The Milner Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 Nah American Idiot was a piece of genius. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soda Jerk Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 U mad son? Pure garbage record.Fair enough if you like it, but genius? Come on now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3CR816 Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 I've never heard American Idiot, but I think we can all agree the holographic posters and rubber bracelets it inspired (available from all good branches of Clinton's Cards) are a work of subversive, anti-authoritarian beauty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Milner Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 I never liked it at first, but that was when i was listening to tracks and not the album, the first time i sat down and listened to it like they wanted fans too i understood it and i still think its a work of genius, one on hand for a band as simple as Green Day to come out with that album i find incredible, and secondly, i think they are the only band in out there who could have written that album as daft as that sounds. Plus i watched them play the entire album live for some MTV thing and it was incredible, it really is a rock orchestra album, not just three guys thrashing out pop punk for 39 minutes. I've watched videos of them making it and stuff and just coming from my point of view from being in bands who tried something similar to Green Day to them coming out with that album is genius for me, no other word for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soda Jerk Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 I couldn't disagree more. Lyrically, it's really toss. The worst thing they've written. The "long" songs on there feel like they last forever, even though they're not really long songs, rather than just short songs stitched together, like a crappier version of NOFX's 'The Decline'. The title track is especially awful. It also rips off a Dillinger Four riff. That always bugs me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Milner Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 Part of the beauty of music, we all find our own genius in things others dont I think as Green Day, American Idiot is the pinnacle of their work, a combination of everything they tried over the many years brought into one big rock story. They became more than just a 3 piece punk band when they wrote that, which i personally love, there is only so far 3 people can take power chords and overdrive, they saw that and took what they had to a new level altogether, shame the album after it was a complete write off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stroopy121 Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 21st Century was shit for all the same reasons American Idiot is shit. Soda hit the nail on the head when he described it as a shitty version of The Decline. Generally speaking I get bored if a song lasts more than 3 minutes unless it's something fairly interesting but all 20something minutes of the Decline are just pure genius.Saying Green Day are the only act who could've written AI or 21CB is garbage, NOFX did it (much better) years previously - and while the quality of the records may be a matter of personal opinion, you can't argue that NOFX did it years prior to them. "Genius" is a hugely inappropriate description of the record, no matter how much you like it.xx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3CR816 Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 I'm not huge on Green Day, but I did quite like their side-project 'The Network'. It's like a Devo album for when you're not in the mood for Devo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soda Jerk Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 I just can't stand the context of it. Everything about it. Punk rock took a fashionable turn of involving mickey mouse politics during Bush Jr's presidential terms. A bunch of bands popped up and were all like "hey guyz, we're all political now" after years of writing songs about being grounded and girls. From the lyrics themselves, you can tell they aren't very politically driven people just from how predictably simplistic it all was, and it just seemed to be like a psuedo-rebellious gimmick to sell records to psuedo-angry kids more than anything. To me, it's such an utterly fake record. I can't abide it for many reasons. Insomniac tosses all over it. Great songs. No fannying about. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stroopy121 Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 Yeah - Green Day (et al) seem to have a lot less to say politically since Bush vanished.xx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Milner Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 Hey we all have our own opinions on it, if i think my fav album by one of my fav bands comes under genius then i dont think its inappropriate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stroopy121 Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 Of course it is, because words mean things.If I described myself as a genius for working out that Earth's gravity is applying a force on all objects within it's atmosphere, I'd be wrong too.xx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Milner Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 So if someone says for example Pink Floyd's The Pulse is genius to someone who hates the Pulse, does that make them wrong? Or if someone says thrash band x are genius at what they do, are they wrong because i hate thrash music?Dont be silly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flights Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 So if someone says for example Pink Floyd's The Pulse is genius to someone who hates the Pulse, does that make them wrong? Or if someone says thrash band x are genius at what they do, are they wrong because i hate thrash music?Dont be silly. There can be no ill words spoken about The Pulse. It's the rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soda Jerk Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 "Genius" isn't a synonym for "that sounds good to my lugs". Something that is genius should be something completely earth moving and revolutionary. Green Day deciding they are 'totez political' and writing long songs by putting loads of short songs together isn't genius. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Milner Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 well we can argue the semantics all you want, but i hear that album and i think of it as revolutionary for that band, something completely different from the rest of their work, to me it was a work of genius from that band, you guys are welcome to your own opinion on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soda Jerk Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 Fair enough. In my opinion, I can't think of any punk rock records that can be considered genius, since it is such a raw and simplistic art form. That's not a bad thing, but there's not many punk rock records that really shook the world for being so innovative. Perhaps Zen Arcade by Husker Du comes close, as it is practically a mind-bending progressive rock concept album wrapped up in a gravelly punk rock exterior. It was a monumental step forward for punk rock at the time, though with todays production on records, it probably wouldn't get given the time of day by a new listener. It really does sound like shit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stroopy121 Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 A "genius" record is one that moves the goal posts in some significant way. A band doing one thing, then changing their minds and doing something else is not genius. A band inventing something completely new and different in a way that is innovative and different is genius.Green Day going from 3-chord pop-punk to deciding "I want to do exactly what Alice Cooper has been doing for years now" is a radical change in direction and to some listeners it was a welcome one but that's all it was. It was a record with a different sound to their old stuff.xx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Milner Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 Fair enough. In my opinion, I can't think of any punk rock records that can be considered genius, since it is such a raw and simplistic art form. That's not a bad thing, but there's not many punk rock records that really shook the world for being so innovative. Perhaps Zen Arcade by Husker Du comes close, as it is practically a mind-bending progressive rock concept album wrapped up in a gravelly punk rock exterior. It was a monumental step forward for punk rock at the time, though with todays production on records, it probably wouldn't get given the time of day by a new listener. It really does sound like shit.Like i say its the beauty of music, we all find our own genius's in our own way. It is all subjective at the end of the day.It all depends what you like, if your into Britany Spears your never going to think of Zen Arcade as genius, even if it is brilliant ( i havent heard it so i dont have an opinion) same goes for if your into Tool, your never going to think of pop punk as anything more than shite, or if your Rune everything else ever made by anyone is shite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Milner Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 A "genius" record is one that moves the goal posts in some significant way. A band doing one thing, then changing their minds and doing something else is not genius. A band inventing something completely new and different in a way that is innovative and different is genius.Green Day going from 3-chord pop-punk to deciding "I want to do exactly what Alice Cooper has been doing for years now" is a radical change in direction and to some listeners it was a welcome one but that's all it was. It was a record with a different sound to their old stuff.xxAmerican Idiot moved the goalposts in a significant way for Green Day, as Soda said earlier, Dookie/Insomniac/Nimrod/Warning were all albums of 3 minutes no fucking around songs. This was something different to that. I've watched a few videos on Green Day recording and most of their albums were recorded very quickly compared to a lot of bands, no messing around no massive production, again American Idiot was very different. It was a huge project as much as an album. At the end of the day they are always going to be Green Day, always going to sound a certain way, AI was never going to be a complete polar in terms of sound, but i think thats what makes it so special.But we have de-railed enough i think Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stroopy121 Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 I see what you're saying but I suppose we're using different definitions of the term "genius". I disagree because while they changed relative to themselves, they didn't do anything innovative other than change their own direction. Moving the goalposts isn't the same as redefining yourself.By my definition the goalposts are in place for EVERYONE, not just your own band. It's fair to say that compared to Nimrod, AI was genius, but I disagree with using the general "it's a genius" record without the qualifier "comparatively" in there.I suppose so many adjectives which are inherantly objective can be subjectively viewed. Describing "Basket Case" as a fast song is fine if you compare it to When I Come Around or Longview, but compare it to Somewhere Back in Time (or any power metal or similar) and it's slow as a motherfucker.xx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3CR816 Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 Like i say its the beauty of music, we all find our own genius's in our own way. It is all subjective