Guest allsystemsfail Posted October 30, 2004 Report Share Posted October 30, 2004 I do not. I also know many who do incredible work and not just in this country. I have friends who work for amnesty and others in greenpeace.I am merely disgusted by those who are able to work but choose no to' date=' thereby diverting resources away from the sections of society who genuinely need help and support. Of course, this government makes it easy for them to do it.[/quote']Then why, if you do not believe it so, did you make the point at all - that many activists did not work?And regarding benefits - a large portion of the funds set aside for benefits lies unclaimed. So denying money to those who genuinely need help? Not at all.If you wanna continue this discussion, then please do so via pm. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkey Posted October 30, 2004 Report Share Posted October 30, 2004 Let's look at activism as an active role in society and making a difference in the world shall we?Those who bother to vote make a difference. Those who work and pay taxes make a difference. Everyone who recycles makes a difference. Everyone who walks instead of taking the car makes a difference. Everyone who buys fair trade goods makes a difference. Everyone who turns their heating down by two degrees makes a diference. Giving to charity makes a difference. Living a decent life by not sponging off the state or robbing people or getting involved in violence makes a difference.If you have a "political activist" who doesn't work or contribute to society by paying taxes' date=' and a great many of them are like this, but simply protests all the time, waving little banners and demonstrating at the expense of every taxpayer,then he is simply a parasite who makes no difference whatsoever.If you have an activist who openly displays his contempt for people who's interest in politics begins and ends at exercising their democratic rights and contributing to the society they live in, then this activist is simply a cunt who has missed the point.All political animals are the servants of the people not the other way around. You engage in politics by our, the peoples' leave.But don't you dare say that non politcal people don't make a difference, because it's there that the difference begins. Not with self important, look at me activists.[/quote']Docs definition of activism:Anyone who does anything at all ever makes a difference and there for contributes to society and is therefore politically active. Except of course people (to paraphrase) who simply protest all the time, dont work or pay taxes and demonstrate at the expense of taxpayers and naturally make no difference whatsoever. Who are these people exactly? You clearly have some groups in mind, some examples please?Oh and for the record Doc I dont hold people who simply vote in contempt, but I do think that any system in which people simply vote to make their views known is not a democracy at all. Democracy is not about simply voting, and if you honestly think it is then you really havent thought about it very much. Nice half veiled attempt to call me a cunt though... All political animals are the servants of the people? This is simply naive. Some of those involved in politics are servants of the people in the sense that they are constitutionally recognised as representing their constituents. Not all of those involved in politics are elected to serve the people; many represent their own interests, party interests, or the interests of a narrow section of society such as farmers or the elderly. But I would have thought this was all fucking obvious ...I engage in politics by your leave? Why how noble of you. Thank you Doc for letting me get involved in politics. Thank you very much.But don't you dare say that non politcal people don't make a difference, because it's there that the difference begins.I wanted to quote that sentence again just because its so fucking stupid and ill thought out. Who are these non political people? What precisely is this difference where does the difference begin how do you measure this difference ? I think youre trying to use it to say social responsibility but you could mean anything... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted October 30, 2004 Report Share Posted October 30, 2004 Docs definition of activism:Anyone who does anything at all ever makes a difference and there for contributes to society and is therefore politically active. Except of course people (to paraphrase) who simply protest all the time' date=' dont work or pay taxes and demonstrate at the expense of taxpayers and naturally make no difference whatsoever. Who are these people exactly? You clearly have some groups in mind, some examples please?Oh and for the record Doc I dont hold people who simply vote in contempt, but I do think that [b']any system in which people simply vote to make their views known is not a democracy at all. Democracy is not about simply voting, and if you honestly think it is then you really havent thought about it very much. Nice half veiled attempt to call me a cunt though... All political animals are the servants of the people? This is simply naive. Some of those involved in politics are servants of the people in the sense that they are constitutionally recognised as representing their constituents. Not all of those involved in politics are elected to serve the people; many represent their own interests, party interests, or the interests of a narrow section of society such as farmers or the elderly. But I would have thought this was all fucking obvious ...I engage in politics by your leave? Why how noble of you. Thank you Doc for letting me get involved in politics. Thank you very much.But don't you dare say that non politcal people don't make a difference, because it's there that the difference begins.I wanted to quote that sentence again just because its so fucking stupid and ill thought out. Who are these non political people? What precisely is this difference where does the difference begin how do you measure this difference ? I think youre trying to use it to say social responsibility but you could mean anything...I wasn't calling you a cunt. I don't know you. If you're a benefits scrounger then you are a cunt however. I don't need to veil it.As for the rest of it, you plainly understand nothing and would prefer to believe you live in some sort of orwellian nightmare. Wouldn't you rather have some fun and maybe get some joy out of life instead of wringing your hands and whining as if that's some sort of placebo for a social conscience. Talk to All systems fail. He's misguided in some ways but he does have a social conscience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest allsystemsfail Posted October 30, 2004 Report Share Posted October 30, 2004 As for the rest of it' date=' you plainly understand nothing and would prefer to believe you live in some sort of orwellian nightmare. Wouldn't you rather have some fun and maybe get some joy out of life instead of wringing your hands and whining as if that's some sort of placebo for a social conscience. Talk to All systems fail. He's misguided in some ways but he does have a social conscience.