Does God Exist?

[GraemeC]

Time for my post' date=' any asks my do i believe or worship god i will always reply to which one do you mean i believe in many gos and goddesses, i believe in the existance of all gods but i dont follow all of the belief systems, there is a place for all religions even if they have casue many wars and destruction, i even believe in thew existance of the Norse Gods such as Odin and Satan as well he is another god one of many, just becasue they have been given the title god doesnt mean that they are kind and loving, and about the quake i don't think that was an act of god but just tectonic plates moving dramatically.

Deepdrinker[/quote']

Bloody hell....do you believe in Santa and the tooth fairy as well?

If you believe in god...or in you're case a shit load of gods...you must therefore believe that he/they created all things and are all powerful, if thats what you believe then how do you explain their causing/not preventing the recent tragedy that centred on the Indian ocean.

I heard one arsehole explain that god allows these things to happen...(it was aids we were talking about)...to punish wrong doers....give me a fucking break!!

[Flash@TMB]

I heard one arsehole explain that god allows these things to happen...(it was aids we were talking about)...to punish wrong doers....give me a fucking break!!

Not strictly related to the above comment, but it's worth exploring the whole topic of divine intervention. Punishment I'm steering clear of though...

Hypothetically God has 3 choices (also scope for humourous 4th, 5th choice etc to be inserted):

A) Not intervene in anything.

B) Intervene in everything that's bad (in which case mankind and especially Dick Cheney would be on the receiving end a lot of the time).

C) Intervene on a subjective case by case basis. Some people (too many) will interpret this as God primarily looking out for mankind because we are 'apparently' somehow more deserving. Personally I would argue that mankind has already been helped enough by being blessed with the ability to think and reason and is therefore (if anything) less deserving.

***

Were God to choose C), and especially if that involved pulling mankind out of the shit then IMO God would not be deserving of Godhood let alone any respect. Hey perhaps God could intervene to prevent global warming. Then we can all continue to pollute the environment.

Were God to choose B) then God would be VERY busy, and in all honesty would save a lot of time, grief, and effort by simply removing our brains, and promoting the dolphins or whatever.

So my guess is that any rational God would choose A).

It's also worthwhile looking into the causes of various disasters be they earthquake or AIDS for example to see the extent of the changes that God would have to make in order to prevent/reverse them. Ha if God reversed them then how would we know they existed in the first place? Perhaps God's already fixed a lot of shit we don't know about. Also if God fixes AIDS then should he not also deal with miximotosis in rabbits (however it's spelt). What makes people so special? Why should God love people more? Shouldn't God love everything equally? Hey I don't know the answers to these questions, I'm just asking them. Heh heh playing Gods advocate

BTW GreameC - I realise that this is waay off at a tangent to your quoted comment, and this is not targeted at you in any way. You just got me thinking. Again LOL.

PPS I do believe in the Tooth Fairy, because I have proof - it left 50p under my pillow once in 1978. BUT on the subject of Gods I'm not so sure that I believe in Ronald McDonald or Vin Diesel. In fact I'm pretty sure than Vin Diesel in a special FX generated by Lucas Arts INC.

[GraemeC]

this is not targeted at you in any way. You just got me thinking.

Bastard......I hate it when you think

[lepeep]

one questions flash...."who's god" should we believe in ?...."the one true god"...(step forward please).

here is a question, if god is all loving, ever forgiving, why does a "hell" exsist ?

surely if forgiveness is at the root of his ethos, no hell could exsist.

ahh..that'll be the bit that humans made up (like the rest of it) to make sure that everyone is too scared to think otherwise, because they are all too uneducated and stupid to think for themselves. (or too scared to realise that life means nothing, it's just a time to "live" and be good, do good things and help others, pass on information, so the future of mankind might just be a wee bit better than previous times.....nahh...that'd never happen....) fucking humans.

[Flash@TMB]

one questions flash...."who's god" should we believe in ?...."the one true god"...(step forward please).

Check definition of word hypothetical' date=' and then note it's use in my post LOL...

The best explanation I've heard is that God is that which is unmanifest, the nothingness that gave birth to the universe. Only that which is manifested is generally deemed to exist. So I guess there is a God but it doesn't exist. Or thereabouts...

here is a question, if god is all loving, ever forgiving, why does a "hell" exsist ?

surely if forgiveness is at the root of his ethos, no hell could exsist.

That which we generally term Hell was invented by the Church (note church with big 'C'). Other religions and belief systems have similar concepts though. I sincerely doubt whether Hell (or the Devil) exists. I agree with you that they are in contradiction to everything else spouted about God and love etc. From a metaphysical perspective it's extremely hard to harm a soul in absolute terms, although harm may be perceived to occur within the physical world (microcosm). This pretty much renders the concept of evil obsolete.

This is what I suspect MAY happen during err death, although this is not necessarily something that I believe:

Person dies and their energy body separates from their physical body. They experience a very vivid OOBE.

The energy body then usually goes to live on the spritual plane with all the other dead people, although some hang around for a while like Patrick Swayze. Some of dead may occasionally visit the pyhsical as ghosts. Society over there is not dissimilar to here but operates more akin to a perfect anarchy. It probably resembles a sunny retirement village. The dead have plenty of opportunity (approx 100 years in our concept of time) to reflect on their lives but are unable to 'learn' anything new.

