Guest Jake Wifebeater Posted July 11, 2004 Report Share Posted July 11, 2004 Inclusiveness? Yes' date=' I agree with you entirely. However, a belief in christianity contradicts this view. The bible is riddled with passages decrying homosexuality. It is extremely sexist, believing a woman of lesser worth than a man - that she should be subject to his wishes. You know, I'm astounded. The view I've expressed here is commonplace in the punk/hardcore community.[/quote']Spot on, well at least it's commonplace in the underground HC/punk community, which is where it belongs. I would no more accept Christian HC than those Nazi Skinhead bands, but wait a minute, HC is about inclusion so I guess we'd have to accept Nazis into it. For too many people, HC is just a fashion, a style of clothes, music and generally just another non-challenging subculture. Fuck that attitude. Beware of having "a mind so open anything can fall right in" - Magazine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medichi Posted July 11, 2004 Report Share Posted July 11, 2004 Spot on' date=' well at least it's commonplace in the underground HC/punk community, which is where it belongs. I would no more accept Christian HC than those Nazi Skinhead bands, but wait a minute, HC is about inclusion so I guess we'd have to accept Nazis into it. For too many people, HC is just a fashion, a style of clothes, music and generally just another non-challenging subculture. Fuck that attitude. Beware of having "a mind so open anything can fall right in" - Magazine.[/quote']Goddamnit! Haven't I just spent multiple posts arguing this point ALREADY!?! Did you ACTUALLY bother to read them? Jeez....Nazi skinhead bands DO exclude, discriminate and abuse sections of the community, so no, I wouldn't accept or listen to their music, nor accept them as truly "hardcore" - Norma Jean do none of the above....oh for fucks sake, I can't be arsed going through all ths again. Read my above posts. Bye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchPact Posted July 11, 2004 Report Share Posted July 11, 2004 I believe there is no place for christianity in hardcore/punk. A group such as Norma Jean who have been reported to give strong donations to Pro Life charities and groups go completely against what i believe hardcore to be about. There are a number of articles written on the topic the best I've found however is this one: http://www.plusminusrecords.com/hcpguide/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nikola Tesla Posted July 11, 2004 Report Share Posted July 11, 2004 A group such as Norma Jean who have been reported to give strong donations to Pro Life charities and groups go completely against what i believe hardcore to be about.Right ok. Ive read the entire document you posted Dave and i have to say I totaly agree with you that Christianity has little place in Hardcore. Although that might seem like im just hopping on a band waggon, i have very strong beliefs against christianity anyway and this document agreed with a lot of what i think. Although i still enjoy the norma jean cd, i bought it before i knew of their beliefs, and also by the time i found out this record was one of my favourite records. I personaly see through the beliefs, enjoy the music i own at the moment. Although the fact that they may have donated money to pro life charities puts into doubt my purchasing of their new mateiral. As i do not wish my money going towards such fuckign stupid causes. Right ok i dunno were that was going but hey its my opinions kinda stated (if anyone cares) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medichi Posted July 12, 2004 Report Share Posted July 12, 2004 A group such as Norma Jean who have been reported to give strong donations to Pro Life charities and groups go completely against what i believe hardcore to be about. See, that's a much better way to shut me up! However, I am kinda skeptical of these "reports", as they often pop up around any band that has its beliefs brought up.Good article though. I read it, but it does come across as extremely patronising to christians (they're just "wrong"), but I could see and agree with several points raised. However, Christianity (like Hardcore), has the ability to evolve, and so much of the argument was aimed at out-dated and extremist views (yes, I read that chapter too, but to compare selective belief of thousands of years of individual interpretations and revisions, not always done with the religion as the intended beneficiary, with "smoking and being straight edge, is preposterous!). I'd like to point out that I'm agnostic, at best, and my defence of Christians in Hardcore is coming from my view of Hardcore and unifying, not discriminating. I don't agree with the fundamental argument that the two cannot co-exist, or that one uniformly excludes the other. That said, Dave Rowlands is infinately more hardcore than me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nikola Tesla Posted July 12, 2004 Report Share Posted July 12, 2004 To take this thread back to its original point. I recently purchased the scarlet album as recomended, and i have to say it's an amazing record . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medichi Posted July 12, 2004 Report Share Posted July 12, 2004 I hear they're Wiccan. Cunts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Vis Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Although the fact that they may have donated money to pro life charities puts into doubt my purchasing of their new mateiral. As i do not wish my money going towards such fuckign stupid causes.In your race to be the most 'hardcore' of people, aren't you forgetting something?!Like the music itself?NJ have proved worthy of your attention but, oh shit, they have Christian influence. Better get a refund.I can understand that there are a million ideals behind hardcore but to forget the music in favour of being the perfect hardcore follower, is in my opinion, stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest allsystemsfail Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 In your race to be the most 'hardcore' of people' date=' aren't you forgetting something?!Like the music itself?NJ have proved worthy of your attention but, oh shit, they have Christian influence. Better get a refund.I can understand that there are a million ideals behind hardcore but to forget the music in favour of being the perfect hardcore follower, is in my opinion, stupid.[/quote']You cannot consider the punk/hardcore community without also considering its politics/values. It's about way more than just music. Those whose actions run contrary to its basic tenet, should indeed be questioned. Sure, the music is an important part, but the scene's ethics are as important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jake Wifebeater Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Goddamnit! Haven't I just spent multiple posts arguing this point ALREADY!?! Did you ACTUALLY bother to read them? Jeez....Nazi skinhead bands DO exclude' date=' discriminate and abuse sections of the community, so no, I wouldn't accept or listen to their music, nor accept them as truly "hardcore" - Norma Jean do none of the above....oh for fucks sake, I can't be arsed going through all ths again. Read my above posts. Bye.[/quote']Stay calm, yes, I did read your posts and I happen to disagree with you in some ways, although I accept your reasons for holding your views. I just get fed up of the way some people say it's all about the music and the ideals are secondary. By the way, I'm not saying that applies to you. Ok, peace? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medichi Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 *accepts hand of peace. goes to lie down...* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Afro Droid Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Do NJ sing about God and Jesus and the like? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nikola Tesla Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Do NJ sing about God and Jesus and the like?Theres a few referances to god within the lyrics sheet but no preaching, also those referances could have been in other non christian bands lyrics. Its just because i knew of their relgion i noticed it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest highroller Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 I think you have missed the point that vis said though and its valid...I dont know much about Norma Jean...they are one of those bands i havent heard much of and what I have heard I dont really like but...Do they sing about political and world issues? Correct me if im wrong but I dont think they do...as is the case with most bands nowadays that come under the "hardcore" banner. Surely this makes them exempt from allsytemsfail's point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Vis Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 You cannot consider the punk/hardcore community without also considering its politics/values. It's about way more than just music. Those whose actions run contrary to its basic tenet' date=' should indeed be questioned. Sure, the music is an important part, but the scene's ethics are as important.[/quote']True... I just don't agree with the insular attitude that if one has beliefs different to another they're not welcome.Can't see this going anywhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest allsystemsfail Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 I think you have missed the point that vis said though and its valid...I dont know much about Norma Jean...they are one of those bands i havent heard much of and what I have heard I dont really like but...Do they sing about political and world issues? Correct me if im wrong but I dont think they do...as is the case with most bands nowadays that come under the "hardcore" banner. Surely this makes them exempt from allsytemsfail's point?Whether a punk/hardcore outfit directly concerns themselves (via their songs) with politics, is irrelevant. However, there are beliefs that are central to this community - ones that cannot be escaped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest allsystemsfail Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 True... I just don't agree with the insular attitude that if one has beliefs different to another they're not welcome.Can't see this going anywhere.Insular? Not at all. However, as I've said, if an individual/band holds with beliefs contrary to those central to the punk/hardcore community - beliefs that make it what it is, then yes, they're not welcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaya Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 jeez what a stupid argument.doesn't really matter if christianity has no place in the hardcore "scene" as people have been quoting it,it has a place in society so it's relevant.am i a christian?no. that doesn't stop me from liking norma jean for what they are-one of the most exciting bands at the moment.fact is they're better than half the non-christian hardcore acts out there at the moment.they ain't enforcing their beliefs on anyone in their music so just enjoy the music for what it is.awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest allsystemsfail Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 jeez what a stupid argument.doesn't really matter if christianity has no place in the hardcore "scene" as people have been quoting it' date='it has a place in society so it's relevant.am i a christian?no. that doesn't stop me from liking norma jean for what they are-one of the most exciting bands at the moment.fact is they're better than half the non-christian hardcore acts out there at the moment.they ain't enforcing their beliefs on anyone in their music so just enjoy the music for what it is.awesome.