[/quote']Misduided? You believe so only because you disagree. It is not a point of fact.And by the way, I asked if you'd like to continue this discussion to do so via pm. I sent another one to you yesterday evening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flossie T Sheep Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Misduided? You believe so only because you disagree. It is not a point of fact.i think another point of fact here is this "i am right and you are wrong" attitude all your systems never fail to confirm.hope you liked the little play on your name there, i know i did Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jake Wifebeater Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 I wasn't calling you a cunt. I don't know you. If you're a benefits scrounger then you are a cunt however. I don't need to veil it.A bit of clarification here, if you could. How do you define scrounger? Does this apply to everyone who claims, or attempts to claim, benefits? We spoke elsewhere about how my partner is being utterly shat on by the system, I hope you're not including her in your definition! I don't think you are, mind you.I'm almost tempted to say "well done" to those who actually qualify for benefits, the rigmarole they put you through when you try to claim........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 A bit of clarification here' date=' if you could. How do you define scrounger? Does this apply to everyone who claims, or attempts to claim, benefits? We spoke elsewhere about how my partner is being utterly shat on by the system, I hope you're not including her in your definition! I don't think you are, mind you.I'm almost tempted to say "well done" to those who actually qualify for benefits, the rigmarole they put you through when you try to claim...........[/quote']Not at all. I think your partner has been shoddily treated.Of course there are people who plainly need support and most of them deserve it. I'm thinking more of the guy that lives near me, who claims all the benefits in the world, income support, council tax rebates, disability allowance (bad back, nudge nudge) but still manages to work as a painter and decorator, cash in hand, no tax, no NI, guvnor.He's the reason why you and your girlfriend have to jump through hoops to get anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkey Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 I wasn't calling you a cunt. I don't know you. If you're a benefits scrounger then you are a cunt however. I don't need to veil it.As for the rest of it' date=' you plainly understand nothing and would prefer to believe you live in some sort of orwellian nightmare. Wouldn't you rather have some fun and maybe get some joy out of life instead of wringing your hands and whining as if that's some sort of placebo for a social conscience. Talk to All systems fail. He's misguided in some ways but he does have a social conscience.[/quote']So all benefits scroungers are cunts, ok. Does that include the State Pension which is also a benefit? Does that include the physically or mentally disabled who are often on Incapacity Benefit? Or are you again perhaps writing without thinking out your argument first? Because anyone on benefit must be a scrounger its the only possible explanation for them being on benefit! Yet again you responded to my post without actually responding to any of the points I made. I see as I plainly understand nothing, would you perhaps explain to me where my previous explanation was inaccurate and where it is I suggested that we live in some Orwellian nightmare?As for suggesting I don't have a social conscience your the one who said that all people on benefit are cunts! *laughter* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tv tanned Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Of course there are people who plainly need support and most of them deserve it. I'm thinking more of the guy that lives near me' date=' who claims all the benefits in the world, income support, council tax rebates, disability allowance (bad back, nudge nudge) but still manages to work as a painter and decorator, cash in hand, no tax, no NI, guvnor.[/quote']I hope, as a good responsible citizen, you will have taken the opportunity to report this benefit fraud to the relevant authorities, who will duly investigate the gentleman in question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundian Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 So all benefits scroungers are cunts' date=' ok. Does that include the State Pension which is also a benefit? Does that include the physically or mentally disabled who are often on Incapacity Benefit? Or are you again perhaps writing without thinking out your argument first? Because anyone on benefit must be a scrounger its the only possible explanation for them being on benefit! [/quote'] I am merely disgusted by those who are able to work but choose not to That should answer that question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Tristen Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Let's look at activism as an active role in society and making a difference in the world shall we?Those who bother to vote make a difference. Those who work and pay taxes make a difference. Everyone who recycles makes a difference. Everyone who walks instead of taking the car makes a difference. Everyone who buys fair trade goods makes a difference. Everyone who turns their heating down by two degrees makes a diference. Giving to charity makes a difference. Living a decent life by not sponging off the state or robbing people or getting involved in violence makes a difference.If you have a "political activist" who doesn't work or contribute to society by paying taxes' date=' and a great many of them are like this, but simply protests all the time, waving little banners and demonstrating at the expense of every taxpayer,then he is simply a parasite who makes no difference whatsoever.If you have an activist who openly displays his contempt for people who's interest in politics begins and ends at exercising their democratic rights and contributing to the society they live in, then this activist is simply a cunt who has missed the point.All political animals are the servants of the people not the other way around. You engage in politics by our, the peoples' leave.But don't you dare say that non politcal people don't make a difference, because it's there that the difference begins. Not with self important, look at me activists.