harry potter *may contain spoilers*

[Guest b-bert]

Are you people joking? Of course it's contrived, it's a fucking kids book, what do you expect? Go and read dostoevsky or fuckin martin amis or something if you want sophisticated plot and themes.

Those of you who are giving it all this "oh you just read adults books because you want to look clever and you don't even enjoy it" can fuck right off, along with the "you havent even read it how can you slag it off" and the "whats wrong with reading kids books despite the fact I'm 20-30-40 etc it's fun" crowd.

These attitudes are offensive, anti-intellectual, backward and part and parcel of the xbox-playing transformers-the-movie plasma-screen watching consumerist degeneration currently affecting our society.

If you want to read childrens books, watch kids films and play games consoles all day that's fine by me, but don't fucking have a go at the rest of us normally developed adults who appreciate good, diverse literature for being offended by your slavish devotion to rowlings trash.

hahahahahahaha

edit:

I play xbox

I liked transformers the movies

I want a plasma screen

Am i a consumerist ... maybe.

Am i anti intellectual and backward. I would like to think not.

I do not understand where you are getting your opinions from, alot of the folk in the world who contribute to society and the standard of life we have here are interested in these things.

Perhaps your are just trying to pick an argument, but these statements seem especially silly. I mean blaming the so called degeneration of our country on plasma TVs an xboxs. Perhaps a better thing to moan about is the average family situation and how that affects degenerate behavior.

[scottyboy]

Are you people joking? Of course it's contrived, it's a fucking kids book, what do you expect? Go and read dostoevsky or fuckin martin amis or something if you want sophisticated plot and themes.

Those of you who are giving it all this "oh you just read adults books because you want to look clever and you don't even enjoy it" can fuck right off, along with the "you havent even read it how can you slag it off" and the "whats wrong with reading kids books despite the fact I'm 20-30-40 etc it's fun" crowd.

These attitudes are offensive, anti-intellectual, backward and part and parcel of the xbox-playing transformers-the-movie plasma-screen watching consumerist degeneration currently affecting our society.

If you want to read childrens books, watch kids films and play games consoles all day that's fine by me, but don't fucking have a go at the rest of us normally developed adults who appreciate good, diverse literature for being offended by your slavish devotion to rowlings trash.

i crime and punishment when i was about 15... somehow did not stop me from enjoying video games and harry potter novels.

[Stichman]

Are you people joking? Of course it's contrived, it's a fucking kids book, what do you expect? Go and read dostoevsky or fuckin martin amis or something if you want sophisticated plot and themes.

Those of you who are giving it all this "oh you just read adults books because you want to look clever and you don't even enjoy it" can fuck right off, along with the "you havent even read it how can you slag it off" and the "whats wrong with reading kids books despite the fact I'm 20-30-40 etc it's fun" crowd.

These attitudes are offensive, anti-intellectual, backward and part and parcel of the xbox-playing transformers-the-movie plasma-screen watching consumerist degeneration currently affecting our society.

If you want to read childrens books, watch kids films and play games consoles all day that's fine by me, but don't fucking have a go at the rest of us normally developed adults who appreciate good, diverse literature for being offended by your slavish devotion to rowlings trash.

... yer maw

[Guest Steven Dedalus]

I do not understand where you are getting your opinions from, alot of the folk in the world who contribute to society and the standard of life we have here are interested in these things.

I'll tell you where he's getting his opinions from: one too many viewings of 'Nathan Barley', and he thinks he's bloody Dan Ashcroft.

The opinion Mr Stripey voiced is one of the most clichd, over-used, and thoroughly tired out-pourings of smug, psuedo-intellectual, 21st century pop culture commentary that I've heard in quite a while. And seeing as I work in the media, an industry that is noted for that kind of behaviour, that's saying something.

To Mr Stripey: You seem to have missed the point about Dan Ashcroft (amongst other things): In his attempts to critique and stay clear of the Shorditch Twat brigade, he became as bad as them, and ended up being a thoroughly reprehensible character.