[/quote']I think you've rather missed the point somewhat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psydoll Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 A lot of hardcore bands anyways have vocals that most people interpret as 'yat tatat yat yat yat tat yyraaaghh yraaaghhh ooooh' anyways so to the casual listener it makes no difference. Possibly a form of brainwashing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirkt Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 A lot of hardcore bands anyways have vocals that most people interpret as 'yat tatat yat yat yat tat yyraaaghh yraaaghhh ooooh' anyways so to the casual listener it makes no difference. Possibly a form of brainwashing?ha good point. i often walk down the street singin beecher to the words of "wah yargh wahhhhrghh". i get funny looks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Vis Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 Insular? Not at all. However' date=' as I've said, if an individual/band holds with beliefs contrary to those central to the punk/hardcore community - beliefs that make it what it is, then yes, they're not welcome.[/quote']There's something reminiscent of Hitler around here. Seriously.That's a horribly alienating and idealist approach.Show me the rule that states 'one must not follow'. Please.People need faith in something... what that 'faith' might be shouldn't matter. In a way, the unifying nature of hardcore should suggest to you that noone deserves to be oughted. If someone has an issue with higher authority, yet has some sort of faith, no matter how small, they deserve inclusion.But that's pretty idealistic too.Bottom line: if people find themselves drawn to hardcore for the right reasons, then there should be no problem. I'm sorry if I'm neglecting to see something here, but like I said, its incredibly insular to leave people out for something they have every right in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest allsystemsfail Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 There's something reminiscent of Hitler around here. Seriously.That's a horribly alienating and idealist approach.Show me the rule that states 'one must not follow'. Please.People need faith in something... what that 'faith' might be shouldn't matter. In a way' date=' the unifying nature of hardcore should suggest to you that noone deserves to be oughted. If someone has an issue with higher authority, yet has some sort of faith, no matter how small, they deserve inclusion.But that's pretty idealistic too.Bottom line: if people find themselves drawn to hardcore for the right reasons, then there should be no problem. I'm sorry if I'm neglecting to see something here, but like I said, its incredibly insular to leave people out for something they have every right in.[/quote']I said nothing of rules. I said only that the holding of a religious faith conflicts with those belierfs central to the punk/hardcore community. Unity? With those whose message is surrender. No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Vis Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 I don't think there's much more can be said here but...Beliefs are just that: beliefs.Everyone's got them. Everyone's entitled to them. As extreme as they may be, entitled they are.If people choose to follow something that gives them reason to live, and still enjoy HC, I don't think it's fair for anyone else to tell them differently.If you're gonna be completely upstanding about the whole thing then yeah, religion does contravene the general idea of HC. But life isn't so fucking black and white.Surrender?How about acceptance and compassion? Even if on the smallest of scales? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest allsystemsfail Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 I don't think there's much more can be said here but...Beliefs are just that: beliefs.Everyone's got them. Everyone's entitled to them. As extreme as they may be' date=' entitled they are.If people choose to follow something that gives them reason to live, and still enjoy HC, I don't think it's fair for anyone else to tell them differently.If you're gonna be completely upstanding about the whole thing then yeah, religion does contravene the general idea of HC. But life isn't so fucking black and white.Surrender?How about acceptance and compassion? Even if on the smallest of scales?[/quote']A surrender of one's will to a higher authority.Acceptance and compassion? Sure, I ain't got a problem with that, but I'm gonna stick with my original point. Anyway, as you've said, there probably isn't a great deal more to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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