Eventually the energy body runs out of juice and decomposes leaving only the spark behind. At this point all physical memories and ego (assimilated personailty) are lost leaving only the id. To experience what this feels like try dropping 5 really strong hits of acid at the same time. Wait on second thoughts perhaps best not to LOL.

The spark then goes seeking another physical incarnation with a view to continuing it's quest for it's mate (in order to form a complete dual gendered soul), and reserves occupancy of the next appropriate unborn human OF THE CORRECT SEX, at the moment of birth, just at the point where the doc slaps it's feet!

Source: The Kabbalah (the original as opposed to the Madonna and star studded celeb subscribed version).

Ref: Francis Israel Regardie - The Tree of Life.

[Biz]

did you hear about the dyslexic agnostic?

He wasn't sure if there was a dog.

[lepeep]

The spark then goes seeking another physical incarnation with a view to continuing it's quest for it's mate (in order to form a complete dual gendered soul)' date=' and reserves occupancy of the next appropriate unborn human OF THE CORRECT SEX, at the moment of birth, just at the point where the doc slaps it's feet!

Source: The Kabbalah (the original as opposed to the Madonna and star studded celeb subscribed version).

Ref: Francis Israel Regardie - The Tree of Life.[/quote']

ahh, so where do all the other "new people" come from then ?

as the world's population has been growing since day one, there must be many "empty people" without souls / sparks (as there are too many bodies vs "souls")...

I was just going to ask "how do you know dying is like dropping 5 tabs ?"

he he...(none of these points are serious by the way).

one thing I did notice, you do tend to use the capital "G" when talking about god...is there a reason for that ?

all the talk about god and creating makes me chuckle, it's amazing that humans need a reason for everything... I had a few conversations about the creation of a god by humans, I (we, my friends and I) think it all stems from early man "creating" things (like fire), and that gets them thinking...well, If I did this...who made me ?.....and "humanise" the process, by adding a patriarchal / matriarchal entity (in humankinds form) to give "reason" to all the things that exsist in the world....

my early point was just this, humans need reasurance that their exsistance means something, it has to be for a reason...

I am happy with never knowing how or why we are here, just to make the most of the time we are here, and to pass on knowledge and learning so the next generation(s) don't have to start from scratch.

and all the bollox about being "judged" when you die, is blatantly obviosuly invented by churches / organisations that want to control the masses, fuck all to do with an omnipotent god wanting his "sheep to behave".

[GraemeC]

The evidence.....

Evolution:

lots of shit like fossil remains and an obvious direct link between us and a more primitive species.

God:

lots of stories in a big thick book about him and his son and how clever they both were, and the magic tricks god did to prove his existence, but fuck all for the last 2000 years or so.

[Flash@TMB]

ahh' date=' so where do all the other "new people" come from then ?

as the world's population has been growing since day one, there must be many "empty people" without souls / sparks (as there are too many bodies vs "souls")...[/quote']

Well according to the same sources new souls are being created all the time. Hence the terms new soul, and old soul. IMO it's easy to tell the difference between the two, if this is in fact correct.

I was just going to ask "how do you know dying is like dropping 5 tabs ?"

Well when someone drops 5 tabs they typically undergo something termed "ego death" or "dissolutiuon of the ego". It's very unpleasant at first' date=' but interesting none the less.

he he...(none of these points are serious by the way).

Hey this is the best discussion and most enjoyable discussion I've participated in on the Wasteland. Distinct lack of err "new souls".

one thing I did notice' date=' you do tend to use the capital "G" when talking about god...is there a reason for that ?[/quote']

Yes same as I'd capitalise "John" if I was referring to him.

all the talk about god and creating makes me chuckle' date=' it's amazing that humans need a reason for everything... I had a few conversations about the creation of a god by humans, I (we, my friends and I) think it all stems from early man "creating" things (like fire), and that gets them thinking...well, If I did this...who made me ?.....and "humanise" the process, by adding a patriarchal / matriarchal entity (in humankinds form) to give "reason" to all the things that exsist in the world....[/quote']

Personally (and no offence) but I think it is naive to believe that this all just happened on it's own. I also suspect that we place too much importance on the material world, and that life slowly enlightens us to this by continually kicking the shit out of us. That's why I'm a big fan of death - it's a great leveller. I'm also a great fan of capital gains tax LOL.

my early point was just this' date=' humans need reasurance that their exsistance means something, it has to be for a reason...[/quote']

Well to digress slightly, but hopefully contribute something along the way... There are several books and documentary programmes that relate stories by people that have temp died, experienced an OOBE and possibly something that they perceive to be the afterlife. These accounts are usually remakabley similar.

Scientists that prefer God not to exist put this down to some sort of built it pre-programmed hallucination to make us feel better about dying. But in most cases the people that have this experience instantly develop a strong belief in God and the afterlife...

