The cost of the war in Iraq

[Hog]

blah' date=' blah, blah, blah, war, blah.

It happened, get over it.

At least the people of Iraq have basic human rights now and can at least vote.[/quote']

Well, the voting system does not help the dead people.

we used to get that here to, they were called the I.R.A and although technically not suicide bombers, try telling the irish it was any different.

Just over 3000 people died because of the Anglo/Irish conflict over decades. This is a drop in the ocean compared the situation in Iraq.

Also..... check out this article.

VERY BAD FOR IRAQI CIVILIANS

The researchers blamed air strikes for many of the deaths.

"What we have evidence of is the use of air power in populated urban areas and the bad consequences of it," Roberts said.

Gilbert Burnham, who collaborated on the research, said U.S. military action in Iraq was "very bad for Iraqi civilians."

"We were not expecting the level of deaths from violence that we found in this study and we hope this will lead to some serious discussions of how military and political aims can be achieved in a way that is not so detrimental to civilians populations," he told Reuters in an interview.

The researchers did 33 cluster surveys of 30 households each, recording the date, circumstances and cause of deaths.

They found that the risk of death from violence in the period after the invasion was 58 times higher than before the war.

Before the war the major causes of death were heart attacks, chronic disorders and accidents. That changed after the war.

Two-thirds of violent deaths in the study were reported in Falluja, the insurgent held city 50 km (32 miles) west of Baghdad which had been repeatedly hit by U.S. air strikes.

"Our results need further verification and should lead to changes to reduce non-combatant deaths from air strikes," Roberts added in the study.

Richard Horton, editor of The Lancet, said the research which was submitted to the journal earlier this month had been peer-reviewed, edited and fast-tracked for publication because of its importance in the evolving security situation in Iraq.

"But these findings also raise questions for those far removed from Iraq -- in the governments of the countries responsible for launching a pre-emptive war," Horton said in an editorial.

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[Guest Bob]

there were no weapons of mass destruction. the whole premise for war was based on a lie. it's illegal to go to war with the objective of regime change

I hate the idea that wars have to be "legal". What a lot of pish! Wars by their very nature should be totally illegal full stop. Killing people is wrong whatever the reason - I really don't care what intellectual wank covers our animal instincts and motives. I mean, really, what the fuck does it matter if some lawyer says "Yeah, okay, this war is totally legal!"? It's fucking shite either way.

"it's illegal to go to war with the objective of regime change"

I'm sure Saddam will be pleading that case quite beautifully in court.

But hey, no-one is listening cos his regime was changed. Tough luck shithead!

[Guest Bob]

Well' date=' the voting system does not help the dead people.[/quote']

Yeah, but really, how much do they ACTUALLY care? They're dead.

I say protect the WEST. We're bastards, but we're my kind of brand of bastards.

[Hog]

Yeah' date=' but really, how much do they ACTUALLY care? They're dead.

I say protect the WEST. We're bastards, but we're my kind of brand of bastards.[/quote']

This war was sponsored by Nike and Coca Cola

[Guest Bob]

This war was sponsored by Nike and Coca Cola

A Nike spokesman said "A free Iraq is good for the free world, the people of Iraq and our sweatshop expansion programme".

[Moshulu Rob]

Yeah' date=' but really, how much do they ACTUALLY care? They're dead.

I say protect the WEST. We're bastards, but we're my kind of brand of bastards.[/quote']

I think you will find that their Mums, Dads, Sisters, Husbands, Wives, Sons and Daughters who are still alive care.

Which is where the whole next generation of terrorism will come from. Protecting the west is probably easier to accomplish if you look at the reasons why people hate us, rather than just trying to bomb them all into submission, History shows that that is not usually the best way of accomplishing a safe and peaceful world.

[Alkaline]

I think you will find that their Mums' date=' Dads, Sisters, Husbands, Wives, Sons and Daughters who are still alive care.

Which is where the whole next generation of terrorism will come from. Protecting the west is probably easier to accomplish if you look at the reasons why people hate us, rather than just trying to bomb them all into submission, History shows that that is not usually the best way of accomplishing a safe and peaceful world.[/quote']

At the end of the day the world is always gonna be filled with wars and squabbles because by nature humans are greedy and intolerent. The sooner you grow up and realise that the better. A bunch of moaning cunts complaining about the reasons why a war happened is not gonna change the world. The only thing that will would be to rid the world of the human race.

Get over it!!!!

[Hog]

At the end of the day the world is always gonna be filled with wars and squabbles because by nature humans are greedy and intolerent. The sooner you grow up and realise that the better. A bunch of moaning cunts complaining about the reasons why a war happened is not gonna change the world. The only thing that will would be to rid the world of the human race.

Get over it!!!!

Of course wars happen' date=' although I dont think Moshulu Rob is trying to change the world, just airing his opinion on a forum.