[/quote'] is all I have to say.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkey Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 is all I have to say....All you have to say is to quote someone else's comments about activism that don't even make sense. Well done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 So all benefits scroungers are cunts' date=' ok. Does that include the State Pension which is also a benefit? Does that include the physically or mentally disabled who are often on Incapacity Benefit? Or are you again perhaps writing without thinking out your argument first? Because anyone on benefit must be a scrounger its the only possible explanation for them being on benefit! Yet again you responded to my post without actually responding to any of the points I made. I see as I plainly understand nothing, would you perhaps explain to me where my previous explanation was inaccurate and where it is I suggested that we live in some Orwellian nightmare?As for suggesting I don't have a social conscience [i']your the one who said that all people on benefit are cunts! *laughter*Do try not to be a complete idiot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 I hope' date=' as a good responsible citizen, you will have taken the opportunity to report this benefit fraud to the relevant authorities, who will duly investigate the gentleman in question.[/quote']Someone already has. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkey Posted November 2, 2004 Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 Do try not to be a complete idiot.So you have given up on trying to defend your apparent bigotry? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted November 2, 2004 Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 So you have given up on trying to defend your apparent bigotry?Ah, I see you're resorting to the old demonise what you cannot fight or understand or compete on an intelectual level with tactic, beloved of the extreme left and right.I accept your surrender, shown by your resorting to ridiculous name calling.Now fuck off and go back to your game boy, you riscible clown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flossie T Sheep Posted November 2, 2004 Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 Anyone who does anything at all ever makes a difference and there for contributes to society and is therefore politically active. I wanted to quote that sentence again just because its so fucking stupid and ill thought out. Who are these non political people? What precisely is this difference where does the difference begin how do you measure this difference ? I think youre trying to use it to say social responsibility but you could mean anything...surely you would know what difference "political activists" and what difference "non-political people" make?you speak so much about how much difference people like yourself make but have yet to actually clarify what difference your endeavours have made to change our society for the better;)its all very well talking about but what have you actually done as a person who claims to be as politically active as yourself to change anything?please explain to us all so we can finally lay this NF shite thread to rest once and for all, you know i have noticed this isn't the only thread on this same forum thats retread the same ground over and over and over again, you've all already discussed this same issue fucking loads of times on about ten seperate threads, what more is there to say about this issue now that hasn't already been said?like i said on the other NF-related thread on this forum, you seem to be giving the NF easy publicity by talking about this subject with such painstaking depth and making it last for about 20 pages!the irony in that itself must make that lot laugh a hell of a lot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Milner Posted November 2, 2004 Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 surely you would know what difference "political activists" and what difference "non-political people" make?you speak so much about how much difference people like yourself make but have yet to actually clarify what difference your endeavours have made to change our society for the better;)its all very well talking about but what have you actually done as a person who claims to be as politically active as yourself to change anything?please explain to us all so we can finally lay this NF shite thread to rest once and for all' date=' you know i have noticed this isn't the only thread on this same forum thats retread the same ground over and over and over again, you've all already discussed this same issue fucking loads of times on about ten seperate threads, what more is there to say about this issue now that hasn't already been said?like i said on the other NF-related thread on this forum, you seem to be giving the NF easy publicity by talking about this subject with such painstaking depth and making it last for about 20 pages!the irony in that itself must make that lot laugh a hell of a lot[/quote']Fucking right give it up guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkey Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 Ah' date=' I see you're resorting to the old demonise what you cannot fight or understand or compete on an intelectual level with tactic, beloved of the extreme left and right.I accept your surrender, shown by your resorting to ridiculous name calling.Now fuck off and go back to your game boy, you riscible clown.