...except for this one dude. See there was this guy who basically came across as an ignorant materialistic fuck - AKA a new soul. And when he temp died he ended up in theis barren wasteland being chased by horrible wolves. He described this place as having gray skies and being rocky and drab with very little vegitation. Anyhow on his return this guy was adament that they was no afterlife and it had all been A VERY BAD (but vivid) DREAM. LMAO.

What this dude doesn't know is that his description matches exactly alleged eyewitness accounts the first astral plane, where spiritually retarded people are reputed to end up after they die. That's probably the closest thing to hell, but fortunately it isn't enteral, and not as bad as it might initially seem. No worse than say East Kilbride at any rate. Just a good kick up the arse, must try harder next time type concept.

So the point of that anecdote was that for some people it's MORE reassuring to believe that there is no afterlife. The cool thing is that we all get to find out.

***

My own take on the subject is more a wait and see thing. I like to flag these occult and metaphysical theories because often they are more cohesive and thought provoking than contemporary science. Although it must be stressed that these are not belief systems and are non-religious.

[lepeep]

Well to digress slightly' date=' but hopefully contribute something along the way... There are several books and documentary programmes that relate stories by people that have temp died, experienced an OOBE and possibly something that they perceive to be the afterlife. These accounts are usually remakabley similar. [/quote']

I dream I can fly at night, does this mean there is a place where everyone can fly ? (probably, if you believe in parallel universes!)

I wonder if animals have religions ?... how would we ever know ?

My theory on man and his / her belief(s) is, do what ever floats your boat, but don't expect everyone else to think the same as you...that will sadly never happen, as mankind is a greed, self centred waste of space (on the whole), yet, compassionate, loving and caring on the same hand...

the thing about the big bang, you are once again stating that it had to have happened for a reason, or some giant comsmic "man" ("him", I note you call "it"), that has to start things happening...why ?! "god is everywhere, everything, omnipotent"...so if he was, and god is love, why does all the bad stuff happen "to test us", thanks G....ever noticed it's the people who believe in "him" that get tested ... god is stupid, "he's" testing the wrong people.

If there is an after life, then (with your Kabala theory), heaven IS earth, as you get spat back into...so, heaven is not so great then, as hell must exsist within it to (as you've already stated, it's east kilbride !)...

ho ho

[Flash@TMB]

I dream I can fly at night' date=' does this mean there is a place where everyone can fly ? (probably, if you believe in parallel universes!)[/quote']

Dreaming... NO! Do not even open that can of worms. But therein does lie many answers. Next to air, water, and food, only sleep is a prerequisite of survival, and something that it's impossible to entirely evolve out of, despite being the single most dangerous undertaking that most animals willingly subject themselves to on a daily basis.

The scientific explanation for dreaming is totally fuckin laughable and downright contradictory. For instance, according to science, most (if not all) animals can (apparently as a function of their brains) create a fully immersive 3D virtual reality world complete with fully functioning virtual senses, and encompassing chaotic occurences, whilst they are UNCONCIOUS. Something that even the most mentally evolved species (humans?) fail to achieve whilst they are concious. Phew long sentence.

I wonder if animals have religions ?... how would we ever know ?

Religion is generally organised worship based on faith. It's not known for a bunch of animals to engage in organised faith based worship. Although it's not uncommon for pet dogs to worship the ground we walk on. Whether or not God exists is NOT a religious question. It's also a different question from "Do you believe in God". This thread is focusing more on the "Does God Exist?" subject.

My theory on man and his / her belief(s) is' date=' do what ever floats your boat, but don't expect everyone else to think the same as you...that will sadly never happen, as mankind is a greed, self centred waste of space (on the whole), yet, compassionate, loving and caring on the same hand...[/quote']

Actually I thought you were the one trying to convert me to some kind of God does not exist religion. Personally I am not religious, have no faith, do not apply the term belief lightly, and do not believe in God or science. But IMO the existence of God has a likelihood of better than 50%... provided that's OK with the thought police...

the thing about the big bang' date=' you are once again stating that it had to have happened for a reason, or some giant comsmic "man" ("him", I note you call "it"), that has to start things happening...why ?! "god is everywhere, everything, omnipotent"...so if he was, and god is love, why does all the bad stuff happen "to test us", thanks G....ever noticed it's the people who believe in "him" that get tested ... god is stupid, "he's" testing the wrong people.[/quote']

It appears you have confused: reason with cause; testing with spiritual development; pure love with pure nothingness; and omnipotence with not being manifested. Bad things happening is a weak and subjective argument for God not existing.

If there is an after life' date=' then (with your Kabala theory), heaven IS earth, as you get spat back into...so, heaven is not so great then, as hell must exsist within it to (as you've already stated, it's east kilbride !)...[/quote']

That is 'A' theory not 'MY' theory. The short version of the theory goes like this... before the big bang there was pure nothingness. God is unmanifest (not manifested) and therefore composed from pure nothingness. What was or wasn't there before the big bang is God. Whether or not God exists depends on your interpretation of nothingness. Nothingness is something we have a word for, but technically nothingness is non-existant. Just like God.

So (technically) GOD DOES NOT EXIST. All the *cough* scientists out there can sleep/die soundly. Especially James Randi. Can we park it there?