anti-NF protest on Monday Oct. 25th

[Doc]

i just think his and ASF's failures to see that people are individuals and don't need help to make their own choices as to who they should vote for or what political actions they should take based upon their own opinions and thoughts is particularly suspicious and their "i am right and you are wrong" method of preaching their politics to obviously lesser mortals like myself and yourself is something i won't tolerate' date=' i don't mind people having opinions but trying to inflict them upon others is wrong, that authoritarian attitude is distasteful and doesn't leave room for alternative viewpoints on society

i don't agree with anything the NF do or say nor do i agree with any group threatening the livelihoods of other people which is why i think they ought to be stopped because no group that threatens people with violence or death should be tolerated, i don't mind them having an opinion about politics but not at the expense of people's basic right to live[/quote']

Very true. I hate being patronised or pressured by these holier than thou clowns. I consider politicians and their like to be lower forms of life than say a nurse or a teacher and I won't have any such narrow minded control freaks tell me how I should think or feel.

An even lower form of life, of course, is the NF and their kind. It just annoys me when these anti demo people are so afraid that I'm so stupid as to be turned into an NF supporter just because they march along union street that they make such a hullabaloo about it and give the bastards even more publicity, then are too obtuse to see they've been had!

[Flossie T Sheep]

Flossie T Sheep:

If you found yourself victimized for your views would you not seek out more like-minded individuals?

why should i?' date=' i don't need to join a club or join a group of like-minded people so my opinions can be accepted, i am not looking for people to nod in unison to anything i say, you can either accept my opinions or not, i am not here to lecture anyone or ram my opinions down anyone's throat.

i have seen it before in political parties though, one politician will stray from an issue that the party is united in agreement with then the next thing that happens is that he/she will disagree and end up resigning as a result because they're victimised for expressing views that do not tow the party's line and i have seen that same issue with charity organisations and pressure groups too.

If you found the environment authoritarian would you not seek to create a more open minded one with like-minded individuals?

no i wouldn't because i don't need to seek like-minded individuals to agree with me, i am not looking for agreement or validation by a bunch of yes men/yes women, i want to be challenged by people who doesn't agree with me and hear their opinions on what they think a solution would be to a problem and i want to challenge their opinions too and give my own solutions, i don't want to sit there preaching to the already converted

Your suggestion seems to be that all organised political activity amounts to mob/gang mentality that strives for mass uniformity in numbers which though I might accept is occasionally the case, it is just laughable to suggest it is like that all the time.

its laughable because its true, if its not true then why do you arrange meetings with each other? why do you arrange all these gatherings together? why do you all look to each other for acceptance in your opinions?

you were the one suggesting to me that i seek like-minded individuals, you are the butt of your own laughable joke there my friend

As for you point about voting: You seem to assume that if more people voted they would for someone other than the Labour party which as a questionable assumption. It suggests that there is I group of people that dont vote and if they did vote they would vote for someone else. Im not sure this theory is backed up by any research...

the problem is researching the point of the theory too much and not getting to the point and carrying out the theory itself, go figure

What do you guys think political activism is? How in a political process do you think your voice can be heard?

If a community wants improved public services, speedbumps, improved lesure facilities they are not going to get these by voting once every four years!

If your have a particular issue about say for example the destruction of a nature reserve youre not going to put this issue on the political agenda by voting once every four years!

If you are unhappy about some aspect of UK foreign policy youre not going to highlight this issue by voting once every four years!

I would hope youre starting to see what Im getting at... Political activism can refer to a whole range of issues parents writing to councillors to prevent the closure of a local school; people writing to their local MP to protest about the lack of debt relief for Less Developed Countries; even campaigning within a political party to get it to adopt a policy It is about having some effect on the environment in which you live and has far more impact than simply voting every four years.

As I have already said if you only vote you cannot influence the policies of the parties you elect to power. Now lets have debate about that rather than some of the silliness which seems to pervade some opinions!

but at the end of the day, who are you writing these letters to?

the guy/lady/party you voted in of course

[Guest allsystemsfail]

i just think his and ASF's failures to see that people are individuals and don't need help to make their own choices as to who they should vote for or what political actions they should take based upon their own opinions and thoughts is particularly suspicious and their "i am right and you are wrong" method of preaching their politics to obviously lesser mortals like myself and yourself is something i won't tolerate' date=' i don't mind people having opinions but trying to inflict them upon others is wrong, that authoritarian attitude is distasteful and doesn't leave room for alternative viewpoints on society

i don't agree with anything the NF do or say nor do i agree with any group threatening the livelihoods of other people which is why i think they ought to be stopped because no group that threatens people with violence or death should be tolerated, i don't mind them having an opinion about politics but not at the expense of people's basic right to live[/quote']

I'm an anarchist, and it is not the wish of anarchists to instruct others in what they should and should not do. It is not our intention to enforce what we believe correct, but to suggest - get a message out there. To anarchists, control is an anathema. We seek only to encourage others to take control of their own lives - to reject authority, political control, to throw off their shackles and live as free individuals. Sure, I'm gonna say what I think, but I do not think my opinions of any greater worth than others. I claim no superiority. Yes, I can be a little aggressive in expressing what I believe, but has never been my intention to push what I think down people's throats. I'm extremely passionate about my politics, and I will defend my corner.

And my being authoritarian? Well, that would rather contradict my politics would it not? I ain't got a problem with discussion - the expression of other points of view. I welcome it.

And finally, so you DO believe the NF should be stopped, not be permitted to march. And regarding the NF, your point was well made.