[/quote']Oh so I demonise you because your more intelligent than me do I?Well prove then this intelligence of yours and tell me how you think democracy works when all people do is vote.I resorted to name calling as you put it because you haven't once been capable of answering any of the responses I have posted to the, frankly stupid, things you keep writing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 Oh so I demonise you because your more intelligent than me do I?Well prove then this intelligence of yours and tell me how you think democracy works when all people do is vote.I resorted to name calling as you put it because you haven't once been capable of answering any of the responses I have posted to the' date=' frankly stupid, things you keep writing.[/quote']You have become tiresome and irrelevant now.Here endeth the talking to the monkey. Any organ grinders out there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkey Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 surely you would know what difference "political activists" and what difference "non-political people" make?you speak so much about how much difference people like yourself make but have yet to actually clarify what difference your endeavours have made to change our society for the better;)its all very well talking about but what have you actually done as a person who claims to be as politically active as yourself to change anything?please explain to us all so we can finally lay this NF shite thread to rest once and for all' date=' you know i have noticed this isn't the only thread on this same forum thats retread the same ground over and over and over again, you've all already discussed this same issue fucking loads of times on about ten seperate threads, what more is there to say about this issue now that hasn't already been said?like i said on the other NF-related thread on this forum, you seem to be giving the NF easy publicity by talking about this subject with such painstaking depth and making it last for about 20 pages!the irony in that itself must make that lot laugh a hell of a lot[/quote']I have already suggested the difference between, what you seem to think of political activists, that is: those that actually involve them selves in the decisions about the societies they live in and those who simply vote, in several previous posts.As for your question regarding what difference I have made for the better: Better is a relative concept, and I am not a political activist as I understand the word or indeed as some here seem to use it, I have a degree in politics, and am currently finishing a post grad looking at the role of information in political decision-making. I have also worked for an MP and have been involved in local government initiatives to improve participation. That is ACTUAL participation as I would understand it: getting communities to actively participate in the decision-making process rather than simply vote every 4 years. Something to be that is fundamentally necessary in any supposedly democratic society. Democracy is not a political system or a way of choosing governments it is an ideal type something governments, social institutions and political parties strive for rather than something that actually exists. Political systems can be more or less representative and even electoral systems can be highly unrepresentative of the needs and interests of those supposedly represented by the system. This is why it is so important to develop a political system that is accessible an in which communities are involved at every stage of the political process and not just once every four years. Seems to me if you dont like this discussion, or think it has already occurred elsewhere then you can quite easily not read it or not post on it and let us get on with it.As for your point about NF related publicity. It seems to suggest that we should not talk about them; will they go away if we dont talk about them? Should we ration how frequently we post about them? Of course not. They should have all the exposure we can give them. We should expose them as the racist, homophobic, bigoted thugs they are. The more discussion of their tactics and policies, the better as the more enlightened we are to their ways in order to combat them. peacefully of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkey Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 You have become tiresome and irrelevant now.Here endeth the talking to the monkey. Any organ grinders out there?Whatever. Seems to me that, whatever the disagreement, if you are going to post opinions on a public forum you should be prepared to defend those opinions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flossie T Sheep Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 As for your question regarding what difference I have made for the better: Better is a relative concept, and I am not a political activist as I understand the word or indeed as some here seem to use it, I have a degree in politics, and am currently finishing a post grad looking at the role of information in political decision-making. I have also worked for an MP and have been involved in local government initiatives to improve participation. That is ACTUAL participation as I would understand it: getting communities to actively participate in the decision-making process rather than simply vote every 4 years. Something to be that is fundamentally necessary in any supposedly democratic society. i never asked for your CV or any of your dictionary definitions, i asked you to explain in detail what things you've done that makes our society better, i want you to explain what these endeavours you've merely mentioned above involve and stop skimming over the points.its all very well helping design a process that involves people in the decision-making process but ultimately it comes down to people's own freedom of choice as to who they cast their vote with, besides i thought you abhorred voting so why are you helping with the voting process anyway? and for the record, isn't helping people with making their decisions as to who they vote for taking people's democratic right to vote for whoever they want to vote for a bit of a flawed and fruitless process?, its like saying "here, i think you need a hand or a little push to who i think you should vote for"Democracy is not a political system or a