Music...

[ghost]

Jumping back a few pages - birdsong is a product of birds communicating with each other and we perceive this as music, ditto whales. So language is also music?

Re the teacup arguement, yes that would be music. Possibly music no sane person would admit to enjoying, but music nonetheless.

Good thread!

[Guest Philip]

Originally posted by ghost:

Jumping back a few pages - birdsong is a product of birds communicating with each other and we perceive this as music, ditto whales. So language is also music?

Re the teacup arguement, yes that would be music. Possibly music no sane person would admit to enjoying, but music nonetheless.

Good thread!

I'm using this as my definition of music for the near future as I feel it covers (just about) every eventuality of what music might be:

Musc = any combination of (sound, silence and sonic vibration)

It kind of all hangs on whether or not humans are the only 'thing' that perceives something as music.

If humans are the only 'thing' that perceives something as music, then if I hear/perceive any combination of (sound, silence and sonic vibration) as music, it there for IS music, yes?

With regards to the tea cup etc, music does not have to be enjoyed.

[soundian]

Originally posted by spellchecker:

definitely "that's music", because we are trying to define music. in saying "that's like music", we are comparing to a definition of music we have not yet established, and hence not identifying, clarifying or defining anything whatsoever.

No silly, I mean when you hear something naturally created or a product of randomness. Which phrase crosses your mind first?

[soundian]

Originally posted by Philip:

I'm using this as my definition of music for the near future as I feel it covers (just about) every eventuality of what music might be:

Musc = any combination of (sound, silence and sonic vibration)

It kind of all hangs on whether or not humans are the only 'thing' that perceives something as music.

If humans are the only 'thing' that perceives something as music, then if I hear/perceive any combination of (sound, silence and sonic vibration) as music, it there for IS music, yes?

With regards to the tea cup etc, music does not have to be enjoyed.

I'll try again.

Music is an art. Art is 'human skill and work as opposed to nature'.

You're right about music not having to be enjoyed though. Don't I know it.

[spellchecker]

Originally posted by soundian:

No silly, I mean when you hear something naturally created or a product of randomness. Which phrase crosses your mind first?

Hmm, I don't know. What do you think? When you hear the amps click off at the end of the night in Drummonds, don't you think, "That's music to my ears."?

Personally, music is anywhere I can hear or imagine a melody or a rhythm. I've heard beats in people coughing in a waiting room before, I can hear melody in bus brakes screeching. Real or imagined, it doesn't really matter, because I thought about it, and for a split second wondered where the music came from. So I suppose I think, it is music, not like music.

[Guest Philip]

Originally posted by soundian:

I'll try again.

Music is an art. Art is 'human skill and work as opposed to nature'.

You're right about music not having to be enjoyed though. Don't I know it.

This makes the assumption, rightly or wrongly, that we are the only thing that perceives music... I dont know whether or not other things ie: birds, whales etc do or not, do you?

I'm beginning think/believe that there is such a thing as natural music, that does not have to be made or perceived by a human for it to be classed as such, it exists of it's own accord, ie: the sound, silence and sonic vibration of life.

I just feel that music is much more than just an art form, humans take too much credit in my eyes!

[spellchecker]

Originally posted by Philip:

This makes the assumption, rightly or wrongly, that we are the only thing that perceives music... I dont know whether or not other things ie: birds, whales etc do or not, do you?

I'm beginning think/believe that there is such a thing as natural music, that does not have to be made or perceived by a human for it to be classed as such, it exists of it's own accord, ie: the sound, silence and sonic vibration of life.

And with that, Philip ascended into the ether.

The End.

Please.

[soundian]

Music is a term devised by humans to differentiate between man-made and natural sounds. Other animals may think differently but since we're all human here we have to go by the human definition, otherwise words then have no meaning.

You may perceive it as music but it isn't music.

[Guest Philip]

Originally posted by soundian:

Music is a term devised by humans to differentiate between man-made and natural sounds. Other animals may think differently but since we're all human here we have to go by the human definition, otherwise words then have no meaning.

You may perceive it as music but it isn't music.

OK, we'll agree to disagree...

but in the same way that man has trouble trying to comprehend what life is etc, I think similar problems apply to the human perception of music, there is a whole lot more to it than what the popular definition of the word conveys, that cant be explained or rationalised... words fail!

[Frosty Jack]

Originally posted by soundian:

You may perceive it as music but it isn't music.

