ID Cards?

[Snakebite]

Could you also ask how 20 billion became 200 each. Not that i'm bothered because real criminals will find a way round it really quickly' date=' just wondering who does the arithmetic?

Last time I checked there was about 55 million people in Britain. Who has a calculator?!!?![/quote']

Okay if you want to be exact Its 363.63 each per person in tax stolen each year based on 55 million people.

The 200 each came from post 46 from Frosty Jack

[lepeep]

seems that the plot has shifted from "fighting terrorism" to making sure baddies can't STEAL STUFF.

(don't you love the british psyche, you get more time in jail for stealing some rich twats diamonds / gold / money than you would for noncing a kid or killing someone with a car)...

seen the latest news...how would an ID card stop these dudes ?

(from the BBC) :

British born bombers: Your reaction

What is your reaction to the news that the attacks in London were carried out by British born bombers?

[Snakebite]

seems that the plot has shifted from "fighting terrorism" to making sure baddies can't STEAL STUFF.

(don't you love the british psyche' date=' you get more time in jail for stealing some rich twats diamonds / gold / money than you would for noncing a kid or killing someone with a car)...

seen the latest news...how would an ID card stop these dudes ?

(from the BBC) :

British born bombers: Your reaction

What is your reaction to the news that the attacks in London were carried out by British born bombers?[/quote']

Well as far as I can tell they have arrested some people in connection with the london Bombings and recovered some addtional evidence in Leeds & at a car in a carpark in Luton

[gamestationMonkey]

I've not read the other posts in this thread so I might be going over old topics here, but never the less here goes.

I'm firmly in the belief that ID cards would be a good thing, not just ID cards but biometric ID cards. My belief works on several levels.

First of all, simply as a security plan. However, the only way to make them work is to make them mandatory. Use taxes to subsidise the cost, and pass a law stating that not being in possession of an ID card is an arrestable offence. Not punishable by prison time, but an offence that means a police officer can take you to a police station and detain you until your identity can be verified. At this point, you could use them to verify identities at any number of points. For example, using the recent London explosions as a basis, if your tube ticket were tied to your ID card, you'd need to have both to board the train. If you don't have an ID card, you can't use the tube.

Second, and this is where the biometric data comes in, as a means of warning emergency services of any allergies you may suffer from. For example, if you're in a car accident - late at night, no one else in your car to tell the services you suffer from an allergy to penicillin, let's say - then the emergency services would be able to scan your ID card and immediately know your name, address, next of kin and any allergies or diseases that you may suffer from. This can then direct them to any medication they can or can't use or indeed any that is needed for any one of the multitude of diseases that humanity suffers from.

Of course, I'll be labelled somehow by those opposing ID cards as an "infringement of their privacy". Well, I can see little reason not to use ID cards apart from evading criminal activity. I see far more benefits to a biometric ID card system than I see disadvantages.

[lepeep]

Well as far as I can tell they have arrested some people in connection with the london Bombings and recovered some addtional evidence in Leeds & at a car in a carpark in Luton

all without using a single ID card

"they have been caught quicker"

but they would still have blown shit up.

[Guest tv tanned]

I've not read the other posts in this thread so I might be going over old topics here' date=' but never the less here goes.

I'm firmly in the belief that ID cards would be a good thing, not just ID cards but biometric ID cards. My belief works on several levels.

First of all, simply as a security plan. However, the only way to make them work is to make them mandatory. Use taxes to subsidise the cost, and pass a law stating that not being in possession of an ID card is an arrestable offence. Not punishable by prison time, but an offence that means a police officer can take you to a police station and detain you until your identity can be verified. At this point, you could use them to verify identities at any number of points. For example, using the recent London explosions as a basis, if your tube ticket were tied to your ID card, you'd need to have both to board the train. If you don't have an ID card, you can't use the tube.

Second, and this is where the biometric data comes in, as a means of warning emergency services of any allergies you may suffer from. For example, if you're in a car accident - late at night, no one else in your car to tell the services you suffer from an allergy to penicillin, let's say - then the emergency services would be able to scan your ID card and immediately know your name, address, next of kin and any allergies or diseases that you may suffer from. This can then direct them to any medication they can or can't use or indeed any that is needed for any one of the multitude of diseases that humanity suffers from.

Of course, I'll be labelled somehow by those opposing ID cards as an "infringement of their privacy". Well, I can see little reason not to use ID cards apart from evading criminal activity. I see far more benefits to a biometric ID card system than I see disadvantages.[/quote']

If the person close to death in the car crash doesn't have their ID card, do they get arrested first?

[lepeep]

I've not read the other posts in this thread so I might be going over old topics here' date=' but never the less here goes.