Why don't you just nip off and read a bit of your precious Dostoevsky and discover a little bit about character develpoment and catharsis. And leave the people alone for reading shitty Harry Potter books.

[Stripey]

You're wrong, I've held these views since my teenage years. It's got fuck all to do with a tv show and everything to do with an entirely justified dislike of passive, blinkered consumerist plebs who will suck down any old crap tossed at them by the media and marketing culture that they allow to run their lives.

Sorry if you think it's a cliche to mention such things in public, but this is infact the way a lot of people live their lives, wether they can admit it or not. Obviously people can do what they want blah blah poltically corret qualifier blah blah

[Guest Steven Dedalus]

You're wrong, I've held these views since my teenage years. It's got fuck all to do with a tv show and everything to do with an entirely justified dislike of passive, blinkered consumerist plebs who will suck down any old crap tossed at them by the media and marketing culture that they allow to run their lives.

Sorry if you think it's a cliche to mention such things in public, but this is infact the way a lot of people live their lives, wether they can admit it or not. Obviously people can do what they want blah blah poltically corret qualifier blah blah

I wish I could say that I've held the same opinions since my teenage years. Unfortuantely, I've experienced what some might refer to as 'growth', and now look at things in colour rather than black and white.

I appreciate your point about disliking people who get sucked into consumerism, etc, but surely you must see that the stance that you're takingis as old, tired and redundant as what you're railing against?

You seem like an intellligent chap, but just endlessly railing against the so-calle d'idiots' is not going to change anything, rather it will just serve to alienate you and undermine your position. Media, marketing, consumer culture, and plebs are all out there, and they're not going away, you know.

Quite how Harry Potter fits into all of this, I don't know. I would imagine that any criticsm you have of the book being read by adults, the nature of it being a book designed to be put out primarily to make money rather than artistic reasons etc, are all completely negated by the impact on what it has done for both child and adult literacy. Like him or loath him, Mr Harry Potter has done more to get people reading than anything else in a long time.

You know, you seem to be getting very worked up by the fact that people fill their lives with meaningless rubbish, but jeez! That's what people do! We all do it! Every single human being has filled their life with stuff that is totally pointless, and then makes that relevant to their own life. We;re doing it right now by posting on this music forum. it doesn't really matter, but we've made it matter.

Open your arms to it! Take your first steps into a bigger, brighter world!

And just for pettiness: I refuse to believe that you are not aware that you come accross as a Fisher Price version of Dan Ashcroft. I'd have thought the picture of him and the reference to the 'idiots' was a dead give-away.

But maybe I've just swallowed all the hype, etc, etc.

[KimyReizeger]

Quite how Harry Potter fits into all of this, I don't know.

scaled-down representation of the 'wider issue'?

[KimyReizeger]

i (read) crime and punishment when i was about 15... somehow did not stop me from enjoying video games and harry potter novels.

Why on earth did you do that? You should've been reading Harry Potter!

[Guest Steven Dedalus]

scaled-down representation of the 'wider issue'?

I guess so, but surely we can't blame it all on the poor lad!

He's got enough on his plate as it is!

[Stripey]

Quite how Harry Potter fits into all of this, I don't know. I would imagine that any criticsm you have of the book being read by adults, the nature of it being a book designed to be put out primarily to make money rather than artistic reasons etc, are all completely negated by the impact on what it has done for both child and adult literacy. Like him or loath him, Mr Harry Potter has done more to get people reading than anything else in a long time.

Bullshit. They are reading, but reading trash. As for the rest of your quite frankly nonsensical rant, your idea of personal growth seems to be about learning to love the status quo and resigning yourself to living in a world full of braindead monkeys. Probably with ironic moustaches, if your avatar is anything to go by.

[Guest Steven Dedalus]

Bullshit. They are reading, but reading trash. As for the rest of your quite frankly nonsensical rant, your idea of personal growth seems to be about learning to love the status quo and resigning yourself to living in a world full of braindead monkeys. Probably with ironic moustaches, if your avatar is anything to go by.