The only thing that will would be to rid the world of the human race.

What on earth are you trying to say?

[Guest Zeenat Aman]

What on earth are you trying to say?

I think he means peace on earth will only come about once the human race is no more.

[Farmerjoline]

The war was unnecessary. Getting rid of Saddam was a good thing to do but it was done in the wrong way. Love Saddam or hate him, I personally didn't like him much, he kept the country reasonably stable. Saddam also helped keep the surrounding area quite stable.

The war was based on lies and I was against it from the start but if they had told the truth I would have been a little more supportive of it. The war was about international trade, not specifically oil.

Since going to war petrol prices have risen in this country and in others like the united states and Australia. Import and Export prices have gone up and a lot of common everyday items have gone up in price.

I think in the future we will need to cut imports and become a lot more self sufficient to stand any chance of retaining this relatively stable country.

Deep down I think that the IRA posed and possibly still pose a bigger threat to Great Britain than Osama Bin Laden and Al Queda, this is assuming Osama is not dead and that he actually existed.

War, love or hate it is part of human nature, it has been happenning for thousands of years on an ever increasing scale. War will not totally cease until there are no humans left.

[Moshulu Rob]

At the end of the day the world is always gonna be filled with wars and squabbles because by nature humans are greedy and intolerent. The sooner you grow up and realise that the better. A bunch of moaning cunts complaining about the reasons why a war happened is not gonna change the world. The only thing that will would be to rid the world of the human race.

Get over it!!!!

Yeah and Black people will never get to sit on the front of a bus, Slavery will never be abolished, we'll never have free healthcare for all, and Women will never get to vote either.

Get over it!!!!

[Alkaline]

Yeah and Black people will never get to sit on the front of a bus' date=' Slavery will never be abolished, we'll never have free healthcare for all, and Women will never get to vote either.

Get over it!!!![/quote']

For someone so old, you are pretty niave(sp), all these things still exist in one way or another. there is still sexism, racism and slavery all over the world and even on this fair isle. and not everyone gets free healthcare what the fuck do you think you pay national insurance and taxes for you pillock.

All the things you mentioned above are parts of human nature and will never completely cease to exist.

Anyway, i'm bored of this arguement, get off your moral high horse and as long as you can say you've lived your life in a just and true manor the world is one good person better off.

[Moshulu Rob]

For someone so old, you are pretty niave(sp)

Ouch that stings, I'm 27. And you're spelling is just fine

all these things still exist in one way or another. there is still sexism, racism and slavery all over the world and even on this fair isle.

Yes there is, but even you with your Jaded view of the world can't argue that things are not much better now than they were, due directly to people who care getting off the arses and doing something about it, instead of just whining that 'nothing will ever change, whats the point, I might as just sit here and scratch my balls all day'.

and not everyone gets free healthcare what the fuck do you think you pay national insurance and taxes for you pillock.

What you mean the Nurses and Doctors get Paid? Of course I know that taxes are used to pay for the NHS, the point I was trying to make you pedantic cunt, is that it's Free at the point of delivery (mostly) this means that when you manage to seriously injure yourself, you are going to get it fixed free of charge at that time. Paid for by people who pay more in tax than you do.

Newsflash - It wasn't always like this, and still isn't in the vast majority of countries, America for example. I was using this as an example of a way in which people who cared about an issue got something accomplished, rather than just whining that 'nothing will ever change so whats the point'.

All the things you mentioned above are parts of human nature and will never completely cease to exist.

Yes, but you can either try and be part of the soloution or part of the apathetic masses that accomplish nothing, all the while bending over and taking it like a good little drone.

Anyway, i'm bored of this arguement, get off your moral high horse and as long as you can say you've lived your life in a just and true manor the world is one good person better off.

I fail to see how a hope that over time, and slowly but surely, one step at a time, things will get better puts me on a moral high horse.

[Moshulu Rob]

anti-bush=ant american=people who fundamentally fund your club dipshit

An interesting concept. But if whoever left me this comment could try and explain there reasoning I'd be interested to see it.

Personally I don't see the connection between thinking that the war in Iraq is a monumental waste of money and human life makes me anti american. And further more is an attack on 'the people who fund my club'

But anyway, the dipshit part hit right home.

[Alkaline]

For someone so old' date=' you are pretty niave(sp)[/b']

Ouch that stings, I'm 27. And you're spelling is just fine

all these things still exist in one way or another. there is still sexism, racism and slavery all over the world and even on this fair isle.

Yes there is, but even you with your Jaded view of the world can't argue that things are not much better now than they were, due directly to people who care getting off the arses and doing something about it, instead of just whining that 'nothing will ever change, whats the point, I might as just sit here and scratch my balls all day'.

and not everyone gets free healthcare what the fuck do you think you pay national insurance and taxes for you pillock.

