Guest Posted March 4, 2004 Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 I'm getting where you're coming from now, Philip...*ponders* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Jack Posted March 4, 2004 Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 I don't think there are rules which apply to everybody as to 'when does sound become music'. When does a face become beautiful? Just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so music is in the ear of the um, behearer... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Philip Posted March 4, 2004 Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 Originally posted by Frosty Jack:I don't think there are rules which apply to everybody as to 'when does sound become music'. When does a face become beautiful? Just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so music is in the ear of the um, behearer... But music happens without human involvement, so if we were to be extinct, music would still live on, birdsong etc! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundian Posted March 4, 2004 Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 Ok how about woodpeckers, do they produce music when they hammer against trees. I would say no, because they have no intent to produce music, they're just looking for a piece of food. You may perceive it as music but that's only your brain trying to rationalise sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spellchecker Posted March 4, 2004 Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 i was going to say that music is when your interpretation of changing air pressure provokes an emotional response. but then, i wouldn't call listening to a couple of neds fist fighting 'musical'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Philip Posted March 4, 2004 Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 Originally posted by soundian:Ok how about woodpeckers, do they produce music when they hammer against trees. I would say no, because they have no intent to produce music, they're just looking for a piece of food. You may perceive it as music but that's only your brain trying to rationalise sound. ... or maybe you/we are failing to hear it as music, that it is music, but dont acknowledge it as such because of human rationalising of what music is!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundian Posted March 4, 2004 Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 Originally posted by spellchecker:i was going to say that music is when your interpretation of changing air pressure provokes an emotional response. but then, i wouldn't call listening to a couple of neds fist fighting 'musical'. Philip might, it fits his definition. If all noise can be perceived as music, why do we (and I'd be prepared to bet most other languages do as well) differentiate between the two? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Philip Posted March 4, 2004 Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 Originally posted by soundian:Philip might, it fits his definition. If all noise can be perceived as music, why do we (and I'd be prepared to bet most other languages do as well) differentiate between the two? These are only thoughts/ideas on what I think music is or might be, I'm not saying they are in anyway right or definitive!Perhaps we shouldn't differentiate between the two, they may be the same thing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Jack Posted March 4, 2004 Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 But you're trying to define music as a concrete object, when it's not, it's an attribute that we choose to give to a sound. Sounds don't make music, your brain makes music from sounds. If I consider any particular sound to be music, then by definition it becomes music. Maybe it is only music to me, but that still holds. Just as to me, Bon Accord baths are freezing cold, but to a penguin they're not. Attributes like that can only be defined in terms of the perceptor.We're veering rather close to the old 'tree falling in the forest with no-one around' territory here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundian Posted March 4, 2004 Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 Originally posted by Philip:These are only thoughts/ideas on what I think music is or might be, I'm not saying they are in anyway right or definitive!Perhaps we shouldn't differentiate between the two, they may be the same thing! If you found one language in the world which doesn't have a seperate word for music I would consider that a possibility. If there's no need for the words sound or noise, because everything is music, then at least one culture/language should have noticed it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Philip Posted March 4, 2004 Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 Originally posted by Frosty Jack:But you're trying to define music as a concrete object, when it's not, it's an attribute that we choose to give to a sound. Sounds don't make music, your brain makes music from sounds. If I consider any particular sound to be music, then by definition it becomes music. Maybe it is only music to me, but that still holds. Just as to me, Bon Accord baths are freezing cold, but to a penguin they're not. Attributes like that can only be defined in terms of the perceptor.We're veering rather close to the old 'tree falling in the forest with no-one around' territory here. So a human's perception of sound defines whether it is music or not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Jack Posted March 4, 2004 Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 Originally posted by Philip:So a human's perception of sound defines whether it is music or not? *finger/nose pointy thing* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundian Posted March 4, 2004 Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 Do you think 'that's like music' or 'that's music'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Philip Posted March 4, 2004 Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 Originally posted by Frosty Jack:*finger/nose pointy thing* But some humans fail to hear an intentional musical sound as music! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spellchecker Posted March 4, 2004 Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 Originally posted by soundian:Do you think 'that's like music' or 'that's music'? definitely "that's music", because we are trying to define music. in saying "that's like music", we are comparing to a definition of music we have not yet established, and hence not identifying, clarifying or defining anything whatsoever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundian Posted March 4, 2004 Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 Originally posted by Philip:But some humans fail to hear an intentional musical sound as music! But that doesn't mean every unintentional sound is music and we're just not getting it. Music is a word made up by humans, the very fact that it exists implies there is a difference, there is a point when every sane person on the planet will draw the line between the two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Philip Posted March 4, 2004 Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 Originally posted by soundian:But that doesn't mean every unintentional sound is music and we're just not getting it. Music is a word made up by humans, the very fact that it exists implies there is a difference, there is a point when every sane person on the planet will draw the line between the two. This is what I'm beginning to think now though, sound/silence/music they are the same thing, but it happens via different ways, ie: intentional, unintentional, natural!It's happening all the time, all around us and within us! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundian Posted March 4, 2004 Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 Originally posted by Philip:If you can, throw open your window and take a listen to what's happening outside, various sounds and silences - natural music? No, random sounds. I consider music an art and art has to be created. If someone was directing the flow of traffic and the different engine noises, the seagulls, the kids shouting, I would consider it art, but not music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Philip Posted March 4, 2004 Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 Originally posted by soundian:No, random sounds. I consider music an art and art has to be created. If someone was directing the flow of traffic and the different engine noises, the seagulls, the kids shouting, I would consider it art, but not music. Fair enough!hehe, say it is GOD(if there is such a thing) that is directing everything though, but we just dont realise it?Just a thought.Who knows? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundian Posted March 4, 2004 Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 Originally posted by Philip:Fair enough!hehe, say it is GOD(if there is such a thing) that is conducting everything though, but we just dont realise it?Just a thought.Who knows? Well, if there is, s/he also gave us the two words noise and music. Therefore there must be a difference. They're omniscient you know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Philip Posted March 4, 2004 Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 Just to make the pot boil a little more as it were, I opened my window and listened to the various random sounds, I heard/perceived them to be the music of life, it was and still is quite beautiful! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Jack Posted March 4, 2004 Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 Originally posted by Philip:Just to make the pot boil a little more as it were, I opened my window and listened to the various random sounds, I heard/perceived them to be the music of life, it was and still is quite beautiful! such a flowerchild, aren't you?I'm off to dig out my copy of "Teacup Smash Party Megamix Vol II"... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Philip Posted March 4, 2004 Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 Originally posted by Frosty Jack:such a flowerchild, aren't you?I'm off to dig out my copy of "Teacup Smash Party Megamix Vol II"... hehe... Moi?"Teacup Smash Party Megamix Vol II" can I have a copy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragudave Posted March 4, 2004 Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 Originally posted by Philip:Just to make the pot boil a little more as it were, I opened my window and listened to the various random sounds, I heard/perceived them to be the music of life, it was and still is quite beautiful! Well this is exactly how one Brian Eno discovered / invented ambient music. He was ill in bed with the window open and he heard music from outside as well as the radio he had on in the room...FWIW music cant really be defined. If your Gran listened to Melt Banana, Mogwai or The Boredoms or MBValentine they she would just classify it as noise. Hearing Faust or very early Kraftwerk may sound tuneless or just random noise the first time you hear it. Steve Reich, Philip Glass and other minimalistic composers used intense repetition, looping, clapping etc to make music. Paul Lansky and various other modern composers use traffic samples etc to make music. Ancient tribes make music by hitting whatever was neat to them or their voices.Music like art is constantly evolving. Thank goodness....Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben AWOL Posted March 4, 2004 Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 Excellent thread monsieur. It is down to perception mostly but it is also a gift to humans - like many things in this life, which often become overlooked. Let the great mystery prevail and recognise that it is undefinable - but to question is also necessary.If when we were young we were told that the sound of fingernails on the blackboard and various other "harsh" sounds were musical what would happen as we grew up? Would we develop a more rounded and adventurous musical outlook. Maybe it's too extreme an example. I've done various musical workshops with primary school children. I've played them evrything from Squarepusher to John Coltrane. When they heard Coltrane they were immediately moving to it - they recognised it as "music"? When I asked what they thought one said it sounds like a bunch of people who don't know how to play their instruments. Another said it sounded like monkeys playing in a room! I was interested by the difference in the physical reaction and the intellectual reaction to the music...sorry sound - erm..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.