[Guest allsystemsfail]

An even lower form of life' date=' of course, is the NF and their kind. It just annoys me when these anti demo people are so afraid that I'm so stupid as to be turned into an NF supporter just because they march along union street that they make such a hullabaloo about it and give the bastards even more publicity, then are too obtuse to see they've been had![/quote']

It is not that I believe that people are stupid. However, you must understand that many, who may find themselves in desperate circumstances, could be attracted to the politics of the far right. They're seeking solutions, but see none. The mainstream political parties are not listening. They're looking for someone to blame. The far right feed on such feelings.They seek to exploit people's fears.

And regarding those who like myself oppose the NF - no one has been had. Sure, by protesting their activities they do indeed receive greater attention. However, they gotta be stopped. It's unfortunate that by doing so that the far right do gain some publicity, but that's just how it is.

[Doc]

It is not that I believe that people are stupid. However' date=' you must understand that many, who may find themselves in desperate circumstances, could be attracted to the politics of the far right. They're seeking solutions, but see none. The mainstream political parties are not listening. They're looking for someone to blame. The far right feed on such feelings.They seek to exploit people's fears.

And regarding those who like myself oppose the NF - no one has been had. Sure, by protesting their activities they do indeed receive greater attention. However, they gotta be stopped. It's unfortunate that by doing so that the far right do gain some publicity, but that's just how it is.[/quote']

Thanks to reading your website, I now realise more fully where you're coming from and I respect your ideals. It is true the mainstream parties do not listen and it is those that I accuse of arrogance and of being out of touch.

What I seek in those we chose to run the country is a working health service, trains that run on time, bins that get emptied, emergency services, an end to poverty, plenty of work, a well defended country and so forth.

I don't need a politician to tell me how to discipline my kids, what to eat or drink, when to drink, when or where to smoke, how to relate to my wife, whether I should go foxhunting or not (I don't, monkey, so don't get your high horse out )!! These things are fuck all to do with government.

But however pissed off i've been and I've been very pissed off, however poor and desperate i've been and i've been those too, I've never resorted to extremes or things not in my nature. It's not in my nature to blame immigrants, blacks or homosexuals for the ills of the world so I would never resort to the politics of the far right although there are surely those who would.

I would challenge your choice of words regarding the NF...gotta be stopped, when they are staying within the law is authoritanian and surely against your beliefs. Challenged, yes by all means. Shown as the extremists that they are, definitely. But not their rights taken away when they've have done nothing legally wrong. That makes your worse than them.

[Guest allsystemsfail]

I would challenge your choice of words regarding the NF...gotta be stopped' date=' when they are staying within the law is authoritanian and surely against your beliefs. Challenged, yes by all means. Shown as the extremists that they are, definitely. But not their rights taken away when they've have done nothing legally wrong. That makes your worse than them.[/quote']

While my view may appear to conflict with my politics - my belief in freedom, the far right seek to deny the rights of others - are opposed to freedom. They seek to squash all in their path who oppose them, and so should be stopped. I ain't talking censorship, but self defence.

[Flossie T Sheep]

I'm an anarchist' date=' and it is not the wish of anarchists to instruct others in what they should and should not do. It is not our intention to enforce what we believe correct, but to suggest - get a message out there. To anarchists, control is an anathema. We seek only to encourage others to take control of their own lives - to reject authority, political control, to throw off their shackles and live as free individuals.[/quote']

how would you seek to gain and then implement an anarchic society devoid of any order and control?, i am assuming you're talking about a society where there are no laws or rules that anyone adheres to, that is?

if that is the case then wouldn't that be a far more dangerous society to live in where people are free to do whatever they want?

by doing that, groups like the far right would be free to roam the streets and kill anybody they wanted and walk off scot-free wouldn't they?

Sure, I'm gonna say what I think, but I do not think my opinions of any greater worth than others. I claim no superiority. Yes, I can be a little aggressive in expressing what I believe, but has never been my intention to push what I think down people's throats. I'm extremely passionate about my politics, and I will defend my corner.

well you did think your opinions were far more worthy than people who weren't affiliated with any activist groups a couple of days ago and i am not going to be pedantic by quoting what you said verbatim or providing a handy weblink to your offending post but nevermind, nice to see you've changed your tune a bit

And my being authoritarian? Well, that would rather contradict my politics would it not? I ain't got a problem with discussion - the expression of other points of view. I welcome it.

i have no idea what your policies would be and how you would implement them in such a society as the UK's but i would be interested to know if you care to explain.

And finally, so you DO believe the NF should be stopped, not be permitted to march. And regarding the NF, your point was well made.

i don't think any extremist groups who threaten the livelihood of people should be given any platform to threaten people with murder or violence, i would class the likes of Nick Griffin to be just as puerile as Abu Hamza in the way they have spread such hate-mongering filth that has caused much harm to people

i don't think that people in Aberdeen are that naive to have watch such a pointless and aimless march and immediately be seduced by the ideals of the National Front and want to become goosestepping Nazis overnight, i just don't think that is plausible in the slightest degree, i think people shown how disgusted they were with the whole thing and took umbrage to the fact that they made inroads to trying to stage a march here and failed in their attempts

the thing i think they did succeed in was gaining as much publicity from it because any outrage and controversy they can garner from such fiascos and farces which get their name in the newspapers and get their shaven headed mugs on the telly is all they ever look for, they see that as a victory because they ruffled a few feathers but in the end

i am sure there are people in Aberdeen who would make efforts to stop a gay pride march or an Orange Lodge march happening as well because they don't agree with such things,i don't know if there's been such marches in Aberdeen as i don't live there and work mainly around the Central Belt most of the time but i can imagine there's some people in the city who would've complained about such marches occurring or being organised too, if that is the case and such groups cause people offence then should they be stopped from marching too?