I'm firmly in the belief that ID cards would be a good thing, not just ID cards but biometric ID cards. My belief works on several levels.

First of all, simply as a security plan. However, the only way to make them work is to make them mandatory. Use taxes to subsidise the cost, and pass a law stating that not being in possession of an ID card is an arrestable offence. Not punishable by prison time, but an offence that means a police officer can take you to a police station and detain you until your identity can be verified. At this point, you could use them to verify identities at any number of points. For example, using the recent London explosions as a basis, if your tube ticket were tied to your ID card, you'd need to have both to board the train. If you don't have an ID card, you can't use the tube.

Second, and this is where the biometric data comes in, as a means of warning emergency services of any allergies you may suffer from. For example, if you're in a car accident - late at night, no one else in your car to tell the services you suffer from an allergy to penicillin, let's say - then the emergency services would be able to scan your ID card and immediately know your name, address, next of kin and any allergies or diseases that you may suffer from. This can then direct them to any medication they can or can't use or indeed any that is needed for any one of the multitude of diseases that humanity suffers from.

Of course, I'll be labelled somehow by those opposing ID cards as an "infringement of their privacy". Well, I can see little reason not to use ID cards apart from evading criminal activity. I see far more benefits to a biometric ID card system than I see disadvantages.[/quote']

what would happen if you lost your ID card, or it was stolen along with your wallet...how long would you have to be in a cell for, before they let you out ?

and your last point is the "nothing to hide, nothing to lose" factor. that's been argued back and forth for ages.

all of the argments (both sides) are still detracting from the real point, how to lessen the hatred towards one country from another. buying a plastic card with your eye balls and fingerprints in it wont help one jot.

[gamestationMonkey]

@tv: Well they run the risk of getting medication they're allergic to, which is the risk at the moment.

@lepeep: In order, long enough to ensure you are who you say you are. Your point is lessening the hatred from one country to another, mine is having a system of identification which works, for many areas in British society. No more having to deliberate whether someone you're serving is indeed under or over age. Look at their ID card. People with illnesses and diseases won't have to wait for a doctor to figure out what's wrong with them if they collapse and fall unconcious. Scan their ID card. There are far more uses for this system than just "homeland security" to coin the Americans.

[HummerOfIntenseEvil]

I've not read the other posts in this thread so I might be going over old topics here' date=' but never the less here goes.

I'm firmly in the belief that ID cards would be a good thing, not just ID cards but biometric ID cards. My belief works on several levels.

First of all, simply as a security plan. However, the only way to make them work is to make them mandatory. Use taxes to subsidise the cost, and pass a law stating that not being in possession of an ID card is an arrestable offence. Not punishable by prison time, but an offence that means a police officer can take you to a police station and detain you until your identity can be verified. At this point, you could use them to verify identities at any number of points. For example, using the recent London explosions as a basis, if your tube ticket were tied to your ID card, you'd need to have both to board the train. If you don't have an ID card, you can't use the tube.

Second, and this is where the biometric data comes in, as a means of warning emergency services of any allergies you may suffer from. For example, if you're in a car accident - late at night, no one else in your car to tell the services you suffer from an allergy to penicillin, let's say - then the emergency services would be able to scan your ID card and immediately know your name, address, next of kin and any allergies or diseases that you may suffer from. This can then direct them to any medication they can or can't use or indeed any that is needed for any one of the multitude of diseases that humanity suffers from.

Of course, I'll be labelled somehow by those opposing ID cards as an "infringement of their privacy". Well, I can see little reason not to use ID cards apart from evading criminal activity. I see far more benefits to a biometric ID card system than I see disadvantages.[/quote']

Diabetics have a chain (I think... I know a mate of mine does) that says they have diabetes. I'm not sure, but I think this applies for other illnesses/diseases too (presumably people with AIDS especially would, and I'm almost positive haemophiliacs do). Now, unless you're well into your "bling", this will be considerably cheaper than the ID cards will be. There's actually a chance I'll get diabetes, and if I did then (as a computer programmer) I know if given the choice between a chain saying "I have diabetes please don't put lime cordial in my drip" or an ID card (big computer systems ALWAYS fuck up) to tell people I had it, I would go for the chain every time.

"This man's collapsed, is there a doctor in the house?"

"Yes, but I don't have an ID card scanner with me, so I don't know if he's allergic to anything. And I wouldn't want to get sued for trying to save his life if I accidently give him something he shouldn't get."

