or 'art' to mean something other than that, you'll have to find other words or make some up. And all sound is 'sonic vibrations'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Philip Posted March 6, 2004 Report Share Posted March 6, 2004 Originally posted by soundian:Why is the dictionary wrong. Language is a group of symbols to get across ideas, art is the group of symbols which tells you something is made by humans rather than nature. If you want 'music' or 'art' to mean something other than that, you'll have to find other words or make some up. And all sound is 'sonic vibrations'. The dictionary definition is to hung up about harmony and rhythm, I just think it fails to cover all aspects of music as I know it.Some people do not hear intentional music as music, does this mean it isn't music? I used (sound/sonic vibration) to cover both how a person who can hear perfectly and how someone who is deaf(I know it's not as straight forward as that) would experience music. The hearing person would be more aware of hearing sound, but be less aware the vibration/feeling aspect , where as a deaf person would be more aware of the vibration/feeling of sound, but less aware of the hearing aspect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moshulu Rob Posted March 6, 2004 Report Share Posted March 6, 2004 is the intent to create it more important or is the perception of the resulting sound more important? I favour the latter, that by definition any sound/lack of sound that someone defines as music, is, by definiton music, because someone hears music in the sound. Be it teacups smashing or neds fighting, or that ridiculous 4 minutes of silence that was played on Radio 1 the other day, the composer defined it as music so it was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundian Posted March 6, 2004 Report Share Posted March 6, 2004 Originally posted by Philip:The dictionary definition is to hung up about harmony and rhythm, I just think it fails to cover all aspects of music as I know it.Some people do not hear intentional music as music, does this mean it isn't music? I used (sound/sonic vibration) to cover both how a person who can hear perfectly and how someone who is deaf(I know it's not as straight forward as that) would experience music. The hearing person would be more aware of hearing sound, but be less aware the vibration/feeling aspect , where as a deaf person would be more aware of the vibration/feeling of sound, but less aware of the hearing aspect. My dictionary clearly states music is an art. Art is man-made. If they can't hear music as music it doesn't matter, as long as it has been created with the intention of being music, it is music. I see why you made the distinction but all sound is vibration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moshulu Rob Posted March 6, 2004 Report Share Posted March 6, 2004 But Photograpy is classed as an art, and that is just making a record of something someone can see at that time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Jack Posted March 6, 2004 Report Share Posted March 6, 2004 Originally posted by Moshulu Rob:that ridiculous 4 minutes of silence that was played on Radio 1 the other day, the composer defined it as music so it was. 4 minutes 33 seconds?http://music.research.home.att.net/4min33se.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundian Posted March 6, 2004 Report Share Posted March 6, 2004 Originally posted by Moshulu Rob:But Photograpy is classed as an art, and that is just making a record of something someone can see at that time Your getting confused between photography and holiday snaps. Correct me if I'm wrong, but photography as an art relies on composition, lighting etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Philip Posted March 6, 2004 Report Share Posted March 6, 2004 Originally posted by Frosty Jack:4 minutes 33 seconds?http://music.research.home.att.net/4min33se.htm With this, the unintentional and ambient sounds, in effect, became the music.I could record the sounds outside my window, put it out as a cd: The music of Life from an open wondow, is this music? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moshulu Rob Posted March 6, 2004 Report Share Posted March 6, 2004 Originally posted by Frosty Jack:4 minutes 33 seconds?http://music.research.home.att.net/4min33se.htm Thats the one. I'd class that up there with unmade beds, Blank Canvasses, and empty rooms, and pretty much everything that's won the Turner Prize as pretentious art school wank, but still art/music.*Then I am a English heathen* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moshulu Rob Posted March 6, 2004 Report Share Posted March 6, 2004 Originally posted by soundian:Your getting confused between photography and holiday snaps. Correct me if I'm wrong, but photography as an art relies on composition, lighting etc. So if I record naturally occuring sounds, paying attention to how I do it, that I capture the sounds I want, and that the levels of the sounds are correct does that make the non man made, naturally occuring sounds music?For me it's less about the method of creating the art/music, because you can only ever guess what was going on in the artist/musicians head when they created/captured whatever they did. It is the simple fact that someone says 'that is art/music' that makes it art/music Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Philip Posted March 6, 2004 Report Share Posted March 6, 2004 The other thing about the dictionary definition is that it has changed over time, it isn't definitive... If it was, people/philosphers/musicoligists etc wouldn't be questioning it's meaning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundian Posted March 6, 2004 Report Share Posted March 6, 2004 Originally posted by Moshulu Rob:is the intent to create it more important or is the perception of the resulting sound more important? I favour the latter, that by definition any sound/lack of sound that someone defines as music, is, by definiton music, because someone hears music in the sound. Be it teacups smashing or neds fighting, or that ridiculous 4 minutes of silence that was played on Radio 1 the other day, the composer defined it as music so it was. If the intent is to create music,then it must be music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundian Posted March 6, 2004 Report Share Posted March 6, 2004 Originally posted by Moshulu Rob:So if I record naturally occuring sounds, paying attention to how I do it, that I capture the sounds I want, and that the levels of the sounds are correct does that make the non man made, naturally occuring sounds music?For me it's less about the method of creating the art/music, because you can only ever guess what was going on in the artist/musicians head when they created/captured whatever they did. It is the simple fact that someone says 'that is art/music' that makes it art/music If you're choosing what to record, the sounds that you want, then yes, it could be classed as music. If you are making a choice about which sounds or the duration of the sounds, then there is conscious choice, making it man-made.(cf photography as art) If you just turned on a recorder and recorded whatever was happening, all you would have would be a recording.(cf holiday snaps) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moshulu Rob Posted March 6, 2004 Report Share Posted March 6, 2004 Originally posted by soundian:If you're choosing what to record, the sounds that you want, then yes, it could be classed as music. If you are making a choice about which sounds or the duration of the sounds, then there is conscious choice, making it man-made.(cf photography as art) If you just turned on a recorder and recorded whatever was happening, all you would have would be a recording.(cf holiday snaps) But If I played the recording back to you, without telling you how, exactly, I recorded it, and said 'This is Music' is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundian Posted March 6, 2004 Report Share Posted March 6, 2004 Originally posted by Philip:The other thing about the dictionary definition is that it has changed over time, it isn't definitive... If it was, people/philosphers/musicoligists etc wouldn't be questioning it's meaning. The dictionary defintion is definitive for this time and this culture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundian Posted March 6, 2004 Report Share Posted March 6, 2004 Originally posted by Moshulu Rob:But If I played the recording back to you, without telling you how, exactly, I recorded it, and said 'This is Music' is it? If you believed it was music, who am I to argue. It's your creation and if anyone should know what it is, it's you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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