[Guest allsystemsfail]

how would you seek to gain and then implement an anarchic society devoid of any order and control?' date=' i am assuming you're talking about a society where there are no laws or rules that anyone adheres to, that is?

if that is the case then wouldn't that be a far more dangerous society to live in where people are free to do whatever they want?

by doing that, groups like the far right would be free to roam the streets and kill anybody they wanted and walk off scot-free wouldn't they?

well you did think your opinions were far more worthy than people who weren't affiliated with any activist groups a couple of days ago and i am not going to be pedantic by quoting what you said verbatim or providing a handy weblink to your offending post but nevermind, nice to see you've changed your tune a bit

i have no idea what your policies would be and how you would implement them in such a society as the UK's but i would be interested to know if you care to explain.

i don't think any extremist groups who threaten the livelihood of people should be given any platform to threaten people with murder or violence, i would class the likes of Nick Griffin to be just as puerile as Abu Hamza in the way they have spread such hate-mongering filth that has caused much harm to people

i don't think that people in Aberdeen are that naive to have watch such a pointless and aimless march and immediately be seduced by the ideals of the National Front and want to become goosestepping Nazis overnight, i just don't think that is plausible in the slightest degree, i think people shown how disgusted they were with the whole thing and took umbrage to the fact that they made inroads to trying to stage a march here and failed in their attempts

the thing i think they did succeed in was gaining as much publicity from it because any outrage and controversy they can garner from such fiascos and farces which get their name in the newspapers and get their shaven headed mugs on the telly is all they ever look for, they see that as a victory because they ruffled a few feathers but in the end

i am sure there are people in Aberdeen who would make efforts to stop a gay pride march or an Orange Lodge march happening as well because they don't agree with such things,i don't know if there's been such marches in Aberdeen as i don't live there and work mainly around the Central Belt most of the time but i can imagine there's some people in the city who would've complained about such marches occurring or being organised too, if that is the case and such groups cause people offence then should they be stopped from marching too?[/quote']

Any questions regarding anarchism? Suggest you visit http://www.anarchistfaq.org

However, some points.

People would not be free to do whatever they want. Those whose beliefs and actions are authoritarian, and so infringe on the liberties of others, would be stopped. The NF could be one such group.

And no, I did not think my views more worthy than those who do not take political action. I said only that I was tired of folks who do little politically taking swipes at those who were politically active and who are getting out there and doing shit..

Regarding folks not being seduced by the politics of the far right - care to explain the BNPs electoral success?

A gay pride event may indeed cause some offence. However, you cannot compare the activities of the gay community with that of the far right or Orange Order. To do so is simply ridiculous. Does the gay community preach hatred? No, tolerance. Acceptance.

[monkey]

Flossie T Sheep: - Thank you for a comprehensive (!) response to the comments I posted. Although I have to say I disagree with almost everything you said!

You say you never asked for my CV but asked what I had done that makes our society better. It is pointless to post what I think I have done to make society better because 1. As I have already told you better is wholly subjective concept, 2. It has no relevance to a discussion of activism (and if it does please tell me what relevance it has), 3. We will just end up arguing over whether particular activities do or do not make society better, and 4. Its is quite simply none of your business.

On your point of voting and for the last time: I never said I abhorred voting as you say I do. You seem to be obsessed with the process of voting, and have clearly misunderstood what I have said, as you suggest I say all kinds of things that (having reread my own posts) are clearly not opinions I have expressed. I will try and answer each of these in turn.

You say that a democratic system ultimately it comes down to peoples own freedom of choice as to who they cast their vote with [for?]. This is a wholly simplistic view of democracy as I have repeatedly tried to suggest. And if you have the chance to read anything of the vast literature on democracy you will see that this is the case.

Democracy is not about voting. Voting is the simply the most obvious and least effective process by which people express their political opinions. Democracy also involves a huge number of other complex processes that allow us the people to more or less effectively express our views. Democracy is also a culture, and in fact many argue culture is the most important part of democracy.

To illustrate this point take Iraq and Afghanistan: If there were elections in Iraq tomorrow would Iraq be a democracy? Afghanistan has just had elections does that make it a democracy? The answer is unfortunately no. You cannot simply create a democracy by imposing an electoral system on a society. This suggests that there is something more to democracy than voting. Which has been my point all along. If democracy as about government by the people for the people then simply voting every four years IS NOT DEMOCRACY. All the social and political institutions in any democracy must CONSTANTLY involve us the people in that process.

for the record' date=' isn't helping people with making their decisions as to who they vote for taking people's democratic right to vote for whoever they want to vote for a bit of a flawed and fruitless process?, its like saying "here, i think you need a hand or a little push to who i think you should vote for"[/quote']

This sentence seems a little irrelevant as nowhere did I say that I helped, or helped others help, people with making the decisions as to who they vote for. I said I had been involved in a process that helped find out the issues and opinions of communities by inviting them to express their views to elected and no elected officials. In order to help establish and maintain more effective and responsive government and government in which, us the people, have a direct say in the decisions taken at a local level AND NOT SIMPLY ONCE EVERY FOUR YEARS!