For me, the main problem with ID cards (and why they will ALWAYS be extremely contraversial) is that when Labour were first banging on about them, they tried playing the "fighting terrorism" card. But once it became apparent that no one would fall for that, they changed their argument. This means either they wouldn't be that good at "fighting terrorism", in which case it's a straight forward case of dropping the idea, OR they didn't want them for "fighting terrorism" in the first place, in which case you have to wonder what the REAL reason is, and why they couldn't just come out with it in the first place.

Basically Labour want ID cards. They just haven't fully decided why yet. Or at least they haven't decided what to tell us yet.

As for "invasion of privacy" and "having nothing to hide", I'm no criminal - so why should anyone have my finger prints?

[Snakebite]

all without using a single ID card

"they have been caught quicker"

but they would still have blown shit up.

They were probably found on MI5's watch list when they cross checked forensic evidence from the blast sites against it. If they were on it MI5 would hold enough information including possibly fingerprints & DNA to enable them to identify them and locate them. Which is similar to what ID cards will do but for the entire population instead of just certain suspected individuals.

[Guest tv tanned]

They were probably found on MI5's watch list when they cross checked forensic evidence from the blast sites against it. If they were on it MI5 would hold enough information including possibly fingerprints & DNA to enable them to identify them and locate them. Which is similar to what ID cards will do but for the entire population instead of just certain suspected individuals.

I detect the faintest whiff of bullshit.

If you had watched Newsnight yesterday then you would know that these individuals were not on a watch list, and were not ever suspected of terrorist activity.

They could as easily have been that bloke you walked past on the street this morning.

So before introducing another rambling justification for ID cards, how about getting some facts straight.

[Snakebite]

I detect the faintest whiff of bullshit.

If you had watched Newsnight yesterday then you would know that these individuals were not on a watch list' date=' and were not ever suspected of terrorist activity.

They could as easily have been that bloke you walked past on the street this morning.

So before introducing another rambling justification for ID cards, how about getting some facts straight.[/quote']

Okay my comments were made before the press anouncement. However one of them did have their name on a list of potential suspects that supposedly had links with al qaeda although that list contained at least another thousand people.

The watch list still exists though and information about those on the list will be held.

[Guest tv tanned]

Okay my comments were made before the press anouncement.

No they weren't. You posted at 23.20' date=' Newsnight showed the police statement at 22.30

However one of them did have their name on a list of potential suspects that supposedly had links with al qaeda although that list contained at least another thousand people.

The watch list still exists though and information about those on the list will be held.

It really doesn't matter if the info on this list will be 'held' it would have done no good in preventing the crime from taking place.

[Snakebite]

No they weren't. You posted at 23.20' date=' Newsnight showed the police statement at 22.30

It really doesn't matter if the info on this list will be 'held' it would have done no good in preventing the crime from taking place.[/quote']

Well im sorry I wasnt watching TV that night. I didnt see it till the following day.

The only way you can ever 100% stop terrorism is if the government revokes every civil liberty you currently have, which in effect would turn the country into a police state. I seriously do not see this happening so the government can only do as much as they can to help prevent it using every scrap of information at their disposal whilst minimising the reduction of our civil liberities, which means that sometimes the terrorists will win.

Did you know that since 9/11 the security services have already stopped several terrorist attacks from happening in the UK using this very information that you think is no use. The attacks in london were just the latest attempt, which unfortunately slipped through.

[Guest tv tanned]

precisely because the terrorists have begun recruiting people with no criminal records or links to terrorism to carry out atrocities, as we saw in London.

I am not insinuating that this list is useless, but you seem all too willing to believe everything the government tells you. A bit like Winston Smith's nieghbour, whose name escapes me, and we all know what happened to him...

[Snakebite]

precisely because the terrorists have begun recruiting people with no criminal records or links to terrorism to carry out atrocities' date=' as we saw in London.

I am not insinuating that this list is useless, but you seem all too willing to believe everything the government tells you. A bit like Winston Smith's nieghbour, whose name escapes me, and we all know what happened to him...[/quote']

I not saying that im for everything the governemnt is proposing but the issue on ID cards has more Pro's than con's, especially with regards to fraud & identity theft,

So im for it.

[soundian]

I'm getting tired saying this, if they can clone your mobile, your credit card, your identity, all you do with ID cards is make it harder, not impossible!

People who check these cards will suspect less because they are being touted as "secure security". Bollocks.

As soon as you turn something into a pile of numbers, someone can crack the code, as soon as one person can, the real criminal element will buy the info or employ their own staff of IT renegades to do it. If you know it can be done it's easier to do it.

ID cards might stop petty crime to a point, but any serious criminal/terrorist will have contacts to get "legit" ID's. How's it going to stop suicide bombers like London, never been in trouble, kaboom. Get real!

