Israel?

[Hog]

Ok, I have never really followed what has gone on in Israel regarding the conflict, could you possibly give me a quick explanation and your view on the situation. It does strike me to be a very petty conflict which causes death, however, I could be totally wrong. Please explain, thanks

Hog

[Michael MacLennan]

Because obviously, of all the places you can look and books you can buy, the freakin' WASTELAND is where you're going to be informed of the complex situation and how it developed over the last 50-odd years...

[Chris]

there was an excellent documentary on BBC 4 last night called the 50 years war which looked at the conflict from both sides and had interviews with ex presidents, prime ministers and foreign ministers involved at the time.

But really I dread to think what this thread is going to spawn...

anyway for a good starting point try the wonderful wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab-Israeli_conflict

[Guest tv tanned]

But really I dread to think what this thread is going to spawn...

me also, I'd get your padlock ready, just in case...

[Guest Main Agent]

Well, itchy trigger fingers, eye for an eye, promised land, hollywood, facist ethnic cleansing, the percieved guilt of those who failed to stop hitler,a little play written by some activists in russia regarding a fictional zionist plot, and greed, and power, and, just why is americunt trying to kill all iraqs police by making them AQ targets.....

Oh yes, that pipeline from iraq to israel might just need a mention too,

Hate + Fear...

[Hog]

Because obviously' date=' of all the places you can look and books you can buy, the freakin' WASTELAND is where you're going to be informed of the complex situation and how it developed over the last 50-odd years...[/quote']

Hehe, surely there are some people here who can provide a decent explanation even although a lot of people here are total gimps

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

there was an excellent documentary on BBC 4 last night called the 50 years war which looked at the conflict from both sides and had interviews with ex presidents, prime ministers and foreign ministers involved at the time.

But really I dread to think what this thread is going to spawn...

anyway for a good starting point try the wonderful wikipedia:

Shame I didnt see that. Ah well.

[Knight of Swords]

This is biased towards Israel, because I learned the history of this war from Jewish sources. It starts to become less biased when I start taking things I remember from the news and rely less on what I read. It should at least give some impression of the history, without delving too deeply into the politics of the war.

---------

The root of the whole thing stems from the Torah, which describes Israel as the Jewish Holy Land and Promised Land. Zionism (which began about 100 years ago), is a movement to create a Jewish state in Israel, which obviously with Jews being spread throughout the world, means for it to be possible, many Jews would have to move back to Israel.

It really picked up after WW2, as there were obviously a lot of displaced Jews in Europe, who either had no home or refused to move back to areas where they had been persecuted. Britain, at the time, controlled the area where Israel is situated and invited Jews from around Europe to move to Israel. At this point it was still under British control.

I'm a little bet sketchy on the details here, but I think shortly after the end of WW1, Britain endorsed the idea of a Jewish state in Palestine (by this point, there were maybe 20,000 Jews in that area) but reneged on this idea at the start of WW2. However, with the influx of Jews to the area over the period of the Third Reich and after WW2, Britain came under increasing militant pressure from Zionist groups in Palestine and lost a grip on the situation.

The British decided to pull out and proposed a partition plan to divide Palestine between the Arabs and the Jews, with Jerusalem coming under UN control, as a kind of neutral zone. it was accepted by the UN but the Arabs rejected it. The Jews accepted it and proclaimed the birth of the State of Irsrael in 1948. Six Arab countries attacked Israel, were beaten and lost a lot of land the partition would have granted them. Israel started expelling Arabs from the annexed territories.

The parts that are fought over nowadays, the West Bank and Gaza Strip (and Golan Heights and the Sinai Peninsula), were annexed by the Israelis in 1967 (the six day war). They basically launched a successful pre-emptive strike against Egypt, who were massing troops on the border and blockading an Israeli port. However, the areas that they annexed, they had also annexed about ten years before, but had been forced to give back by the International Community. There were undoubtedly tensions and plenty of border incidents, but it's highly likely that Israel were happy for this to persist as they could use it as an excuse to annex the areas they'd failed to hold ten years before.

Nowadays, the situation is heavily unbalanced. The Israelis have far too much money for the Palestinians to compete. This causes two things. Firstly, suicide bombings - one of the few viable attack methods that Palestinians have against Israelis. Secondly, Arabs have been forced to recognise Israel as a nation.

The Peace Process is a difficult one. In fact, I can't mention it without being heavily biased.

[Knight of Swords]

I've decided to add a bit to that which is entirely my opinion and not historical fact.

The Peace Process is being forced through by the Americans, who want the area to settle down whilst they're in Iraq. The Israelis cooperate because they don't want to look like the bad guys, but they're quite happy for the situation to continue because as long as they are under threat from Palestinians, they feel justified in holding onto the Gaza Strip and West Bank (note this situation where Israel will give the Occupied Territories back when they stop being attacked, instead of stopping the attacks by giving the lands back - this is the main reason why I don't trust the Israeli motives).