Thats your own definition of democracy as how you perceive it to be' date=' once again you're preaching and showing this "i'm right and you're wrong" attitude that i find extremely suspicious and a bit creepy [/quote']

I posted a definition of democracy because we were, in part, having a conversation about democracy. If you dont agree with the definition then post a different one. If I have an im right and youre wrong attitude then its, quite simply, because I do think your wrong. However I am, unlike some, happy to debate these issues and tell you why I think you are wrong, and happy to hear you think im wrong.

i will involve myself in any discussion i see fit to involve myself in' date=' don't dictate to me what i can and can't talk about, i just find it odd that you can seem to think you're a higher authority than anyone else when it comes to such discussions because you think that involving yourself with activist groups makes you more right or correct than anyone else on a subject of interest such as the National Front. [/quote']

I never said you couldnt involve yourself in any discussion you wanted to, but I did think it a little odd for you suggested that this discussion was pointless by posting/contributing to it! Also I never suggested I was a higher authority as you put it, I suggested that I disagreed with your expressed opinions. I also NEVER SAID I WAS AN ACTIVIST and have thus NEVER ONCE SAID THAT BEING INVOLVED IN SUCH GROUPS MADE ME MORE CORRECT THAN ANYONE ELSE! Show me exactly where it is that I said this.

the main point i raised is that they were seeking to garner as much publicity and outrage from their endeavours to march in Aberdeen and judging by the amount of threads written about the NF' date=' i think they succeeded in their efforts. well done, you played straight into their hands mate. [/quote']

I think that it is laughable to suggest that threads on aberdeen-music.com are a source of publicity for the National Front. These threads have been almost exclusively negative about that group and been discussions of that possible publicity. If you think that me posting negative things about them is playing into their hands then... well Im completely mystified as to your logic there. o_O

there's always going to be fascism or such fundamentalist extremist elements in the world no matter how much shouting and placard-waving and protests you involve yourself in' date=' you're fighting a losing battle to try and stop it and besides why would you seek to put these factions underground anyway?, isn't it better to keep them in sight so you can identify who they are to keep your eye on them in case they cause trouble and violence against the people they hate? [/quote']

I completely agree there will always be fascism and other fundamentalist extremist elements. As for fighting a losing battle to try and stop it thats just ridiculous. They must constantly be tackled and challenged for their views. Elements of the NF and similar organisations are always underground and most members have histories of violence. I dont understand why you dont see the contradictory nature of arguing both that I give them publicity by posting on a thread about them and at the same time recognising that it is important to keep your eye on them.

I am I think arguing with my brain. I try an put forward reasoned arguments, if I disagree it is because I fail to see the logic of the argument posted, or fail to see the rational behind it.

I look forward to your reply.

[Flossie T Sheep]

You say you never asked for my CV but asked what I had done that makes our society better. It is pointless to post what I think I have done to make society better because 1. As I have already told you better is wholly subjective concept' date=' 2. It has no relevance to a discussion of activism (and if it does please tell me what relevance it has), 3. We will just end up arguing over whether particular activities do or do not make society better, and 4. Its is quite simply none of your business.[/quote']

you say it has no relevance to the discussion of activism so please tell me why you have involved yourself in the arguments below as well as the arguments that aren't about activism in this thread? and if continuously arguing about such subjects bothers you, as it clearly seems to, then why involve yourself in those arguments in the tiresome fashion you do?

if its none of my business then you shouldn't mention things about yourself you don't want to talk about then should you?, its your problem mate, not mine

On your point of voting and for the last time: I never said I abhorred voting as you say I do. You seem to be obsessed with the process of voting, and have clearly misunderstood what I have said, as you suggest I say all kinds of things that (having reread my own posts) are clearly not opinions I have expressed. I will try and answer each of these in turn.

you were arguing the point about the voting process that various people like myself discussed, i never realised discussing voting was being obsessed about it, my wrong

i don't think you're in any position to talk about talking about subjects obsessively anyway, you've been continuously talking about the National Front on not one but two threads have you not?

Democracy is not about voting. Voting is the simply the most obvious and least effective process by which people express their political opinions. Democracy also involves a huge number of other complex processes that allow us the people to more or less effectively express our views. Democracy is also a culture, and in fact many argue culture is the most important part of democracy.

no-one said democracy was simply about voting, you're looking for arguments that don't exist and fighting with your own shadow

To illustrate this point take Iraq and Afghanistan: If there were elections in Iraq tomorrow would Iraq be a democracy? Afghanistan has just had elections does that make it a democracy? The answer is unfortunately no. You cannot simply create a democracy by imposing an electoral system on a society. This suggests that there is something more to democracy than voting. Which has been my point all along. If democracy as about government by the people for the people then simply voting every four years IS NOT DEMOCRACY. All the social and political institutions in any democracy must CONSTANTLY involve us the people in that process.

they still need people to vote don't they?, the people vote to put who they want in power don't they?, or are you saying that we have no involvement in the voting process at all now?

whichever way you look at it, the country needs a system in place for it to run and maintain itself in some form or another

This sentence seems a little irrelevant as nowhere did I say that I helped, or helped others help, people with making the decisions as to who they vote for. I said I had been involved in a process that helped find out the issues and opinions of communities by inviting them to express their views to elected and no elected officials. In order to help establish and maintain more effective and responsive government and government in which, us the people, have a direct say in the decisions taken at a local level AND NOT SIMPLY ONCE EVERY FOUR YEARS!

i asked you to explain what it is you do and once again, you skim past the point to try and dilly dally around the subject by arguing about nothing at all

I posted a definition of democracy because we were, in part, having a conversation about democracy. If you dont agree with the definition then post a different one. If I have an im right and youre wrong attitude then its, quite simply, because I do think your wrong. However I am, unlike some, happy to debate these issues and tell you why I think you are wrong, and happy to hear you think im wrong.

i don't need to post any definitions because everyone has a different definition of what democracy is to them. please explain to me what i am so wrong in? did i post anything where i claimed i was right?

i don't even know what you're meant to be debating anyway now because your arguments don't seem to have any meaning at all

I never said you couldnt involve yourself in any discussion you wanted to, but I did think it a little odd for you suggested that this discussion was pointless by posting/contributing to it!

i, like anyone else who contributes to this forum, will involve myself in any discussion i wish. again, you missed the point of what i said and you're arguing about nothing in particular once again in your trademark tiresome fashion.