at the end of the day.It all depends what you like, if your into Britany Spears your never going to think of Zen Arcade as genius, even if it is brilliant ( i havent heard it so i dont have an opinion) same goes for if your into Tool, your never going to think of pop punk as anything more than shite, or if your Rune everything else ever made by anyone is shite.The problem with this line of reasoning is that it makes speaking about pop-music a bit fruitless. Sure, taste is subjective, but changing the meanings of words like 'genius' and defending (argubly) bad albums by saying 'taste is subjective' shuts down conversation. It's totally fine that you like AI, but I wonder if your affection for it is based on how old you were when it was released. I don't like Dark Side of the Moon, for example, but I get why it's a big deal. It's hard to see anyone feeling the same way about American Idiot.As for 'genius' (or game changing) punk records, what about London Calling, or the Ramones S/T? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Milner Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 The problem with this line of reasoning is that it makes speaking about pop-music a bit fruitless. Sure, taste is subjective, but changing the meanings of words like 'genius' and defending (argubly) bad albums by saying 'taste is subjective' shuts down conversation. It's totally fine that you like AI, but I wonder if your affection for it is based on how old you were when it was released. I don't like Dark Side of the Moon, for example, but I get why it's a big deal. It's hard to see anyone feeling the same way about American Idiot.As for 'genius' (or game changing) punk records, what about London Calling, or the Ramones S/T?I dont really think how old i was at the time comes into it, i find the Pulse a work of genius, i definitely wasnt old enough at the time to understand what music was never mind Pink Floyd. I was 21 at the time anyway, and mostly listening to happy hardcore and industrial techno, also like i say, when i first heard the album i flicked through tracks and did not enjoy them that much and put the album aside, it was only later when i sat down and listened to the whole thing that i began to like it, and its an album that over the years has grown and grown on me to the point i now think its their best ever work, and having watch video's on what they did i can appreciate even more what they went through for that album. I can call it genius if thats how i think about it, i really dont see how that can be argued against. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3CR816 Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 I dont really think how old i was at the time comes into it, i find the Pulse a work of genius, i definitely wasnt old enough at the time to understand what music was never mind Pink Floyd. I was 21 at the time anyway, and mostly listening to happy hardcore and industrial techno, also like i say, when i first heard the album i flicked through tracks and did not enjoy them that much and put the album aside, it was only later when i sat down and listened to the whole thing that i began to like it, and its an album that over the years has grown and grown on me to the point i now think its their best ever work, and having watch video's on what they did i can appreciate even more what they went through for that album. I can call it genius if thats how i think about it, i really dont see how that can be argued against.OK, that's cool. I just wondered if you maybe associated the album with a certain time of your life or something. Out of curiosity, what did they go through for that album? My understanding is that they scrapped an album beforehand or something?Still not convinced about the 'genius' thing at all, though, although it's clearly and album that means a lot to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Milner Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 OK, that's cool. I just wondered if you maybe associated the album with a certain time of your life or something. Out of curiosity, what did they go through for that album? My understanding is that they scrapped an album beforehand or something?Still not convinced about the 'genius' thing at all, though. If I wanted to pendantic (which I do), I could argue that Green Day have never displayed "exceptional intellectual ability, creativity or originality". It might be a great album, but genius seems a bit much.I could say that about Blink 182 and earlier Greenday stuff when i was 15/16 but genuinely not when it comes to AI. It wasnt so much what they went through in terms of hardship, although your right they scrapped an entire album and re-wrote AI because someone stole the recordings. It was more for all of their earlier albums bar Warning really Green Day recorded albums in days, not weeks or months, there is a great interview ill try and find with a producer speaking about how Billy Joel was a delight to work with, knew exactly what he wanted and how he wanted to do it, they would go in record and leave without fucking around, Joel would record a lot of vocals in one take and nail them each time, with AI they spent months producing and tweaking before they were happy with what they were releasing, that album ment more to them as a band than any of the others as they really really worked at it, rather than just recording their best songs. Thats why i say it was a project as much as an album for them. Haha im speaking like the biggest Green Day fanboi here sorry!! We can all have our own definition of what falls under genius when it comes to music, its maybe a bit strong for some, but from my point of view i stand by it. For me its prob the most complete pop punk album out there, i love others like Blink and NoFX, and the million other bands similar, but AI for me is a leap above them all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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