Live recording

[Dazza1040]

Do you guys think there is a market for live recording during a gig. I ask this as some people are talking about live recordings from the desk to mini disc. Well the songs i have heard are not that great as these are only mixed for front of house. My point is i have been doing some live recording of my band on my pc. After which i mix and master later. The results are pretty good.

Here is some examples:

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/dazza1040/Mp3/9%20my%20sharona.mp3

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/dazza1040/Mp3/2%20mustang%20sally.mp3

I record each instrument to its own track so more editing can be done.

Its like a portable studio that can go and record the band rather than band going to the studio.

Email me for more info.

[soundian]

Have you thought about how you're going to get the mic signals to both the FOH desk and the recorder.

The options are;

1) Put up a completely different set of mics from the live set up. This is obviously not feasible for things like vocals so some splitters will be required.

2) Split the signal at the stage box. You'd need a seperate stage box with with two feeds, one to the FOH and one to your recorder.

3) Take the signal from the FOH desk. Although this appears the easiest some desks don't have direct outs, some have direct outs that are post fade and EQ and to top it all off, some are jack and some are XLR. Space is often very limited at FOH as well, so it may be tricky getting your equipment close to the desk.

Personally I wouldn't even consider option one, it's the cheapest option if you already have all the mics, stands and leads but the extra work all round is by far the highest. It's also difficult to get one set of mics round a drum kit sometimes, never mind two.

Between the others, option 2 involves the least work per gig and it will work anywhere. Option 3 has several flaws but it is feasible in most venues.

[Dazza1040]

Line out

If i can get a desk with line out pre or post fade then thats all i need. Then i can record 18 tracks.

This is a recording of my band using my pc. The pc has 3 soundcards. The built in one, creative and line port. This gave me 5 mono line ins. I also had a mini disc recording 2 mono lines. The keyboard is midi using the grand 2 vst. So altogether I had 7 tracks and the keyboard midi. The mini disc recording was added to the pc recording later. To get all the cards to work together i use asio4all drivers. The band desk has 8 line outs. These can be pre or post. But since im not trying to get the sound right straight away then as long as the signal is right in the recording level it should be ok for mix and master at a later stage.

Here is the results i got

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/dazza1040/Mp3/7%20you%20really%20got%20me.mp3

Lets say my desk has 18 ins and 18 out then the band could go through my desk and the line outs to the main desk.

By the way ian its darren.

[soundian]

If i can get a desk with line out pre or post fade then thats all i need. Then i can record 18 tracks.

Lets say my desk has 18 ins and 18 out then the band could go through my desk and the line outs to the main desk.

By the way ian its darren.

Desks with post fade and EQ outs will record any level and EQ changes that the FOH engineer makes, so it might not be as straightforward to mix as you think, and those levels can change quite a bit from soundcheck.

Apart from the practicalities of the multicore not being long enough to go anywhere except the FOH desk, no engineer would (or should) let your desk into their signal chain.

Here's what you're up against:

Drummonds: A+H GL 2200. Line level jack outs but post fade and EQ. This could seriously ruin a lot of tracks. Say the guitar player is too loud on stage, the fader comes down on the FOH desk, bye bye guitar track.

Tunnels: No direct outs on the desk.

Kef: You should be OK there, line level jack outs if I remember, and if they're not pre fade and EQ I'll be very surprised.

Moshulu: Depends on the desk used.

Lemon tree: I've never looked at the back of their desk but it's a Midas heritage, so could be XLR out, but yet again I will be surprised if it's not pre fade and EQ, possibly even pre gain.

Then you have to position your equipment close enough to the FOH desk to get the signals, but far enough away so it doesn't hamper the FOH engineer.

And you'll need the willing assistance of the FOH engineer, you've just landed a whole heap of extra work on them, and at most gigs there isn't the time to soundcheck everyone, never mind faffing about setting up a multi-track recording for one of the acts.

[Flash@TMB]

Moorings: 16 digital direct outs all pre-everthing. PLUS entirely separate 8 channel Audient digital preamp with a futher 8 digital outs also pre-everything, 2 channels are dedicated to C1000 stereo pair room mics to capture crowd noide, the rest can be hooked up to secondary guitar feeds etc via DI.

So maximum 21 useable stage outputs (after you subtract engineers mic) plus 2 crowd feeds. Also an aux channel dedicted to re-amping where required. This would be ideal for your purposes but...