I think that it is laughable to suggest that threads on aberdeen-music.com are a source of publicity for the National Front. These threads have been almost exclusively negative about that group and been discussions of that possible publicity. If you think that me posting negative things about them is playing into their hands then... well Im completely mystified as to your logic there. o_O

i doubt any moderators here would allow the National Front or their sympathisers to post on here anyway so thats a pretty useless answer to that question. Publicity can be generate in positive or negative ways, the main aim is to provoke a reaction or a response from their actions and thats all those groups are concerned about, they want people to pay attention to them because no-one will ever take their brand of politics seriously.

the fact of the matter is that people like yourself have paid them so much attention already for a matter thats been resolved, this thread was about stopping the march and so it has been stopped, what more is there to talk about?

I completely agree there will always be fascism and other fundamentalist extremist elements. As for fighting a losing battle to try and stop it thats just ridiculous. They must constantly be tackled and challenged for their views. Elements of the NF and similar organisations are always underground and most members have histories of violence. I dont understand why you dont see the contradictory nature of arguing both that I give them publicity by posting on a thread about them and at the same time recognising that it is important to keep your eye on them.

no, my point was that these threads were started so people could find ways to stop the march happening, it never happened - game over, end of story and goodnight Vienna, case closed yeah? cool, now get off your high horse.

I am I think arguing with my brain. I try an put forward reasoned arguments, if I disagree it is because I fail to see the logic of the argument posted, or fail to see the rational behind it.

I look forward to your reply.

just echoing Doc's post - "You have become tiresome and irrelevant now"

[soundian]

"Ours is the worst form of democracy, except for all the others."

Sorry if I've misquoted Mr Churchill but you get my drift.

[Flossie T Sheep]

Any questions regarding anarchism? Suggest you visit http://www.anarchistfaq.org

However' date=' some points.

People would not be free to do whatever they want. Those whose beliefs and actions are authoritarian, and so infringe on the liberties of others, would be stopped. The NF could be one such group.[/quote']

that website explains a lot, thanks for bringing it to my attention Mr. ASF, i see where you're coming from now but to be honest, i don't think it will ever be a reality in my lifetime or your's.

And no, I did not think my views more worthy than those who do not take political action. I said only that I was tired of folks who do little politically taking swipes at those who were politically active and who are getting out there and doing shit.

i think life would be a lot better if people were less indolent and apathetic and took an individual approach to changing things their way without resorting to extremist actions and infringing on the rights of other people but i think people are generally happy with their lot and are too comfortable with someone else taking control of their lives, thats the sad reality

Regarding folks not being seduced by the politics of the far right - care to explain the BNPs electoral success?

i would say thats occurred due to groups like that highlighting problems like immigration and terrorism and using them to their advantage to be perfectly honest with you

A gay pride event may indeed cause some offence. However, you cannot compare the activities of the gay community with that of the far right or Orange Order. To do so is simply ridiculous. Does the gay community preach hatred? No, tolerance. Acceptance.

i am not comparing them, i am talking about the reactions they might cause to certain people, i know the difference between a gay pride march and an NF march, they are polar opposites, i think anyone who doesn't realise that would be extremely stupid anyway;)

[ryan]

For those who post here and wanna stop the National Front from marching here in Aberdeen next month' date=' there's gonna be a protest outside the Town House on Broad Street this coming Monday, starting 1pm.

The protest has been called (by Aberdeen United Against Fascism) as the city council's licencing committee will be meeting Monday to decide as to whether to permit the NF march to go ahead or not.[/quote']

bah they should have been allowed to march (NF), what sort of free country is this. Had they been allowed to march people would have seen what fools they are. Unless they are blatently breaking laws I see no reason to stop them even if they are the NF.

[ryan]

We seek only to encourage others to take control of their own lives - to reject authority' date=' political control, to throw off their shackles and live as free individuals.[/quote']

So if someone wants to join the NF then thats ok, its their choice and you wont stop them?

[monkey]

you say it has no relevance to the discussion of activism so please tell me why you have involved yourself in the arguments below as well as the arguments that aren't about activism in this thread? and if continuously arguing about such subjects bothers you' date=' as it clearly seems to, then why involve yourself in those arguments in the tiresome fashion you do?

if its none of my business then you shouldn't mention things about yourself you don't want to talk about then should you?, its your problem mate, not mine [/quote']

Answering a question with a question. Very good. You still have not told me why it is so important to this discussion for you to know what I have done "to make the world a better place" and why I should tell you. Could you please tell me exactally why this is so important to this discussion please?

you were arguing the point about the voting process that various people like myself discussed' date=' i never realised discussing voting was being obsessed about it, my wrong

i don't think you're in any position to talk about talking about subjects obsessively anyway, you've been continuously talking about the National Front on not one but two threads have you not?

no-one said democracy was simply about voting, you're looking for arguments that don't exist and fighting with your own shadow [/quote']

Both you and Doc refered to voting as is it was itself democracy, and as if the two concepts could be used almost interchangably. I was suggesting this was a symplistic view of democracy and that a system of voting alone does not constitute democracy. This is an obvious point and I fail to see why you dont recognise this. It is also why I posted a definition of democracy. As for Obsessively posting about the National Front? If you actually counted the number of times I have posted in all the threads about the NF, you would see that you have posted fairly infrequently and have generally posted about issues that often arise out of the discussion. So this claim is frankly laughable.

they still need people to vote don't they?' date=' the people vote to put who they want in power don't they?, or are you saying that we have no involvement in the voting process at all now?

whichever way you look at it, the country needs a system in place for it to run and maintain itself in some form or another[/quote']

Again you seem to almost deliberately put words in my mouth and missunderstand what I have said. No where did I say that we have no involvement in the voting process. I challange you to show me where I said. I did not even imply that was the case. How you can even think I have suggested I have said this I have no idea. I have simply argued that democracy is FAR FAR MORE THAN SIMPLY VOTING!

i asked you to explain what it is you do and once again' date=' you skim past the point to try and dilly dally around the subject by arguing about nothing at all [/quote']

Again tell me why is it so important for you to know what I do?

i don't need to post any definitions because everyone has a different definition of what democracy is to them. please explain to me what i am so wrong in? did i post anything where i claimed i was right?