Ha ha! that's the spirit!

I imagine that even the braindead monkeys you speak of would be able to realise that if a child, or indeed an adult, reads a Harry Potter book, it seems to be the case that they will enjoy this whole 'reading' thing, and then attempt to pick up another book to see if it's as good. That's why more people are reading books at the moment than had been the case previously.

In terms of 'learning to love the status quo, etc', that generally comes under the heading of 'being able to exist in the 'real' world.' If you want to be some kind of pseudo intellectual warrior, running about forcing people to read Kafka, and pontificating about 'important subjects', I'd imagine you'd find the world a very scary place. And possibly a bit of a dull one as well.

However, if one accepts that the world is more bad than good, but conceeds that goodness does exist (and in this case, both 'good' and 'bad' are referring to aesthetic criteria rather than moral judgements), we can spend our time learning how to avoid the bad bits, and revel in the good bits. If someone reads Harry Potter and enjoys it, you seem to have interpreted this as some kind of imagined sleight against culture and literature, when in fact it has absolutely nothign to do with you. If someone was following you around, loudly screaming passages from the new Harry Potter book, I guess you'd have a definate reason to complain. As it is, you are astounded and confused by the fact that people have read a book (that you deem to be below you), and are discussing the bits they enjoyed/hated. Once again, if you're not interested in this, what's it got to do with you?

Personally I think Mr Potter is a load of simplified nonsense, aimed at making money and cultivating a publishing phenomemon, but so what? No-one's ever held me at gun point and forced me to read it. In fact, I only went on this forum becuase I was bored at work.

Personal growth, for me, 'seems' to be about learning to understand where you fit in with the rest of the world. As I mentioned earlier in my 'nonsensical' rant, when I was younger, things used to annoy me that shouldn't have, and I always believed I was right (sometimes I still do). But as I've got a bit older, I can begin to appreciate that there are things out there that will never be'right', and that I don't care becuase it dosen't affect me.

Now, in anticipation of another 'barb' from you (or perhaps I'm overestimating you), the end result of that philosophy is to focus on the self and ignore the rest of the world. You end up in a situation where you don't care about anything that dosen't provoke an emotional response within you. Which is what I imagine my next stage of development might be. And I have a fairly long way to go. That's roughly what I'd term personal growth: learning to understand how things work.

As for my moustache, there was nothing 'ironic' about it (as I'm sure any number of people could tell you). I thought it looked cool, and it reminded me of Robbie Robertson from the Band.

And surely a monkey with a moustache would just be plain ludicrous? Get a grip, man!

[Thomas Banacek]

Are you people joking? Of course it's contrived, it's a fucking kids book, what do you expect? Go and read dostoevsky or fuckin martin amis or something if you want sophisticated plot and themes.

Those of you who are giving it all this "oh you just read adults books because you want to look clever and you don't even enjoy it" can fuck right off, along with the "you havent even read it how can you slag it off" and the "whats wrong with reading kids books despite the fact I'm 20-30-40 etc it's fun" crowd.

These attitudes are offensive, anti-intellectual, backward and part and parcel of the xbox-playing transformers-the-movie plasma-screen watching consumerist degeneration currently affecting our society.

If you want to read childrens books, watch kids films and play games consoles all day that's fine by me, but don't fucking have a go at the rest of us normally developed adults who appreciate good, diverse literature for being offended by your slavish devotion to rowlings trash.

Oh, look at Stripey name drop lots of "intellectual" books.

Get to fuck.

If you want a decent Russian author, stick Dostoyevsky up your arse and try reading Zamyatin's "We", an amazing book.

In the meantime, I will read Harry Potter if I want. I will read STuart MacBride crime novels if I want. I will watch "trashy movies and TV shows" if I want.

I have read plenty of the "classics" and plenty philosophy books too. Most of them are bollocks. Some are amazing. Animal Farm never gets boring, and Slaughterhouse 5 is always good for a read.