What you mean the Nurses and Doctors get Paid? Of course I know that taxes are used to pay for the NHS, the point I was trying to make you pedantic cunt, is that it's Free at the point of delivery (mostly) this means that when you manage to seriously injure yourself, you are going to get it fixed free of charge at that time. Paid for by people who pay more in tax than you do.

Newsflash - It wasn't always like this, and still isn't in the vast majority of countries, America for example. I was using this as an example of a way in which people who cared about an issue got something accomplished, rather than just whining that 'nothing will ever change so whats the point'.

All the things you mentioned above are parts of human nature and will never completely cease to exist.

Yes, but you can either try and be part of the soloution or part of the apathetic masses that accomplish nothing, all the while bending over and taking it like a good little drone.

Anyway, i'm bored of this arguement, get off your moral high horse and as long as you can say you've lived your life in a just and true manor the world is one good person better off.

I fail to see how a hope that over time, and slowly but surely, one step at a time, things will get better puts me on a moral high horse.

Grass Roots, you, me and everyone else are those first steps, if everyone lived life to the fullest and treated each other with respect and kindness then there would be a lot less hurt and suffering in the world. it's mightily unfortunate that good people have to suffer under the guidance of dictators like Hussein and Mugabe and i only hope that people in time will se that it was a good thing to rid iraq of hussein, even the majority of iraqis can see this regardless of the suicide bombings. until you've spoken to anyone of iraqi backround who's families were affected by husseins dictatorship you won't know exactly how bad it was for some people, there are a lot of things that go un-noticed in things like that.

My objection was to your initial post really, we can't change past mistakes, we can only look to bettering the future.

[Hog]

I dont doubt for a minute that Saddam was/is an evil bastard Alkaline but recent surveys do point out that Iraq civilians, in general, are 58 times more likely to die from violence compared to before the war.

[Stripey]

I dont doubt for a minute that Saddam was/is an evil bastard Alkaline but recent surveys do point out that Iraq civilians' date=' in general, are 58 times more likely to die from violence compared to before the war.[/quote']

If you adjust the figures for population differences, the amount of people in iraq dying weekly is roughly equivalent to 2000 people being killed every week here in the UK. food for thought eh.

[Cloud]

Deep down I think that the IRA posed and possibly still pose a bigger threat to Great Britain than Osama Bin Laden and Al Queda' date=' this is assuming Osama is not dead and that he actually existed.[/quote']

The IRA is finished - Omagh deeply split the republican community, and the fact that the finger was firmly pointed at them by not only the Chief Constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland, but that Ahern also pointed the finger goes to show that they're a spent force. Sinn Fein are electorally a force - but Adams has successfully steered the party towards peace, something he isn't given enough credit for.

One critical thing is different now than it was even 15 years ago - the IRA no longer have the support of the Irish authorities. Before, different story - but now that the army is no longer dominating peoples lives, the mood has changed.

Having said that, the future stability of Northern Ireland has to be questioned due to the inevitability of a Catholic majority - along with the provision in the Belfast Agreement that the people of Northern Ireland have the right to self determination, it makes me suspect that civil war might just erupt again on the streets - look at the voting figures, a very clear message is being sent out about what the Unionist and Nationalist communities want.

[Hog]

If you adjust the figures for population differences' date=' the amount of people in iraq dying weekly is roughly equivalent to 2000 people being killed every week here in the UK. food for thought eh.[/quote']

That is a very good point Gridlock.

I wonder how the US would react if they had a 9/11 type attack every couple of weeks

[Guest Zeenat Aman]

That is a very good point Gridlock.

I wonder how the US would react if they had a 9/11 type attack every couple of weeks

Simple, world war three would begin.

[Guest Neubeatz]

Originally Posted by Hog

That is a very good point Gridlock.

I wonder how the US would react if they had a 9/11 type attack every couple of weeks

orginally posted by Zenat

Simple, world war three would begin.

Right.......

Dont tell AQ, they think they have taken the lead already.....

[Guest Jake Wifebeater]

War' date=' love or hate it is part of human nature, it has been happenning for thousands of years on an ever increasing scale. War will not totally cease until there are no humans left.[/quote']

I've never subscribed to the idea that war is part of human nature. That's a cop-out. It isn't in my nature to go to war, I hope it's not in yours. Saying it's part of human nature means you can just shrug your shoulders and say "Oh, well", all the while believing there's nothing you or anyone else can do about it. There is.

[Farmerjoline]

I've never subscribed to the idea that war is part of human nature. That's a cop-out. It isn't in my nature to go to war' date=' I hope it's not in yours. Saying it's part of human nature means you can just shrug your shoulders and say "Oh, well", all the while believing there's nothing you or anyone else can do about it. There is.[/quote']

I should have made it a bit clearer, fighting is human nature, most species of animal fight too, war is fighting. I was bit vague.