Genevieve signed??

[betamax]

I agree with a lot of what you've said!

My Sundaramusic stuff will always be free!!!

and funnily enough its usually the free music that shines (like Sundaramusic!)

K.B.K. will also always be free too unless theres any professional involvement.....if we could play live for free we would everytime but obviously its the venue policies to charge on the door dammit

[Frosty Jack]

Main point no one ever seems to get: If you do this whole music thing to make money or even ''break even''' date=' then give up now. Go to college and get a job in a bank. If you DIY, you are talking pennies and wasting a lot of time counting them. If you get signed you are talking lots of cash. But not for you. Youll be in debt for years.

Nothing against Geneveeve though, Im talking about the broader issue of bands fooling themselves that they can be sellable or profitable commodities.[/quote']

That's a depressingly black-and-white view though, and not exactly accurate imo. I know plenty of people who do very nicely selling their own product, and without being in any debt to anyone. Write their songs, record their songs, perform their songs, sell their songs = nice life. If you make something people want, why not sell it?

To use your analogy, if I make a cool train in my shed, you're saying my choice is to either sell it to the EnormoCorp Train Co. for them to make money on, or give it away for free. What if my neighbour wants to give me money for it, should I refuse? Or should I take his money, use it to make lots more trains, take them to the model-makers fair and sell them too? If I can make a decent amount of money doing that, then it's all good, no?

[futureboy]

Im just against charging money for something which is the product of a hobby. Which is realistically all demos and EPs are. Its like somebody making imitation toy trains in a shed and then selling them for more than a real train' date=' when all their only investment or business risk has been a few evenings work and the cost of some glue and balsa wood. ''But hey Ive got to pay for my Glue and Blasa wood maaaan!, and what about the cost of lighting my shed!!!!....If Im gonna build the HMS Victory and sell it to the Royal Navy then ill need to recoup my expenditaure on powering this 40 watt light bulb and the purchase of this workbench from Argos!!!!......and dont forget the cost of the petrol to the model-makers fair in Wigan!!! I want that back too!!! So I can pretend Im professional!!!''

Get real.

From personal experience Ive had songs Ive written on both commercial realeases and done freebie demos etc and made the same from both .....next to nothing (after every else one else involved has taken their cut). But when I do a demo to hand round, Im sorry but Id be embarressed to ask people for money for it. Not because of the quality, but simply because a demo is not a commercial commodity, just something I did in my spare time, and would have done anyway for my own fun, so why ask my mates to give me cash for it????

Main point no one ever seems to get: If you do this whole music thing to make money or even ''break even'', then give up now. Go to college and get a job in a bank. If you DIY, you are talking pennies and wasting a lot of time counting them. If you get signed you are talking lots of cash. But not for you. Youll be in debt for years.

Nothing against Geneveeve though, Im talking about the broader issue of bands fooling themselves that they can be sellable or profitable commodities.

Plus: Music should be free anyway. (another thread)[/quote']

So in your opinion, if you have a wee spark of talent, or think you have, and choose to try building on a life using said talent because hey that's what you do and dream of doing, then don't! Stop and get a job! Am I correct?

This seems a tad bitter and I will add pathetic. Oh an funny!

[Jim Stax]

and funnily enough its usually the free music that shines (like Sundaramusic!)

K.B.K. will also always be free too unless theres any professional involvement.....if we could play live for free we would everytime but obviously its the venue policies to charge on the door dammit

Huh? "professional involvement"? What does that open ended statement mean, especially after all you have said?

and you can play anytime you like. You don't have to take a fee for a gig! Leave your cash with the venue or promoter who I'm sure would put it to good use.

Very thoughtfull of you to post on here that you will play for free.

J

[Guest MKII]

Professional involvement = substantial overheads?

[jester1470]

Huh? "professional involvement"? What does that open ended statement mean' date=' especially after all you have said?

and you can play anytime you like. You don't have to take a fee for a gig! Leave your cash with the venue or promoter who I'm sure would put it to good use.

Very thoughtfull of you to post on here that you will play for free.