Do I feel any better than anyone else for reading these books? No.

Do I feel any less intellectual than you for reading stuff you consider trash? Certainly not.

I'd feel sorry for you if you weren't such a cock.

[Stripey]

Ha ha! that's the spirit!

I imagine that even the braindead monkeys you speak of would be able to realise that if a child, or indeed an adult, reads a Harry Potter book, it seems to be the case that they will enjoy this whole 'reading' thing, and then attempt to pick up another book to see if it's as good.

The only other books these people are going to be reading will just be whatever trash the zeitgeist compels them to buy. "The curious incident of the dog in the night" is a case in point of how these marginally more sophisticated readers are really no different than the average harry potter consumer.

Do you really think that the kind of people who read rowlings pish are somehow going to turn into avid readers of great literature once they realise that you don't have to cream your pants over months of media hype, dress as a wizard and queue at midnight to buy good books?

The rest of what you've said is quite sad really, you're basically advocating a disengagement which reduces "culture" to something which you just passively consume, rather than participate in. Where does political protest, or even satire fit into your "it doesn't concern me directly therefore I don't give a fuck and will keep my mouth shut and learn to live with it" philosophy, for example?

You sound quite depressive, I think you're trying to rationalise your feelings of inadequacy and impotence.

[Chris]

Do you really think that the kind of people who read rowlings pish are somehow going to turn into avid readers of great literature once they realise that you don't have to cream your pants over months of media hype, dress as a wizard and queue at midnight to buy good books?

Er... why not? I know plenty of folk who have fantastic taste in books, movies and music but also enjoy a bit of the shite as well (myself included). It's perfectly possible to have a wide range of tastes that includes the great works and also enjoy mental chewing gum like potter.

[Guest Steven Dedalus]

The only other books these people are going to be reading will just be whatever trash the zeitgeist compels them to buy. "The curious incident of the dog in the night" is a case in point of how these marginally more sophisticated readers are really no different than the average harry potter consumer.

Do you really think that the kind of people who read rowlings pish are somehow going to turn into avid readers of great literature once they realise that you don't have to cream your pants over months of media hype, dress as a wizard and queue at midnight to buy good books?

The rest of what you've said is quite sad really, you're basically advocating a disengagement which reduces "culture" to something which you just passively consume, rather than participate in. Where does political protest, or even satire fit into your "it doesn't concern me directly therefore I don't give a fuck and will keep my mouth shut and learn to live with it" philosophy, for example?

You sound quite depressive, I think you're trying to rationalise your feelings of inadequacy and impotence.

This gets better and better!

1. Define 'great literature'. That could mean anything.

2. Where does satire fit in with a philosophy that advocates disengagement with certain aspects of society? Satire is a medium primarily based on disengagement, you cretin. Lets use 'Private Eye' as an example. Being considered Britain's premier satirical journal, how would it function if it was attached to a particular viewpoint or persuasion? The only reason the satire can work is because the viewpoint of the magazine is disengaged from any form of political or moral standpoint. Hence why you can have a satirical look at a Labour politician, and a Conservative one. Satirical comment con only be successful if it is disengaged from both the target and the opposing viewpoint, otherwise it becomes commentary, which is something totally different.

3. Define a 'sophisticated reader', never-mind a 'more sophisticated reader'. Seeing as literature is primarily based on aesthetic criteria that are built up over a life-time of experience, once again it could mean anything. What if Einstein read 'Spiderman'? Would he be an unsophisticated reader? Surely, by definition (I'm helping you out here, because I have a feeling I might have to), an unsophisticated reader would be someone who has a limited grasp of vocabulary and/or grammar? In that event, is a sophisticated reader someone who has a good grasp of language and grammar? Is 'Borstal Boy' by Brendan Behan unsophisticated because he uses fairly gutteral language? Is Harry Potter sophisticated because JK Rowling is able to convey notions which exist outside the sphere of human consciousness to younger reader using very efficient language?

