bluestraveler Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 Don't think I misunderstood you - you seem to be saying it makes no difference if someone is trained to teach or not. I say it does.I am fucking brilliant at long division. Doesn't mean I can go teach in a primary school.You're speaking about their ability. I'm not questioning that. I'm questioning their ability to pass on that ability to someone else. They could be the best hairdresser in the world, doesn't mean they could make me the best hairdresser in the world.I've known some fantastically talented musicians, but when I ask them to show me how to play something, they're clueless.Playing ability does not mean teaching ability.Frosty Jack, you couldn't go and teach in a primary school because there is a legal requirement to have a teaching qualification. Nothing to do with ability or lack of. I agree wholeheartedly with you though. I don't think being a fantastic musician means that someone is going to be a fantastic teacher - playing ability certainly doesn't mean teaching ability. But I know of music teachers who are qualified and whose entire approach to teaching sets the majority of people up to fail. Yes, they're qualified, and that's the only positive thing you can say about them. On the other hand I have met lots of genuine, enthusiastic, talented tutors who don't have a formal qualification, even some who (gasp) can't read music! My point is simply a piece of paper isn't the first thing I would look for in a tutor -I'm not against qualifications per se, they're just not the defining criteria for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KimyReizeger Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 he is charging people for specific lessons on 'effortless mastery', which I can't see any other credentials for other than reading a book...Perhaps he's well-read in the subject and has practical experience of the techniques involved:I am offering tuition from someone who has worked through the process and now regularly experiences 'Effortless Mastery' in action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KimyReizeger Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 I am fucking brilliant at long division. Doesn't mean I can go teach in a primary school..No, but oddly enough you could go and teach someone about long-division. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Jack Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 No, but oddly enough you could go and teach someone about long-division.No I couldn't. That's my point. I can do the sums myself, not sure I could successfully explain to you how to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KimyReizeger Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 No I couldn't. That's my point. I can do the sums myself, not sure I could successfully explain to you how to do it.Well, as a guitar teacher who has never been near a qualification, I obviously can't agree. Anyone who has knowledge can feasibly pass it down. The notion of qualifications as essential, is absurd. Lecturers don't need qualifications to teach in universities, rather, solid knowledge of their content. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 Well, as a guitar teacher who has never been near a qualification, I obviously can't agree. Anyone who has knowledge can feasibly pass it down. The notion of qualifications as essential, is absurd. Lecturers don't need qualifications to teach in universities, rather, solid knowledge of their content.Thats not what he's saying. He isn't saying you need a qualification, just that its slightly more reassuring if you do, and that being able to play the instrument doesnt mean you can teach necessarily.I can write short stories quite well, does that mean I can teach other people? I think I would struggle.Your inability to read is quite frustrating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KimyReizeger Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 He isn't saying you need a qualification, just that its slightly more reassuring if you doLet the man speak for himself:someone who I think can teach me, would be more likely to be someone who has earned a qualification proving that they can teach. So are you guys saying BitchesBrew should get a qualification in music psychology before teaching techniques merely discovered in books?I can write short stories quite well, does that mean I can teach other people? I think I would struggle.Like I said, I've been teaching guitar without qualifications so I can't possibly agree with this sentiment. Besides, do you think that you - a self proclaimed 'bad teacher' - could, with a qualification, go on to teach people about short stories? Of course not. There's no point in arguing about BitchesBrew's teaching ability because we don't know anything of it, and it isn't disproved through lack of formal qualification. Rather, stick to discussion of his content, which I believe looks interesting, unusual and fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluestraveler Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 Thats not what he's saying. He isn't saying you need a qualification, just that its slightly more reassuring if you do, and that being able to play the instrument doesnt mean you can teach necessarily.I can write short stories quite well, does that mean I can teach other people? I think I would struggle.Your inability to read is quite frustrating.Actually, Frosty Jack's argument has changed over a few threads. He began by seeming to suggest that a good teacher should have a professional qualification, then changed to saying that being a good musician does not mean you will be a good tutor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KimyReizeger Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 You can only teach after being taught how to teach by someone else, who in turn had to be taught how to teach by someone else who was also taught how to teach by someone else... Does this long line of 'teaching wisdom' stretch back to Adam or something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 Let the man speak for himself:someone who I think can teach me, would be more likely to be someone who has earned a qualification proving that they can teach. So are you guys saying BitchesBrew should get a qualification in music psychology before teaching techniques merely discovered in books?Like I said, I've been teaching guitar without qualifications so I can't possibly agree with this sentiment.No. He, and I, are saying that having the ability to play yourself doesnt necessarily make you able to teach. Having a degree means that in all likelihood, you've been taught how to teach, which means you probably know how to do it. For some people, teaching comes naturally, and others it doesn't. A qualification is some sort of quantifiable evidence that you can teach and not just play. Happy students is another way you'd find out.Im not saying a qualification necessary to teach at all. Just that it'd might provide reassurance. Do you understand that? I'm not saying people who havent got some certificate cant teach or having a qualification makes you a better teacher. It just acts as some sort of proof. Get what I mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KimyReizeger Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 Im not saying a qualification necessary to teach at all. Just that it'd might provide reassurance. Do you understand that? I'm not saying people who havent got some certificate cant teach or having a qualification makes you a better teacher. It just acts as some sort of proof. Get what I mean?Yes, I understand the point. I don't understand how it relates to BitchesBrew and effortless mastery though.It's right you bring up happy students. They're a much better indicator of a good teacher than qualifications. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 Yes, I understand the point. I don't understand how it relates to BitchesBrew and effortless mastery though.It's right you bring up happy students. They're a much better indicator of a good teacher than qualifications.I agree. As an aside, I need a good guitar teacher that operates from town and does lessons as late as 9 at night. Any reccomendations, anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Jack Posted March 29, 2010 Report Share Posted March 29, 2010 Actually, Frosty Jack's argument has changed over a few threads. He began by seeming to suggest that a good teacher should have a professional qualification, then changed to saying that being a good musician does not mean you will be a good tutor.It hasn't changed at all. I'm suggesting that if someone has a teaching qualification, they are probably a good teacher (on the basis that they have an in-depth knowledge of the subject, have studied the principles of teaching, the psychology of learning and techniques for the imparting of knowledge so as to be retained) . I'm also suggesting that being a good musician does not necessarily mean you will be a good tutor. Even to my pinot-addled brain that doesn't seem in any way contradictory.As I said before, I've known fantastically talented musicians who dry up totally when asked to explain their art. And some others who can create one in their own image with a few well chosen words.But anyway, we appear to be getting mired in semantics somewhat. I think what I'm arguing against is the assumption readily accepted by some that if they are good at something, they can automatically teach it. This is not directly aimed at the OP or anyone else, but is perhaps worth mentioning in the context of this thread. I actually have a feeling that the OP is a good teacher, whatever you think of the subject matter, but the fact is he has said nothing yet to dispel the possibility that he has simply read a book and therefore assumes he can teach its contents, for a not inconsiderable fee. I'm just passing the time while I wait for him to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KimyReizeger Posted March 29, 2010 Report Share Posted March 29, 2010 It hasn't changed at all. I'm suggesting that if someone has a teaching qualification, they are probably a good teacher (on the basis that they have an in-depth knowledge of the subject, have studied the principles of teaching, the psychology of learning and techniques for the imparting of knowledge so as to be retained) . I'm also suggesting that being a good musician does not necessarily mean you will be a good tutor. Even to my pinot-addled brain that doesn't seem in any way contradictory.As I said before, I've known fantastically talented musicians who dry up totally when asked to explain their art. And some others who can create one in their own image with a few well chosen words.But anyway, we appear to be getting mired in semantics somewhat. I think what I'm arguing against is the assumption readily accepted by some that if they are good at something, they can automatically teach it. This is not directly aimed at the OP or anyone else, but is perhaps worth mentioning in the context of this thread. I actually have a feeling that the OP is a good teacher, whatever you think of the subject matter, but the fact is he has said nothing yet to dispel the possibility that he has simply read a book and therefore assumes he can teach its contents, for a not inconsiderable fee. I'm just passing the time while I wait for him to do so.The whole business about teachers and ability is one big aside to the actual topic. Obviously BB doesn't have a qualification to teach effortless mastery. Rather, he knows the subject well and has experience using the techniques. These are the same grounds upon which university lecturers and countless guitar tutors base their teaching.I've been through the book and using the techniques has completely changed my playing. I am offering tuition from someone who has worked through the process and now regularly experiences 'Effortless Mastery' in action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest droid Posted March 29, 2010 Report Share Posted March 29, 2010 You can only teach after being taught how to teach by someone else, who in turn had to be taught how to teach by someone else who was also taught how to teach by someone else... Got to totally disagree with this statement......! Like you say unqualified University lecturers have a sound knowledge of their subject,and teaching guitar can be done by someone who is an experienced guitarist.But not everyone can teach,that takes a particular mind set and attitude.All IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KimyReizeger Posted March 29, 2010 Report Share Posted March 29, 2010 Got to totally disagree with this statement......No, we're in agreement To suggest qualifications are essential is like saying You can only teach after being taught how to teach by someone else, who in turn had to be taught how to teach yada yadaAttitude and personality equally important as ability and knowledge in teaching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraemeC Posted April 1, 2010 Report Share Posted April 1, 2010 I like being incompetent......Just as well eh?....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TelecasterSam Posted April 2, 2010 Report Share Posted April 2, 2010 Well, I never felt the need to get a piping qualification... ie Pipe Majors CertificateI also don't consider myself to be a TOP-class player.....but, I'm a good player, and a very good teacher of the Great Highland Bagpipe !!!! my guitar playing, on the other hand..... I suppose the jury's still out on that one...as I'm always learning...... but its coming on !!I think that the ability to teach someone else, well !..... has got buggar all to do with having amazing skill on a chosen instrument etc, and a piece of paper that says you're a top notch player means fuck all really, if you can't pass on what you've learnt, to someone else.(hope that makes sense?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Cynic Posted April 2, 2010 Report Share Posted April 2, 2010 Just as well eh?.......True...I am at one with my lack of ability, playing-wise. My looping pedal is my temple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraemeC Posted April 2, 2010 Report Share Posted April 2, 2010 True...I am at one with my lack of ability, playing-wise. My looping pedal is my temple.I was really kidding..... If we were both standing on the musical talent ladder i'd need binoculars to see the soles of your god like feet...!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Cynic Posted April 3, 2010 Report Share Posted April 3, 2010 Nah....I'd be the callouses on your feet, or the little scuff marks you left on the first rung!I still can't do a barre chord properly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraemeC Posted April 3, 2010 Report Share Posted April 3, 2010 Nah....I'd be the callouses on your feet, or the little scuff marks you left on the first rung!I still can't do a barre chord properly Bloody hell... you are really shite...!!...o_O Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Cynic Posted April 3, 2010 Report Share Posted April 3, 2010 I have mastered being shite effortlessly........if the boy in Kung Fu was a grasshopper I am a dungbeetle. I can pass on my learning, if you so wish????Lesson One....Stanley Clarke. Just say no....less is more after all That will be 10/6d, please.Or I will accept copies of the Green Final from 1966-1988 as a trade-in. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon Posted April 3, 2010 Report Share Posted April 3, 2010 I still can't do a barre chord properly Ah, but you can spell it properly, which is just as important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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