J

[/quote']

That's an interesting question, I know the definition of professional is when you do it as a job usually, but there are some jobs where you become 'professional' as soon as someone pays you to do something. Therefore are not all musicians to a degree professional. I'm a bit confused as to why you would feel the need to not make money, surely if you can finance what you do because people want to buy your stuff then it enables you to then go forward and make better recordings next time, pay for a better studio etc and maybe make them more polished (if thats what you want). Sometimes bands cant achieve the sound they want without spending some money, if you can get that recouped then that's a good thing, seems a bit silly to spend all your money creating something for other people (as well as yourself) and then losing money when you give that music to other people if they're willing to pay it. Surely the goal of most musicians is to be able to make a living out of it and devote all their time to something they love, to do that then you have to charge, and where do you start?

Cheers

Stuart

[Jim Stax]

Professional involvement = substantial overheads?

= The same as everyone else and therefore cancelling most of his argument!o_O

[Jim Stax]

That's an interesting question' date=' I know the definition of professional is when you do it as a job usually, but there are some jobs where you become 'professional' as soon as someone pays you to do something. Therefore are not all musicians to a degree professional. I'm a bit confused as to why you would feel the need to not make money, surely if you can finance what you do because people want to buy your stuff then it enables you to then go forward and make better recordings next time, pay for a better studio etc and maybe make them more polished (if thats what you want). Sometimes bands cant achieve the sound they want without spending some money, if you can get that recouped then that's a good thing, seems a bit silly to spend all your money creating something for other people (as well as yourself) and then losing money when you give that music to other people if they're willing to pay it. Surely the goal of most musicians is to be able to make a living out of it and devote all their time to something they love, to do that then you have to charge, and where do you start?

Cheers

Stuart[/quote']

We are kinda, nearly, and more or less on the same page there Stuart! Crack the champers

[Guest MKII]

But some bands have a cheek asking for money for the music they sell!

[Frosty Jack]

But some bands have a cheek asking for money for the music they sell!

That's probably true' date=' but it's

a) A matter of opinion - what sounds like a burning pet shop to you might be the soundtrack to someone else's dreams

b)Not the point in hand here.

What Mr Bittermax seems to be claiming is that [i']no-one should ever charge money for something they've made themselves, no matter how good it is (unless there is 'professional involvement'?)

[betamax]

....''or think you have''....THATS A CLUE!

So in your opinion' date=' if you have a wee spark of talent,[b'] or think you have, and choose to try building on a life using said talent because hey that's what you do and dream of doing, then don't! Stop and get a job! Am I correct?

This seems a tad bitter and I will add pathetic. Oh an funny!

laugh if you want you idiotboy

but no

I mean just be realistic and dont get your hopes up about making a career in music, especially if making money is high up your list of motives for doing music in the first place - which judging by some of clueless and naive shit being written here, it blatantly is. Generally, the people who excel at music and have genuine talent and inspiration rarely consider doing it for cash when they start out. If they later make cash as a by-product of said talent, thats a bonus, but it seems theres quite a few wide eyed idoits lurking in aberdeen who have put cash up the agenda even higher than say ''enjoyment''. Taking it FAR too seriously imo, especially when you look at what talent there actually is. Its bullshit quite frankly. With a touch of ego fuelled blindness.

So what Im saying is not ''stop'' its just make sure you do it for the right reasons ansd stay real, or yes you would be better off working at the TSB, and probably have more chance of acheiving your dream of riches if you put a few quid on the Lottery every week.

I think statistically Im right on this. How many bands ever get to do it for a living compared the millions of bands there are in the world?

[GraemeC]

But some bands have a cheek asking for money for the music they sell!

Thats possibly true enough but its down to the purchaser surely, most of whats in the music charts I think they have a cheek asking for money for....o_O

[betamax]

''seems to be claiming'' - your point is void

That's probably true' date=' but it's

a) A matter of opinion - what sounds like a burning pet shop to you might be the soundtrack to someone else's dreams

b)Not the point in hand here.

What Mr Bittermax [b']seems to be claiming is that no-one should ever charge money for something they've made themselves, no matter how good it is (unless there is 'professional involvement'?)

You are twisting words Frosty Ass

Money as a by-product of success and talent is fine

Extracting money for your demos generally does not come under that heading IMO

But If people want to do get into the whole money thing before theyve even cut their musical teeth then fine it cool, but beware of the dangers, more bands fight and split up because of cash than girlfriends!

Like the sound of the pet shop thing though. Patent that.

[betamax]

Professional involvement = substantial overheads?