This is silly' date=' if everyone has a different definition of democracy how is a consensus ever possible? Obviously there must be some shared characteristics, norms and values. In any discussion of democracy you will obviously express your own understanding of the term through the views you express, therefore, it makes more sense tho make your understanding of the concept explicit. Hence when writing an essay you carefully define the concepts you use or refer to in order to make your reader fully aware of the argument your making.

i doubt any moderators here would allow the National Front or their sympathisers to post on here anyway so thats a pretty useless answer to that question. Publicity can be generate in positive or negative ways, the main aim is to provoke a reaction or a response from their actions and thats all those groups are concerned about, they want people to pay attention to them because no-one will ever take their brand of politics seriously.

the fact of the matter is that people like yourself have paid them so much attention already for a matter thats been resolved, this thread was about stopping the march and so it has been stopped, what more is there to talk about?

no, my point was that these threads were started so people could find ways to stop the march happening, it never happened - game over, end of story and goodnight Vienna, case closed yeah? cool, now get off your high horse.

It is clearly not the end of the issue as the National Front still exist and still wish to organise in Aberdeen. These threads were not started simply to stop the march but to stop the National Front marching, the opposition is to the NF and their views and goals not simply the NF marching on one particular day. This is what dictates the end of any discussion not, your subjective assessment of when we should stop discussing them.

Their main aim is not simply to provoke a reaction, despite what you seem to think. In fact their aim is, like all political organisations, to recruit new members and to disseminate their views, and through so doing get people to think about the world the way they do. You say no one will ever take their brand of politics seriously but this is also clearly not true as any history of the 20th Century would suggest.

As for trying to insult me by calling me tireless and irrelevant; grow the fuck up.

[Guest allsystemsfail]

So if someone wants to join the NF then thats ok' date=' its their choice and you wont stop them?[/quote']

Did I say that? No. The NF seek to deny others of their freedom, and so, must be stopped. I shall take action against them just as I take action against transnational corporations and others who seek to oppress.

[Guest allsystemsfail]

bah they should have been allowed to march (NF)' date=' what sort of free country is this. Had they been allowed to march people would have seen what fools they are. Unless they are blatently breaking laws I see no reason to stop them even if they are the NF.[/quote']

This, a free country? lol Free to say or take whatever action you wish so long as that does not threaten the established order.

[ryan]

Did I say that? No. The NF seek to deny others of their freedom' date=' and so, must be stopped. I shall take action against them just as I take action against transnational corporations and others who seek to oppress.[/quote']

So you wish to oppress the NF with your views and opinons...

[Guest allsystemsfail]

So you wish to oppress the NF with your views and opinons...

Oppression? I call it self defence. Check the link, then maybe you'll see where I'm coming from politically.

[Flossie T Sheep]

Answering a question with a question. Very good. You still have not told me why it is so important to this discussion for you to know what I have done "to make the world a better place" and why I should tell you. Could you please tell me exactally why this is so important to this discussion please?

i wanted to know what contributions you make that make our society and world a better place and contrast it with other people's contributions but once again' date=' you come across as a person who is pro-active in what they do and i was merely taking an interest as a fellow human being in what it is that you do

ASF has no problem passing on information and sharing his brand of politics and his own solutions and thoughts with others so why is it so difficult for yourself to do the same?

Both you and Doc refered to voting as is it was itself democracy, and as if the two concepts could be used almost interchangably. I was suggesting this was a symplistic view of democracy and that a system of voting alone does not constitute democracy. This is an obvious point and I fail to see why you dont recognise this. It is also why I posted a definition of democracy. As for Obsessively posting about the National Front? If you actually counted the number of times I have posted in all the threads about the NF, you would see that you have posted fairly infrequently and have generally posted about issues that often arise out of the discussion. So this claim is frankly laughable.

Again you seem to almost deliberately put words in my mouth and missunderstand what I have said. No where did I say that we have no involvement in the voting process. I challange you to show me where I said. I did not even imply that was the case. How you can even think I have suggested I have said this I have no idea. I have simply argued that democracy is FAR FAR MORE THAN SIMPLY VOTING!

Again tell me why is it so important for you to know what I do?

you talk like you have many solutions to all these political problems that dog our society and i was merely interested in you explaining your theories of how to tackle these problems regarding the voting process

you don't want to share those with me so there we have it, end of discussion, no need to pursue any more questions if the answers aren't gonna come is there?

This is silly, if everyone has a different definition of democracy how is a consensus ever possible? Obviously there must be some shared characteristics, norms and values. In any discussion of democracy you will obviously express your own understanding of the term through the views you express, therefore, it makes more sense tho make your understanding of the concept explicit. Hence when writing an essay you carefully define the concepts you use or refer to in order to make your reader fully aware of the argument your making.

well go write an essay about it, you clearly have the time on your hands to do it with the amount of tedious holier-than-thou garbage you seem to be spout on this thread over and over again, infrequently of course

if you got all the right answers then go put them into action instead of wasting your time arguing with lesser people like me who vote every 4 years

It is clearly not the end of the issue as the National Front still exist and still wish to organise in Aberdeen. These threads were not started simply to stop the march but to stop the National Front marching, the opposition is to the NF and their views and goals not simply the NF marching on one particular day. This is what dictates the end of any discussion not, your subjective assessment of when we should stop discussing them.

you clearly have too much time on your hands, some of us have wives and girlfriends to spend time with and have mates to go have a pint down the boozer with or just simply "have better things to do with our time" than sit around discussing this tiresome thread with tiresome people like yourself

the fact i have better things to do with my time will dictate the end of this attempt at a conversation i was having with you, lets just call that my subjective assessment of how boring and tiresome your discussions are right now

i don't think this thread is about discussing anything new at all, i think you're merely looking for arguments and that in itself is why you're so tiresome, you're just going over the same point over and over again, retreading old ground, this subject has been discussed in ten threads

i keep asking "what more is there to be said that hasn't already been said on this thread or any of the other threads?"