Waste of money!!!

[Snakebite]

I'm getting tired saying this' date=' if they can clone your mobile, your credit card, your identity, all you do with ID cards is make it harder, not impossible!

People who check these cards will suspect less because they are being touted as "secure security". Bollocks.

As soon as you turn something into a pile of numbers, someone can crack the code, as soon as one person can, the real criminal element will buy the info or employ their own staff of IT renegades to do it. If you know it can be done it's easier to do it.

ID cards might stop petty crime to a point, but any serious criminal/terrorist will have contacts to get "legit" ID's. How's it going to stop suicide bombers like London, never been in trouble, kaboom. Get real!

Waste of money!!![/quote']

You have to bear in mind that when entering the country, or using government departments or applying for credit whereby your identity must be confirmed. That both you and the ID card must be used together, unless both the ID card & your biometric information given at that particular time matches the record on the National Identity Register you will be unable in those circumstances to assume someone elses identity since it is almost impossible to forge a physical person's biometrics i.e. your Iris for example. The same will apply if you are European, American, Canadian etc since even if ID cards are not introduced in the UK the EEC is now implementing the legal requirement of Biometric passports throughout the whole of Europe inline with the US.

Once in force if you will not be able to come into the country without biometric ID. Your biometric information will be taken and checked at the point of applying for a Visa at a British embassy before you entering the country. So anyone wishing to enter the UK will have been more thoroughly vetted before they are let in. Even Asyum seekers will have their biometric information taken and will be detained until their identity can be confirmed and checked.

[Penny]

watch BBC1.. 'the last word', highly informative. good shit.

[soundian]

since it is almost impossible to forge a physical person's biometrics

That's my point fuckwit' date=' [b']almost impossible, not impossible. Do you really have such disregard for the modern organised criminal that you can't see them recruiting any disillusioned IT grads, hackers/crackers etc to blow an ID card system out of the water.

EDIT: And then you've got the banks, credit card companies et al saying that someone couldn't have stolen your identity because biometric data doesn't lie. Sheesh.

[The Milner]

You have to bear in mind that when entering the country' date=' or using government departments or applying for credit whereby your identity must be confirmed. That both you and the ID card must be used together, unless both the ID card & your biometric information given at that particular time matches the record on the National Identity Register you will be unable in those circumstances to assume someone elses identity since it is almost [b']impossible to forge a physical person's biometrics i.e. your Iris for example. The same will apply if you are European, American, Canadian etc since even if ID cards are not introduced in the UK the EEC is now implementing the legal requirement of Biometric passports throughout the whole of Europe inline with the US.

Once in force if you will not be able to come into the country without biometric ID. Your biometric information will be taken and checked at the point of applying for a Visa at a British embassy before you entering the country. So anyone wishing to enter the UK will have been more thoroughly vetted before they are let in. Even Asyum seekers will have their biometric information taken and will be detained until their identity can be confirmed and checked.

so where is the money going to come from for all these fancy retinal scanners and finger print scanners? these things dont come cheap and for this to be really "secure" surely everyone will need to be scanned when they come into the country.

[Snakebite]

That's my point fuckwit' date=' [b']almost impossible, not impossible. Do you really have such disregard for the modern organised criminal that you can't see them recruiting any disillusioned IT grads, hackers/crackers etc to blow an ID card system out of the water.

EDIT: And then you've got the banks, credit card companies et al saying that someone couldn't have stolen your identity because biometric data doesn't lie. Sheesh.

I dont think IT grads are going to surgically alter your iris since it is the physical key of that person trying to get into the country which cannot be copied.

The biometric information given at that particular moment by the person has to match both the Information on their ID card and the National Identity Register, the latter of which will not be accessable to unauthorised persons.

[soundian]

so where is the money going to come from for all these fancy retinal scanners and finger print scanners? these things dont come cheap and for this to be really "secure" surely everyone will need to be scanned when they come into the country.

Never mind the central database (CSA anyone) to integrate it all. Which no-one will be able to hack in to.

[Snakebite]

so where is the money going to come from for all these fancy retinal scanners and finger print scanners? these things dont come cheap and for this to be really "secure" surely everyone will need to be scanned when they come into the country.

Thats what the 15-20 Billion budget is for.

[soundian]

Thats what the 15-20 Billion budget is for.

Which you claim is only for set-up costs, what's the annual cost of paying for staff, staff training,replacing equipment etc.

Oh yeah, if 15-20 billion is what they think crime costs a year, does that include the cost of everything that doesn't require an ID card to commit, like drunk driving (millions to clean up I believe), muggings, housebreakings, rapes.