...only one problem

...it's permanently hooked up to Sydec Soundscape 24 track digital recorder A slightly smaller incarnation of this:

http://www.sydec.be/Products/Details/ID/ed3dbe6b-fe56-462a-a08c-7ab009424f74/Soundscape+32/

***

But to answer your original question - yes there is a market for this! We struggle to get through all the mixes that are commissioned. But for some reason most of the work comes from touring bands. I have no idea why this is. Most local bands are either unable or unwilling to pay for such a service.

Although the initial recording process is shorter (being the length of the gig), the results (obviously) require a little more work, and that's the expensive part. For starters you're dealing mainly with mic feeds rather than DI, and these will pick up bleed from other sources. Secondly the drums especially require a lot of work... of course you could get around this by using the drum feeds as triggers for a sampler... but IMO that's cheating!!! And bands playing live inevitabley make mistakes, some of which are correctable, but the process can be painstaking. Reamping can help a lot with any problematic guitar or bass sounds, but again it's a very slow process.

There is a substantial market to provide raw output at low cost in Cuebase format so that the bands can mix it themselves. This is something we are unable to do because the conversion (from Soundscape format), and the dumping takes forever. A 16 track recording of a 30 minute performance, done in in 24 bit 88KHz digital, will consume up to 20 CDs! And do you really want to spend your time doing nothing more complex than burning umpteen CDs/DVDs every week? But if you're purely looking to earn some cash then you can probably charge around £30 for doing this. Just bear in mid that if their results get slagged off on these forums then you'll most likely get the blame (somehow) LOL!

[Dazza1040]

There would be no extra work for the sound guy. I do my level checks at the same time as the sound guy. As i said the the mix of the levels dont have to be spot on as long as i get a good recording signal for each signal. 80 to 90% of the mix is done after the recording. If the sound guy turns down guitar foh then i can turn them back up later. I can fix errors overdub add fx, comp, gates, maximizers, eq just about anything you like. This would cost a bit more.

Whats the going rate for mastering in Aberdeen?

Flash would £30 be for a quick recording without any final mix and master?

Flash where can i hear some demos of your recordings?

[Flash@TMB]

Flash would 30 be for a quick recording without any final mix and master?

Yeah that seem to be what most of the local bands want' date=' just raw output in Cubase format so that they can mess around with it themselves. Quite often it gets used for rehersals etc.

Flash where can i hear some demos of your recordings?

There was a compilation CD on our old jukebox, but we haven't input the track listing into the new jukebox yet, but will do soon. The is however a copy of Jo McCafferty Live @ The Moorings in the new jukebox, and this is also on sale in One Up and behind the bar.

[soundian]

There would be no extra work for the sound guy. I do my level checks at the same time as the sound guy. As i said the the mix of the levels dont have to be spot on as long as i get a good recording signal for each signal. 80 to 90% of the mix is done after the recording. If the sound guy turns down guitar foh then i can turn them back up later. I can fix errors overdub add fx' date=' comp, gates, maximizers, eq just about anything you like. This would cost a bit more.

Whats the going rate for mastering in Aberdeen?

Flash would 30 be for a quick recording without any final mix and master?

Flash where can i hear some demos of your recordings?[/quote']

Plugging in 18 different cables to the back of the FOH desk is extra work. Having 18 extra bits of spaghetti when you're trying to repatch the multi and inserts is extra work, putting everything back the way it was is extra work. Most house rigs are very messy at the back of the desk.

If the engineer turns the guitar right down or mutes it you can't just raise the level.

Speaking of inserts, if the direct out is post EQ and post fade it would also be post insert. You can't undo too much compression (except by overdubbing, which you're planning to charge more for?).

Anyway, as I said, it is feasible in most venues, but I personally wouldn't attempt it unless the band was headlining, it was a small bill, and the engineer had been buttered up enough to slip into work half an hour early and was willing to make compromises on their job to get my job done.

[Flash@TMB]

Plugging in 18 different cables to the back of the FOH desk is extra work. Having 18 extra bits of spaghetti when you're trying to repatch the multi and inserts is extra work' date=' putting everything back the way it was is extra work. Most house rigs are very messy at the back of the desk.

If the engineer turns the guitar right down or mutes it you can't just raise the level.