Their main aim is not simply to provoke a reaction, despite what you seem to think. In fact their aim is, like all political organisations, to recruit new members and to disseminate their views, and through so doing get people to think about the world the way they do. You say no one will ever take their brand of politics seriously but this is also clearly not true as any history of the 20th Century would suggest.

oh dear, you think people are so stupid as to believe a bunch of skinheads harping on about immigration and then go shave their own heads so they can join this motley crew of idiots and start World War 3 or the Fourth Reich or something like that?

bit paranoid innit?

oh sorry, put words in your mouth there again didn't i?

As for trying to insult me by calling me tireless and irrelevant; grow the fuck up.

is being called "tireless" what you would class as an insult these days?, is insomnia really that shameful? lol

have a look at the initial insult again, it was tiresome and irrelevant Doc labelled you. i merely concurred with the insult he wrote about you, or the observation he made about you should i say?

best wishes,

el flosso

[Frosty Jack]

"Ours is the worst form of democracy' date=' except for all the others."

Sorry if I've misquoted Mr Churchill but you get my drift.[/quote']

Close -

"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."

Although he also said -

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."

But my favourite is from Benjamin Franklin -

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner.

Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."

[monkey]

i wanted to know what contributions you make that make our society and world a better place and contrast it with other people's contributions but once again' date=' you come across as a person who is pro-active in what they do and i was merely taking an interest as a fellow human being in what it is that you do

ASF has no problem passing on information and sharing his brand of politics and his own solutions and thoughts with others so why is it so difficult for yourself to do the same?

you talk like you have many solutions to all these political problems that dog our society and i was merely interested in you explaining your theories of how to tackle these problems regarding the voting process

you don't want to share those with me so there we have it, end of discussion, no need to pursue any more questions if the answers aren't gonna come is there? [/quote']

So you want to hear my theories? But when I posted my theory as regards democracy you said it was unnecessary and I was lecturing you!?! Similarly when did suggested some of the things I had done you said you did not want my CV!?! o_O

As a result I am a little confused as to what you do want, and, call me cynical, I suspect this would simply turn into an argument about what formed a contribution to society and what would make society better. As Im sure you are aware each of these things are very much open to interpretation; what may be seen as beneficial by one group or individual may not be seen so by others.

well go write an essay about it' date=' you clearly have the time on your hands to do it with the amount of tedious holier-than-thou garbage you seem to be spout on this thread over and over again, infrequently of course

if you got all the right answers then go put them into action instead of wasting your time arguing with lesser people like me who vote every 4 years [/quote']

So above you say your interested in my opinions and now their just tedious holier-than-thou garbage. Im sorry but this seems to me a little schizophrenic. If you do want to provide a review if my opinions, like what I think about democracy for example, could you say why you actually think is wrong with them, rather than stupid and insulting comments like that one. But I guess as your not going to respond this doesnt matter.

you clearly have too much time on your hands' date=' some of us have wives and girlfriends to spend time with and have mates to go have a pint down the boozer with or just simply "have better things to do with our time" than sit around discussing this tiresome thread with tiresome people like yourself

the fact i have better things to do with my time will dictate the end of this attempt at a conversation i was having with you, lets just call that my subjective assessment of how boring and tiresome your discussions are right now

i don't think this thread is about discussing anything new at all, i think you're merely looking for arguments and that in itself is why you're so tiresome, you're just going over the same point over and over again, retreading old ground, this subject has been discussed in ten threads

i keep asking "what more is there to be said that hasn't already been said on this thread or any of the other threads?" [/quote']

Well you must have some time on your hands to keep responding! All though I do like the fact you seem to suggest that, because you dont agree with me, It is unlikely I have a wife or girlfriend or mates or at least ones I see anyway!!! Do I have to tell you what is wrong with this? If you cant argue with out adopting childish retorts then why bother? We are (or were) having a discussion, why do you feel the need to make it personal or is this the only way you can respond?

oh dear' date=' you think people are so stupid as to believe a bunch of skinheads harping on about immigration and then go shave their own heads so they can join this motley crew of idiots and start World War 3 or the Fourth Reich or something like that?

bit paranoid innit?

oh sorry, put words in your mouth there again didn't i? [/quote']

Well here you seem to be suggesting that the National Front and similar groups, are not a threat, so if they are not a threat, why did you maintain that stopping the march was playing into their hands [an opinion I disagree with and have done elsewhere and one which you still have not explained]? Surely if they were not a threat this would not matter at all? Again there seems to be some inconsistency in the arguments you post... But I guess as your not going to respond, I will just have to guess at the reason for this.

is being called "tireless" what you would class as an insult these days?' date=' is insomnia really that shameful? lol

have a look at the initial insult again, it was tiresome and irrelevant Doc labelled you. i merely concurred with the insult he wrote about you, or the observation he made about you should i say?

best wishes,

el flosso [/quote']

Well if Im tireless and irrelevant, then I guess you are someone who posts contradictory opinions, and posts daft (and amusing ) personal comments rather than back these up with any kind of constructive argument, and then refuses to take part any more. But then as youre not going to respond I will never know if this is an accurate reflection. Oh well