4. Surely opting out of a political system is a political protest in itself? It forces the person in question to deal with laws and policies in an individual manner. The end result being an inversion of 'Think Global, Act Local' and ending up as 'Think personal, act personal', thus engaging in a private political dialogue with yourself and your surroundings. In a certain sense, almost every act can be considered political.

5. As I feared, you have completely misunderstood my entire standpoint, which is that human consciousness evolves as time goes on, and certain viewpoints that are held up as being water-tight, often go through endless permutations. For example, I used to think post-rock was brilliant, now I find it boring. You missed out on the end part of the statement which included the point, or conclusion, if you will.

6. It would be weird for me to reduce 'culture' to something I 'passively consume' because part of my job is to be a cultural commentator. Included within my remit is to inspire, consolidate, and participate. In a sense, I operate under the principal that good journalistic commentary can be an end in of itself, and can be as valid as the art, or event, it seeks to comment on. Read "Mystery Train" by Greil Marcus, "Psychotic Reactions and Carburettor Dung" by Lester Bangs, or anything by Simon Schama or Julie Birchill (particularly the early stuff when she still knew what she was talking about. Heck, even Charlie Brooker's 'Screen Burn' column in the Guardian can elevate itself above criticism. You should check him out. Essentially, you are a parody of a character he created, which was in itself a parody of him.

7. Define 'culture'. It's like defining 'good'.

8. I suppose I am a bit depressive, actually. I've had a fairly hard time of it recently.

9. Try investigating 'objectivity'. It would help your analysis.

10. I don't believe I am impotent. It's been a wee while, but I believe it's still working.

[Stripey]

By "great literature" I don't mean "great" in the same sense that a literary historian would use the word, I just mean great books.

Private Eye, which I do read myself sometimes (I keep it in the bathroom where it belongs) and any other satire *does* always take a political and moral standpoint and has nothing to do with disengagement - the fact of it's existence is evidence enough.

Opting out is not a protest if you just become passive, it's more like a suicide than a statement of intent.

Yes we all know what it's like to be caught up in something then get sick of it, in your case "post-rock" as you've said, it's human nature - but you miss the point, and aren't thinking in an abstract enough manner.

BTW FYI I was reading brookers TV Go Home long before barley was commisioned so STFU and GTFO.

What does your journalist job entail, is it covering sheep trials for the deeside piper?

[Guest Steven Dedalus]

By "great literature" I don't mean "great" in the same sense that a literary historian would use the word, I just mean great books.

Private Eye, which I do read myself sometimes (I keep it in the bathroom where it belongs) and any other satire *does* always take a political and moral standpoint and has nothing to do with disengagement - the fact of it's existence is evidence enough.

Opting out is not a protest if you just become passive, it's more like a suicide than a statement of intent.

Yes we all know what it's like to be caught up in something then get sick of it, in your case "post-rock" as you've said, it's human nature - but you miss the point, and aren't thinking in an abstract enough manner.

BTW FYI I was reading brookers TV Go Home long before barley was commisioned so STFU and GTFO.

What does your journalist job entail, is it covering sheep trials for the deeside piper?

Ha ha ha! I was going to refrain from childish name calling, but you are a bit of a cob nobbler, aren't you?

In your 'definition' of 'great literature', you have just changed the word 'literature' and replaced it with the word 'book'. That's not really a definition, more a case of replacing one word with another that has a vaguely connected meaning.

Surely even Private Eye's declaration that they have no political stance, and are opposed to everything is a bit of a dead giveaway to how satire works? Chumpo.

Sorry for not thinking in an abstract manner. I felt it was better to be straightforward with you, as you seem to have difficulty understanding statements and concepts. I'll bear that in mind in future when I next get involved in one of your pointless attempts to be 'controversial', like your hero, Dan Ashcroft.

Congrats on reading TVGoHome before it became famous. You are like so totally cool, duuude. Shame you didn't get any of it. It's quite funny if you understand the jokes.

Please don't use all those stupid abreviations. They are very unsophisticated.