way of choosing governments it is an ideal type something governments, social institutions and political parties strive for rather than something that actually exists. Political systems can be more or less representative and even electoral systems can be highly unrepresentative of the needs and interests of those supposedly represented by the system. This is why it is so important to develop a political system that is accessible an in which communities are involved at every stage of the political process and not just once every four years. thats your own definition of democracy as how you perceive it to be, once again you're preaching and showing this "i'm right and you're wrong" attitude that i find extremely suspicious and a bit creepySeems to me if you dont like this discussion, or think it has already occurred elsewhere then you can quite easily not read it or not post on it and let us get on with it.i will involve myself in any discussion i see fit to involve myself in, don't dictate to me what i can and can't talk about, i just find it odd that you can seem to think you're a higher authority than anyone else when it comes to such discussions because you think that involving yourself with activist groups makes you more right or correct than anyone else on a subject of interest such as the National Front.As for your point about NF related publicity. It seems to suggest that we should not talk about them; will they go away if we dont talk about them? Should we ration how frequently we post about them? Of course not. They should have all the exposure we can give them. We should expose them as the racist, homophobic, bigoted thugs they are. The more discussion of their tactics and policies, the better as the more enlightened we are to their ways in order to combat them. peacefully of course.you don't think they've been exposed as "racist, homophobic, bigoted thugs" then?, thats a bit like exposing the Pope as being Catholic innit? and you don't think we don't know all about their policies, doctrines and tactics either? the main point i raised is that they were seeking to garner as much publicity and outrage from their endeavours to march in Aberdeen and judging by the amount of threads written about the NF, i think they succeeded in their efforts. well done, you played straight into their hands mate.i think the problem you got now is that you're trying to pick fights and find arguments in not very much in particular now and its becoming increasingly tiresome and boring, i think you should just drop it, as far as i can see the whole point of this thread was to discuss how to stop the march, and thus it was stopped, what more is there to talk about now?there's always going to be fascism or such fundamentalist extremist elements in the world no matter how much shouting and placard-waving and protests you involve yourself in, you're fighting a losing battle to try and stop it and besides why would you seek to put these factions underground anyway?, isn't it better to keep them in sight so you can identify who they are to keep your eye on them in case they cause trouble and violence against the people they hate?you got to think with your brain instead of your heart where these things are concerned man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 The problem with people involved in politics is that they consider all other people as mindless sheep, only fit to cast a vote to place ther chosen ones in power so that they can interfere increasingly in our lives. This arrogance is their weakness, as they consistently underestimate the power of public opinion as they become more and more isolated from they people they claim to represent, until they get kicked out on their overpaid arses by the very votes that apparachiks like monkey claim to despise. Those whom the gods despise they first make mad. Note how exasperated monkey gets when i won't play his game and allow him to expound his 19th century political claptrap thus showing how superior he is to us mere mortals. How galling to be continually out maneuvered by those "neanderthal NF thugs" whom he feels morally and intellectually superior to and by me who despises politicians and their familiars as the bloodsucking control freaks they really are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flossie T Sheep Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 The problem with people involved in politics is that they consider all other people as mindless sheep' date=' only fit to cast a vote to place ther chosen ones in power so that they can interfere increasingly in our lives. This arrogance is their weakness, as they consistently underestimate the power of public opinion as they become more and more isolated from they people they claim to represent, until they get kicked out on their overpaid arses by the very votes that apparachiks like monkey claim to despise. Those whom the gods despise they first make mad. Note how exasperated monkey gets when i won't play his game and allow him to expound his 19th century political claptrap thus showing how superior he is to us mere mortals. How galling to be continually out maneuvered by those "neanderthal NF thugs" whom he feels morally and intellectually superior to and by me who despises politicians and their familiars as the bloodsucking control freaks they really are.[/quote']i just think his and ASF's failures to see that people are individuals and don't need help to make their own choices as to who they should vote for or what political actions they should take based upon their own opinions and thoughts is particularly suspicious and their "i am right and you are wrong" method of preaching their politics to obviously lesser mortals like myself and yourself is something i won't tolerate, i don't mind people having opinions but trying to inflict them upon others is wrong, that authoritarian attitude is distasteful and doesn't leave room for alternative viewpoints on societyi don't agree with anything the NF do or say nor do i agree with any group threatening the livelihoods of other people which is why i think they ought to be stopped because no group that threatens people with violence or death should be tolerated, i don't mind them having an opinion about politics but not at the expense of people's basic right to live Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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