The Arabs in general recognise that they can't get rid of Israel and are ready to accept it as a nation state. However, every time the Peace Process seems to be gaining momentum, the Arabs attack the Israelis. I don't think it's the Arabs who are actually doing this. Basically, the Israelis have nothing to lose from a continued state of war, but plenty to gain. The Arabs are are in the oppositte position.

Everyone knows who Cardinal Richelieu is and all that's happened is they've taken his ideas a stage further.

[Guest pop-notmyface]

i made a pinky promise to visit friends in Israel.

quite frankly, i'm terrified.

[Hog]

i made a pinky promise to visit friends in Israel.

quite frankly' date=' i'm terrified.[/quote']

Your brave

[Guest pop-notmyface]

Your brave

no really, i don't think i can follow through with something like that!

[framheim]

there are some relatively safe areas of israel though aren't there? the main trouble tends to be near the settlements, jerusalum and tel-aviv. just don't go throwing stones at soldiers.

see here for travel advice on israel:

http://www.fco.gov.uk/servlet/Front?pagename=OpenMarket%2FXcelerate%2FShowPage&c=Page&cid=1007029390590&a=KCountryAdvice&aid=1013618385504

[Guest Main Agent]

OK, America is Israel's puppet.

[Guest MerryChristmas]

i made a pinky promise to visit friends in Israel.

quite frankly' date=' i'm terrified.[/quote']

Last year I visited a friend(arabic israeli) in Herzlia, went for a few day trips. Its not that bad we were advised to put a British or Scottish flag on the car and to take some things for negotiating with like whisky and cadbury chocolate.

It really is a lovely place

[ben_1903]

Middle East Situation for dummies - (includes myself)

Palestinians live in Palestine

Israelies come in and say "Oi, this is our holy land"

Palestinians are persecuteed for years, and many resort to suicide bombings

years pass......

Israelies starting to pull our of Gaza Strip.

and all that.....

[jimr]

Oh dear.

[Guest pop-notmyface]

Last year I visited a friend(arabic israeli) in Herzlia' date=' went for a few day trips. Its not that bad we were advised to put a British or Scottish flag on the car and to take some things for negotiating with like whisky and cadbury chocolate.

It really is a lovely place[/quote']

the place i got an invitation for is Kiryat Ono, is that a safe?

[Guest b-bert]

the place i got an invitation for is Kiryat Ono' date=' is that a safe?[/quote']

surely its easier to ask the person who invited you.

[Guest pop-notmyface]

surely its easier to ask the person who invited you.

i don't want to offend them you know...

[Guest b-bert]

if you explained your feelings in a calm manner i'm sure that they would understand.

[Knight of Swords]

Everytime someone in Israel is killed because of the fighting, you hear about it in the news, which is really what worries people (same thing that people are afraid of flying, because you always hear about plane crashes in the news. People forget that planes don't really crash very often).

It happens a lot in Israel compared to here, but it's not like an open-pitched battle. I doubt you have anything to worry about, although I probably wouldn't take the bus anywhere.

[Knight of Swords]

Middle East Situation for dummies - (includes myself)

Palestinians live in Palestine

Israelies come in and say "Oi' date=' this is our holy land"

Palestinians are persecuteed for years, and many resort to suicide bombings

years pass......

Israelies starting to pull our of Gaza Strip.

and all that.....[/quote']

If we're going down the black and white line, don't forget that the Arabs supported the Nazis during the war.

[Afro Droid]

If we're going down the black and white line' date=' don't forget that the Arabs supported the Nazis during the war.[/quote']

Again, that's an issue that's far more complicated than "Arabs supported the Nazis during the war". The Arab states were struggling (and still are to an extent), to find their feet in the modern age, and the ideologies of those in charge in the middle east fit better with the Nazis idealogy better than other western examples. It wasn't so much support, as far as I believe/have read, but a symptom of the middle east's struggle to find a find a balance between secular and religious influences in government.

[Guest tv tanned]

I can understand pop-not-my-face's point.

In 2002 my debating partner and I turned down the chance to go to the European Championships in Haifa because of the security situation, and because, frankly, we're both very sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, and would probably have ended up getting ourselves arrested or something.

Had we gone we'd have been one of the favourites.

C'est la vie...

[Knight of Swords]

Again' date=' that's an issue that's far more complicated than "Arabs supported the Nazis during the war". The Arab states were struggling (and still are to an extent), to find their feet in the modern age, and the ideologies of those in charge in the middle east fit better with the Nazis idealogy better than other western examples. It wasn't so much support, as far as I believe/have read, but a symptom of the middle east's struggle to find a find a balance between secular and religious influences in government.[/quote']

It was because we kept telling them we'd give them independence and didn't, so they hoped if the Nazis won the war, they could strike a deal with them. I actually meant that the post I quoted was too polarised, hence why I said "black and white route".