My 'journalist job', as you so eloquently put it, is too highbrow for you to grasp. To bring it to your level, it involves words and pictures.

[Stripey]

Sorry, you've fallen off, I just find you incredibly tedious. I've obviously given you more credit than you are due.

I am genuinely interested to learn what kind of journalism you're involved in though.

[Metarie]

Fuck Harry Potter (nasty mental image): this is the most entertaining thing I've read in ages. Keep it up guys!

[KimyReizeger]

If someone was following you around, loudly screaming passages from the new Harry Potter book, I guess you'd have a definate reason to complain.

But, if you think about it, this is actually what happens.

Think for a second of 'culture', quite simply, as shared beliefs, attitudes and practices within a community. You seem to be suggesting an individuality and detachment from said community, brought about by consciously 'not paying attention' to popular things which disinterest you, subsequently remaining unmoved. I think that it's impossible to detach youself from the culture that fundamentally contains you, physically and mentally - shared beliefs growing and changing together, influencing one another. So if the over-riding mental exertion of a culture that you belong to amounts to HP worship.... I depend on this culture for certain things, which means I need to participate, and thus, can't merely 'switch off' and remain unaffected by the things that don't interest me.

...more for the sake of argument than a particular gripe against Mr Potter.

[Guest Steven Dedalus]

Sorry you find me tedious. I just don't like to see the 'idiots' 'winning', as you so controversially have in your avatar. But surely, if you find this argument tedious - and, by proxy, me - you'd let it go?

(By the way, when you're pretending to be Dan Ashcroft, is it really a good idea to have Dan Ashcroft as you avatar? Especially when it's placed beside a quote from Dan Ashcroft? Just a thought. I felt you should be introduced to an original one)

In answer to your question, I am a journalist who works in both the printed medium and the world of radio. I'll maybe elaborate more clearly if you answer me three questions (because I have my own theories):

1. What age are you?

2. What do you do?

3. Are you the Zombie Munch of yore?

[Guest Steven Dedalus]

But, if you think about it, this is actually what happens.

Think for a second of 'culture', quite simply, as shared beliefs, attitudes and practices within a community. You seem to be suggesting an individuality and detachment from said community, brought about by consciously 'not paying attention' to popular things which disinterest you, subsequently remaining unmoved. I think that it's impossible to detach youself from the culture that fundamentally contains you, physically and mentally - shared beliefs growing and changing together, influencing one another. So if the over-riding mental exertion of a culture that you belong to amounts to HP worship.... I depend on this culture for certain things, which means I need to participate, and thus, can't merely 'switch off' and remain unaffected by the things that don't interest me.

...more for the sake of argument than a particular gripe against Mr Potter.

That's probably a clearer way of thinking about it than I've been putting accross. What I've been getting at is that I may not like Harry Potter (which I don't), but I can be aware of the culltural impact and choose to acknowledge that for the both good and bad thing that it is, but also never bother reading a Harry Potter book (which I haven't) or having to much of a connection to it (which I don't).

It's not about disconnection, as such, it's more about dislocation from certain things.

But your way of explaining it was better.

[Stripey]

(By the way, when you're pretending to be Dan Ashcroft, is it really a good idea to have Dan Ashcroft as you avatar? Especially when it's placed beside a quote from Dan Ashcroft? Just a thought. I felt you should be introduced to an original one)

I think you're reading far more into my avatar (which I chose a long time ago and have just kept for the sake of consistency and mostly because I like the expression on the guys face) than is warranted, don't let it mislead you.

I'm not "zombie munch" and if you really must know I was born in 1980, so we're actually almost the same age.

[KimyReizeger]

It was really funny to see one of the chefs at my old work - thirty years old, convicted sex offender, vicious foul-mouthed bastard - banging on about how quickly he finished the latest Potter...

[Stripey]

It was really funny to see one of the chefs at my old work - thirty years old, convicted sex offender, vicious foul-mouthed bastard - banging on about how quickly he finished the latest Potter...

bahahahaha. Hermione better watch her arse.