[Flossie T Sheep]

So you want to hear my theories? But when I posted my theory as regards democracy you said it was unnecessary and I was lecturing you!?! Similarly when did suggested some of the things I had done you said you did not want my CV!?! o_O

You said this -

"As for your question regarding what difference I have made for the better: Better is a relative concept' date=' and I am not a political activist as I understand the word or indeed as some here seem to use it, I have a degree in politics, and am currently finishing a post grad looking at the role of information in political decision-making. I have also worked for an MP and have been involved in local government initiatives to improve participation. That is ACTUAL participation as I would understand it: getting communities to actively participate in the decision-making process rather than simply vote every 4 years. Something to be that is fundamentally necessary in any supposedly democratic society"

and i responded with this -

"i never asked for your CV or any of your dictionary definitions, i asked you to explain in detail what things you've done that makes our society better, i want you to explain what these endeavours you've merely mentioned above involve and stop skimming over the points.

its all very well helping design a process that involves people in the decision-making process but ultimately it comes down to people's own freedom of choice as to who they cast their vote with, besides i thought you abhorred voting so why are you helping with the voting process anyway? and for the record, isn't helping people with making their decisions as to who they vote for taking people's democratic right to vote for whoever they want to vote for a bit of a flawed and fruitless process?, its like saying "here, i think you need a hand or a little push to who i think you should vote for"

to which you said -

"You say you never asked for my CV but asked what I had done that makes our society better. It is pointless to post what I think I have done to make society better because 1. As I have already told you better is wholly subjective concept, 2. It has no relevance to a discussion of activism (and if it does please tell me what relevance it has), 3. We will just end up arguing over whether particular activities do or do not make society better, and 4. Its is quite simply none of your business"

so in short, you were the one not prepared to talk about what you had done as it would have apparently no relevance to this discussion, we would've ended up arguing about it and it was quite simply none of my business.

if thats the case then there's no point whining about me asking you to talk about it then completely contradicting your own argument in a bundle of confusion is there?

As a result I am a little confused as to what you do want, and, call me cynical, I suspect this would simply turn into an argument about what formed a contribution to society and what would make society better. As Im sure you are aware each of these things are very much open to interpretation; what may be seen as beneficial by one group or individual may not be seen so by others.

is that why you've interpreted so many posts by other people the wrong way then?

call me cynical but you seem to tar everyone who doesn't think like you with the brush marked "idiot", is name-calling beneficial to you as an individual then?

you complain about me name-calling yet you seem to resort to petty insults yourself when Doc and soundian never saw things your way, now you're acting the same way with myself

So above you say your interested in my opinions and now their just tedious holier-than-thou garbage. Im sorry but this seems to me a little schizophrenic. If you do want to provide a review if my opinions, like what I think about democracy for example, could you say why you actually think is wrong with them, rather than stupid and insulting comments like that one. But I guess as your not going to respond this doesnt matter.

what is there to comment about? you said they're open to interpretation and different to every individual, i am interested in reading your opinions but what would it matter what i said when my definition would be different to your's and you've also said you don't want to talk about it because we'd only argue about it

schizophrenic?, you seem to think you're more of an authority on the subject because you admitted to having a degree in politics and you call people idiots for voting

but

the thing that beguiles me is for one person like yourself who seems to be so against voting and i believe you admitted to not voting either, you seem to complain and whine so much about something with which you choose on your own volition not to be part of but yet you also say that you're trying to improve the initiatives of the voting process by helping people with the decision-making process

you also apparently seem to accuse myself and Doc of thinking voting itself is a "democracy", which is something you yourself has plucked out of air and ran with through your latest posts on this thread

i don't really know where these comments about schizophrenia come from but i guess it takes one to know one, takes one to know themselves

Well you must have some time on your hands to keep responding! All though I do like the fact you seem to suggest that, because you dont agree with me, It is unlikely I have a wife or girlfriend or mates or at least ones I see anyway!!! Do I have to tell you what is wrong with this? If you cant argue with out adopting childish retorts then why bother? We are (or were) having a discussion, why do you feel the need to make it personal or is this the only way you can respond?

you said this to Doc -

"I resorted to name calling as you put it because you haven't once been capable of answering any of the responses I have posted to the, frankly stupid, things you keep writing"

you said this to soundian -

"If your quite happy to vote for a political party without actually having a grasp of that partys policies then you are just an idiot"

is there any point discussing anything with you when you think the people who disagree with you or anything you've said merely write stupid things and are idiots in your eyes?

Well here you seem to be suggesting that the National Front and similar groups, are not a threat, so if they are not a threat, why did you maintain that stopping the march was playing into their hands [an opinion I disagree with and have done elsewhere and one which you still have not explained]? Surely if they were not a threat this would not matter at all? Again there seems to be some inconsistency in the arguments you post... But I guess as your not going to respond, I will just have to guess at the reason for this

i think you discredit people with being stupid and seem to think if the march happened then it would've turned people into Nazis, i think people are smarter than that and can make their own choices about these subjects without people like yourself trying to tell them what you think they should do

Well if Im tireless and irrelevant, then I guess you are someone who posts contradictory opinions, and posts daft (and amusing ) personal comments rather than back these up with any kind of constructive argument, and then refuses to take part any more. But then as youre not going to respond I will never know if this is an accurate reflection. Oh well

i don't think constructive arguments are in your vocabulary as far as i can see, not with us all being idiots and posting up stupid laughable opinions that lesser people like myself who vote every four years;)

so on that note, here endeth talking to the monkey, i have said all i need to say and i will leave you to interpret my daft, laughable, contradictory and deconstructive arguments in whichever way you see fit to suit your own ego and satisfy your own amusement