Speaking of inserts, if the direct out is post EQ and post fade it would also be post insert. You can't undo too much compression (except by overdubbing, which you're planning to charge more for?).

Anyway, as I said, it is feasible in most venues, but I personally wouldn't attempt it unless the band was headlining, it was a small bill, and the engineer had been buttered up enough to slip into work half an hour early and was willing to make compromises on their job to get my job done.[/quote']

Yeah I'm totally with you on this one!

It might be slight easier if the venue has a digital desk (rare even in the 21st century) which you can just plug a couple of tdiff connectors into... but even then the engineer would have to digital patch the direct outputs to the right place, unless by sheer fluke they were already set up exactly right. In our case this would still be a huge scutter because our rack cabinet is bolted into a corner locattion and there is a whole world of cables to sift through to find the right connections, and is quite literally a can of worms that we'd be extremely reluctant to open LOL!

That would appear to me to be the biggest stumbling block. No doubt in a couple of years there'll be high bandwidth wireless uplinks etc which will get round all these problems.

[Dazza1040]

why would you have to turn the guitar down or off? And if there was to much compression then are you doing your job right? Looks like i wont be recording at moorings or drummonds then.

Rather than just say that cant be done or whatever. Then does that mean your stuck in your ways. Is it not better to be more versitile and to experiment?

Ok what about if i mic up guitars. use a spliiter for bass. Splitter for keyboards or mic. Then line out from foh for drums and vocals.

If you had to mute the lead vocals or drums during a gig then there would be something very wrong.

I am only trying to offer a service that i feel a lot of people would want. But it looks like the engineers are putting up a brickwall for this to happen and dont want to know.

[spellchecker]

why would you have to turn the guitar down or off? And if there was to much compression then are you doing your job right? Looks like i wont be recording at moorings or drummonds then.

Rather than just say that cant be done or whatever. Then does that mean your stuck in your ways. Is it not better to be more versitile and to experiment?

Ok what about if i mic up guitars. use a spliiter for bass. Splitter for keyboards or mic. Then line out from foh for drums and vocals.

If you had to mute the lead vocals or drums during a gig then there would be something very wrong.

I am only trying to offer a service that i feel a lot of people would want. But it looks like the enginers are putting up a brickwall for this to happen and dont want to know.

sound engineers will turn down or even mute guitars when the muppet onstage playing the instrument decides to turn his amp up way too loud. at this point the volume of the guitar is beyond the sound engineer's control and hence there is no point having it in the mix.

rather than stuck in their ways the bar owners/sound engineers are trying to do a job - make bands sound good to the punters that come in to see them, and by the way you are talking I know that ian has a lot more real world experience than you do.

if you're going to the trouble of having 18 tracks, go to a studio, not a live venue. what's the point in having some muppet in the background heckling over 18 mics. i've seen a few people record gigs at drummonds, usually they tend to have a stereo setup with what i would guess are omni-directional mikes, though ian would no more, as i think he knows the gadgie that keeps doing it.

i can imagine a lot of people would be interested in your service, if it was easy, and cheap or free - but i can think of few bands in aberdeen that would actually put in a performance worth recording in the first place.

[Dazza1040]

Ok i take it you have a junction box on stage. Then i could get a junction box splitter. Job done.

No more work for the engineer.

I know i dont have the experience that ian has but if i dont ask questions or try hands on then i am not going to get the experience.

[MTA]

Ok i take it you have a junction box on stage. Then i could get a junction box splitter. Job done.

No more work for the engineer.

I know i dont have the experience that ian has but if i dont ask questions or try hands on then i am not going to get the experience.

Not quite, You will need an active splitter that way there is no signal degradation, these are not cheap but are the best way to go for live recording. There are lots of ways you can record live, but at the end of the day it is down to what the band want to achieve. A stereo pair at the front would be ok to see how they played but not much use for a cd etc.

[Flash@TMB]

why would you have to turn the guitar down or off?

During a gig it is often necessary to experiment with levels. Ian's point was that if the output was post fade then the guitar signal would be up and down during the recording. This is may not obvious at the gig when you have a 4x12 cab blaring away on stage regardless' date=' but you would notice it very much in the mic feed during playback.