If he, or anyone, perceives it as music, then it is music. In his head. Outside of his head, it is a sound. Sound is not music until it reaches your brain. And sound, vibration and silence are the same thing. Sound is vibration of molecules, usually air. Silence is an absence of vibration. An object vibrates which makes the air molecules between it and your ear vibrate, which make your eardrum vibrate, which sends a signal to your brain, which interprets this signal and decides whether it's music or not. All sound is potential music. Music is a signal from your eardrum that your brain likes. A guitar doesn't make music, your brain does. A guitar makes vibrations. A teacup, a bird, a drop of tiger sweat landing on a dead leaf, or anything else don't make music, your brain does.

I once saw a guy outside a club in Brixton dancing like a nutter having the time of his life. The music he was dancing to was his own keys jangling in his hand as he danced.

[Guest Philip]

Originally posted by Frosty Jack:

If he, or anyone, perceives it as music, then it is music. In his head. Outside of his head, it is a sound. Sound is not music until it reaches your brain. And sound, vibration and silence are the same thing. Sound is vibration of molecules, usually air. Silence is an absence of vibration. An object vibrates which makes the air molecules between it and your ear vibrate, which make your eardrum vibrate, which sends a signal to your brain, which interprets this signal and decides whether it's music or not. All sound is potential music. Music is a signal from your eardrum that your brain likes. A guitar doesn't make music, your brain does. A guitar makes vibrations. A teacup, a bird, a drop of tiger sweat landing on a dead leaf, or anything else don't make music, your brain does.

I take it you dont agree with me that music exists without human involvement of any kind?

[soundian]

Originally posted by Frosty Jack:

. A guitar doesn't make music, your brain does.

Exactly my point.

[soundian]

Originally posted by Philip:

I take it you dont agree with me that music exists without human involvement of any kind?

If music relies in the person hearing it to perceive it as music or not, then it can't exist without human involvement.

[Guest Philip]

so, with the assumption that it is purely a human perception, would this maybe be a good starting point?

Music: A human perception of sound, silence and sonic vibration.

[Emma]

people should be more open to music, appreciated all different kinds.

[Guest Philip]

Originally posted by Emma:

people should be more open to music, appreciated all different kinds.

Yes, ideally we should be open to ALL music!

[soundian]

Originally posted by Philip:

so, with the assumption that it is purely a human perception, would this maybe be a good starting point?

Music: A humans perception of sound, silence and sonic vibration.

As I said before, you can perceive it as music as much as you like, but if it isn't man-made, it isn't music. It may sound like music,taste like music, smell like music but it isn't music.

[Guest Philip]

Originally posted by soundian:

As I said before, you can perceive it as music as much as you like, but if it isn't man-made, it isn't music. It may sound like music,taste like music, smell like music but it isn't music.

But if someone hears it as music, why isn't it?

[Emma]

Originally posted by Philip:

Yes, ideally we should be open to ALL music!

Indeed

[Guest Philip]

Sorry to keep on, this might cover what your saying!?

Music: A human perception of man made and/or manipulated sound, silence and sonic vibration.

[soundian]

Originally posted by Philip:

But if someone hears it as music, why isn't it?

Music is an art and art is man-made.

Unless you say music isn't an art.

[Camie]

Originally posted by Emma:

there are some things such as "organised sound" where the composers in the 20th century discard pitch rhythem and harmony etc. I personally feel this isn't music, but still it is classed as music. that is definitly just a disturbance of silence! also things like "musique concrete" where natural sounds are recorded them modified ie. cutting re-assembling playing backward adding speed changes etc. I dont really 'like' this but i can appreciate it.

Tone Row or Atonal music. We had to that in music I think just to appreciate it and its cool how different and weird it sounds. Yeh everyone has there own opinion on music which means they wont like certain types but doesnt mean you cant appreciate it. Baroque for example. Im not a big fan of it (especially when the harpsicord plays), but I appreciate the various techniques in it that has influenced many composers.

[Guest Philip]

Originally posted by soundian:

Music is an art and art is man-made.

Unless you say music isn't an art.

man made music is art, but it is also more than that...there is this whole otherness to it that just can be explained.

[spellchecker]

Originally posted by Frosty Jack:

Silence is an absence of vibration.

This made me think. For deaf people, all they have is silence - yet they are surrounded by vibration, much of which they still feel. I can't begin to think what it would be like to be deaf, but I imagine your perception of vibration would change radically (well, if you were once hearing and became deaf). It's like when someone is approaching you from behind, and you can feel them before you can see or hear them. It's not always sound.

[Guest Philip]

Originally posted by spellchecker:

This made me think. For deaf people, all they have is silence - yet they are surrounded by vibration, much of which they still feel. I can't begin to think what it would be like to be deaf, but I imagine your perception of vibration would change radically (well, if you were once hearing and became deaf). It's like when someone is approaching you from behind, and you can feel them before you can see or hear them. It's not always sound.

Hence: sound, silence and sonic vibration