I just mean, once you have professional involvement like label staff or a full time manager etc, then they need to be payed so its impossible to keep it all free. But untill then, Im all for keeping it free. Charging people for what you do for your own enjoyment in your free time seems twatish/pretentious to me. Most musos are pretentious twats* like so its logical.

*This is a fact - I did it at University.

[betamax]

Very thoughtfull of you to post on here that you will play for free.

J

we usually play for free, we certainly never ask to be payed but occasionally a pushy promoter trys to pay us and then we ask for Red Wine instead

[Guest MKII]

I just mean' date=' once you have professional involvement like label staff or a full time manager etc.[/quote']

Does jester54321 count?

sorry Stuart

[jester1470]

Does jester54321 count?

sorry Stuart

Nah cos I dont get paid

Cheers

Stuart

[futureboy]

laugh if you want you idiotboy

Generally' date=' the people who excel at music and have genuine talent and inspiration rarely consider doing it for cash when they start out. [/quote']

Ah I see now Mr Spankmyass By saying that you do not make music for money reasons and because your need is great then you claim to be highly talented and we are not worthy?

Makes sense now!

How old are you?

Are you in a band?

Do you have mates?

You sound like you are a 30 something thats never made, or likely to, and you have become twisted and cynical!

The term DEMO - a demonstration of what you do and primarily for handing over purposes. Do not mistake that for a cd with a great deal of money spent on it and in essence a self release of which a charge is absolutely fucking fine in my and many's book!!!

[jester1470]

You are twisting words Frosty Ass

Money as a by-product of success and talent is fine

Extracting money for your demos generally does not come under that heading IMO

But If people want to do get into the whole money thing before theyve even cut their musical teeth then fine it cool' date=' but beware of the dangers, more bands fight and split up because of cash than girlfriends!

Like the sound of the pet shop thing though. Patent that.[/quote']

Your first bit doesnt tie into this comment though does it:

Plus: Music should be free anyway. (another thread)

How can even talented people make money if they cant charge for anything or are you changing your arguement now ?

Cheers

Stuart

[betamax]

Ah I see now Mr Spankmyass By saying that you do not make music for money reasons and because your need is great then you claim to be highly talented and we are not worthy?

Makes sense now!

How old are you?

Are you in a band?

Do you have mates?

You sound like you are a 30 something thats never made' date=' or likely to, and you have become twisted and cynical!

The term DEMO - a demonstration of what you do and primarily for handing over purposes. Do not mistake that for a cd with a great deal of money spent on it and in essence a self release of which a charge is absolutely fucking fine in my and many's book!!![/quote']

Im glad we disagree, you sound like me when I was also 14 and a half. I grew up eventually. If I send you a Thomas and Freinds annual you might understand it?

im only against making money as one of the main motives....im sure Ive said that bit already yus? theres pound signs in the eyes of many a shit band and its quite ugly

PS. Ive accidentally made loads of money from music, and still do from time to time, but its not why I do it.

[betamax]

Your first bit doesnt tie into this comment though does it:

How can even talented people make money if they cant charge for anything or are you changing your arguement now ?

Cheers

Stuart

learn to read and engage your fucking brain for once you tit

[Scorge]

No' date=' it isn't. The spindles of CDr's have to be bought, for a start, and they're £12 a go. Then you might have a situation, as I have at the moment, where the artwork eats up the printer ink like a bastard. Ink cartridges are hooringly expensive these days so it all adds up. I'm only asking £2 for the current SPD release, and the way things are going I'm going to lose money on it.[/quote']

At the risk of being boastful, our postal overheads are fairly steep too.

It's a hobby, however every little helps to keep things ticking over.......

[soundian]

K.B.K. will also always be free too unless theres any professional involvement

What Mr Bittermax seems to be claiming is that no-one should ever charge money for something they've made themselves' date=' no matter how good it is (unless there is 'professional involvement'?)[/quote']

You are twisting words Frosty Ass

I don't see much word-twisting there.

[Hog]

we ask for Red Wine instead

Best payment ever.

[jester1470]

learn to read and engage your fucking brain for once you tit

I'm just asking how the 2 can work hand in hand, thats all. No reason to get insulting etc, can't you handle people questioning what you're saying without slagging them off ? You seem to be contradicting yourself and I'm just trying to find out what you mean,

Cheers

Stuart