Sometimes during the gig you may encounter an unexpected problem. The other week we had a left handed drummer in playing last and had swapped the kit round. The next gig the kit was swapped back round but the large rack tom and floor tom mic leads got mixed up. This the rack tom was running floor tom EQ and this introduced a problem that was not apparent until a few minutes into the gig. In order to troubleshoot the problem from the desk it was necessary to momentarily mute each individual mic channel one at a time to determine where the noise was coming from. This almost unnoticable to the audience, but something that would be very evident on the recorded feeds. Once the problem was located we were able to address it with some simple EQ and pan adjustments, until in between bands when we swapped the leads back. That's just one example.

And if there was to much compression then are you doing your job right?

The correct compression in the live environment is likely to be wholly unsuitable for recording. In a live environment you sometimes have to over compress in order to overcome the volume of the backline. In the recorded environment it's possible to partially correct most of these issues with normalisation before you start applying any compression.

If you had to mute the lead vocals or drums during a gig then there would be something very wrong.

Yes it's called feedback. Although we don't suffer from it very often' date=' it is still common place in most venues. While 2 seconds of muted vocal wouldn't exactly ruin a gig it would sound pretty shit on the recording.

I am only trying to offer a service that i feel a lot of people would want. But it looks like the engineers are putting up a brickwall for this to happen and dont want to know.

I agree that a lot of people will be interested in a service of this nature, especially the recording part, and I already voiced this. But there are some practical obstacles to overcome.

In our case we simply would not permit any third party to plug anything into our system, because if anything broke or blew up (due to whatever reason) then there is almost no chance of them being able to pay for it. And given that we already have a sophisticated recording setup in-house then it's like there'd be any point to the exercise.

In other places what you are proposing may have merit, but you'll have your work cut out convincing people to co-operate.

We're not being deliberately shitty.

[Dazza1040]

Lol

[MTA]

It really isnt that simple to get a multi track recording form most venues, they just arent set-up for it, if you want to use direct outs etc, you could need converter cables like D-sub to XLR or balanced jack to whatever. If it was easy I would have my own system, but to do it right would take a lot of cash and equipment.

[Flash@TMB]

You'll go far with that attitude ROFLMMFAO!

***

Ah wait - I think I see where I went wrong. What I was supposed to say was:

"Oooh lovely. Sounds like a great idea!!! We can't wait!!! Where do we sign? You can hump my grandmother too if you like "

***

Or try re-reading my posts without your defensive head on. Mark's idea with the active splitter seems like the best option. Venues are less likely to grumble about sidechaining something off their stage box. But in most cases the engineer will still need to be involved because the mics, mic cables, and stage box are all the property of the venue. Most venues would not be happy if some random showed up unannounced, said "I've been commissioned by this band to record them and I'm here to act on that instruction", then leapt on stage and proceeded to decouple disconnect everything from the stage box. No... they might find that somewhat alarming.

Most venues would insist that the engineer does this. Few of them will be prepared to pay for the engineers time to hook up someone else's equipment which is not relevant to the gig. The engineer may not be prepared to do this for free either. Our mic cables are routed through holes in our stage, and replacing them is a real pain in the but. some places might reasonably seek reimbursment from you for any broken leads or connections. Take into account that a lead can easily cost in the region of £10 or more. This is not obstruction BTW it's just something you must be prepared to take account of. You need to have answers and solutions ready when someone puts these same points to you.

I know i dont have the experience that ian has but if i dont ask questions or try hands on then i am not going to get the experience.

That's exactly why people have taken the time to respond to your post.

***

In our case' date=' assuming you were prepared to pay Mark for hooking up your aparartus, then the biggest stumbling block would be perception. We already produce our own live recordings. Our concern would be that your recordings may become confused with ours... and we have zero control over the quality of your output. Imagine the scenario where some band post on here "Fuckin Ace Live Recordings From The Moorings Bar", and they turn out to be pish. Do you see the problem? Can you empathize with where I am coming from? Of course this could just as easily work the other way round.

But this [i']may not be such an issue elsewhere. Good luck!

[Cloud]

I am only trying to offer a service that i feel a lot of people would want. But it looks like the engineers are putting up a brickwall for this to happen and dont want to know.

You've had the technical answers, now for the uninformed opinion.

From what you're proposing, I'm guessing that it wouldn't be as simple as "plugging a box in and getting started". Generally speaking, the more complicated you make things, the harder you make it for yourself and everyone else. I'm sure your idea would go down a storm if it was really simple to do - but it just doesn't seem that way to me at all.

Out of interest, is there any way that you could take a post-mix feed from the desk and do clever stuff to it to make it sound even better? Something like that would seem to have far more potential than messing about with all sorts of wires and stuff.

[MTA]

you could but there isnt much you can do, Remember the FOH Is Sound Reinforcement, so it might not be a good recording mix! studio mixes are totally different because you dont take in to account the sound on stage,

[Flash@TMB]

You've had the technical answers' date=' now for the uninformed opinion.

From what you're proposing, I'm guessing that it wouldn't be as simple as "plugging a box in and getting started". Generally speaking, the more complicated you make things, the harder you make it for yourself and everyone else. I'm sure your idea would go down a storm if it was really simple to do - but it just doesn't seem that way to me at all.

Out of interest, is there any way that you could take a post-mix feed from the desk and do clever stuff to it to make it sound even better? Something like that would seem to have far more potential than messing about with all sorts of wires and stuff.[/quote']

To be honest, provided he built up good relationships with the venues, and was able to provide raw mic feeds in a cubase compatible format, at a charge of between 1-3 per minute of live performance PLUS media costs, then YES there WOULD be a huge demand.

The best means to accomplish this, and therefore allay the fears of the venues, would be to have a live splitter permanently installed at each participating venue. Then just go around plugging in an analogue to digital convertor unit and digital recorder to the splitter box (which would be a relatively simple matter). He may perhaps also require a laptop to control the recorder.

This would be fully do-able. The only obstacle would be the initial outlay.

However I would bank on most people seeking just these raw feeds, burned onto DVD or whatever to go away and mix themselves. But definitely a market there.

[Flash@TMB]

PS... if you would like to buy suitable A2D converter units then I have 3 of them going spare. All is near new condition. They are decent quality Sydec units, and each one takes 8 feeds. so you'd probably require all 3 to deliver a maximum of 24 feeds converted to digital. I can do a good price (any idea what these are worth Mark?) and then all you'd need to purchase are the live splitter boxes, the recorder, and everything associated with the recorder. i reckon that for around £10K you'd could be up and running. Which is not a lot for staring a business. The bank would easily lend you this level of funding provided you drew up a decent business plan, and could show venue buy in to the scheme.

One thing you might consider doing is offering to pay the venues a fee for hosting your equipment on site.

And perhaps buy me a beer next time you see me

[soundian]

I've never had a problem using passive splitters so I'd investigate this option,although it does mean putting some of your equipment in the signal chain as well, which is not something most engineers would like to do.

Cloud, the stereo mix from the desk is quite often unusable for anything except the band to get an idea of how well they played and how well the songs work, which it's hard to be objective about when you're actually playing. Things like vocals, kick drums, keys, anything that's not amplified itself, are pushed up in the mix, whereas guitars basses etc are mixed in (if at all) with the sound coming from the stage. If it was feasible, everyone would do it and not bother with multi-track recording.

[IamScrooge]

Cor, I always feel sorry for you working soundguys, so many people just dont seem to 'get' the fact that live sound is A)not as easy as it seems, and B)expensive.

TBH I'm not even keen on the stage splitter idea, in a professional situation the recording truck will pull up with a sufficient well maintained active/transformer isolated split and give no hassle whatsoever. But I can just imagine Aberdonians turning up to gigs with some horrible behringer-esque mic splitter, causing ground loops, unbalancing the connectors, shorting the phantom power and sucking tone everywhere

To the OP - The live recording thing is a cool idea, I know someone who does this already in Aberdeen. But, considering the Moorings is all set up for this anyway, why would you want to record live anywhere else?

Incidentally, I notice that the tunnels has this big 'mackie' thing going for some reason. I dont suppose they're using one of those new Onyx desks? Because the firewire option for that desk would make multitrack recording there a breeze!

[emergency72]

Cor' date=' I always feel sorry for you working soundguys, so many people just dont seem to 'get' the fact that live sound is A)not as easy as it seems, and B)expensive.[/quote']

This is why live sound in Aberdeen has been shit for the past 10 years I can remember...

[Flash@TMB]

But I can just imagine Aberdonians turning up to gigs with some horrible behringer-esque mic splitter' date=' causing ground loops, unbalancing the connectors, shorting the phantom power and sucking tone everywhere [/quote']

Now that's just far too much information LMAO!!!