prof_lofi Posted December 3, 2004 Report Share Posted December 3, 2004 things that are good about music theory:it gives you names for things...that helps because now you can sort things out, chords, scales, progressions, forms, etc...80 % of it is vocabulary, the other 20 % is syntax.it can get you out of a rut...instead of playing by rote, you can use your knowledge to try something your fingers/ears wouldn't usually do.you can communicate with other musicians intelligently, and your music can be read/played by others.things that are bad about music theory:it can make you think there is only one correct way to write music...you can get too obsessed with 'writing by the numbers' or using really interesting theory that actually comes out sounding really contrived...it can block creativity if you always start with theory first....what i've found:study your ass off, learn everything you can, do the exercises, and when it comes to writing music, forget that you know anything and just write...that saying about learn all the rules and then forget about them means just that...once you've mastered them, they're in you, it becomes instinctive and you should just use what has sunk in...now when you 'break a rule' you know why, you are making a decision not just playing what placates the ears....at least that's how it's been for me...(of course most people don't consider what i do to be 'music' ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Zeenat Aman Posted December 3, 2004 Report Share Posted December 3, 2004 Good post prof!Just like anything in life, there are positive and negative sides, with music theory, I think it's down to the individual to take what works for them and use it as they wish in the music they write/perform... or to not use it, knowingly, at all. things that are good about music theory:it gives you names for things...that helps because now you can sort things out' date=' chords, scales, progressions, forms, etc...80 % of it is vocabulary, the other 20 % is syntax.it can get you out of a rut...instead of playing by rote, you can use your knowledge to try something your fingers/ears wouldn't usually do.you can communicate with other musicians intelligently, and your music can be read/played by others.things that are bad about music theory:it can make you think there is only one correct way to write music...you can get too obsessed with 'writing by the numbers' or using really interesting theory that actually comes out sounding really contrived...it can block creativity if you always start with theory first....what i've found:study your ass off, learn everything you can, do the exercises, and when it comes to writing music, forget that you know anything and just write...that saying about learn all the rules and then forget about them means just that...once you've mastered them, they're in you, it becomes instinctive and you should just use what has sunk in...now when you 'break a rule' you know why, you are making a decision not just playing what placates the ears....at least that's how it's been for me...(of course most people don't consider what i do to be 'music' )[/quote'] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bryn Posted December 5, 2004 Report Share Posted December 5, 2004 let us think about music as a language for a minute. It would be very hard to try and learn the english language by working from nothing else but yourself' date=' but from being around your family and freinds you pick up the language. WHen your very young its likely you imitate your mum or dad but as you grow older the more things you hear the wider a vocabluary you have and you can pick and choose things to find your own voice.[/quote']This is where language is actually totally different to music: You replicate your parents words. fine. you replicate your parents accents. fine. Unlike music, with language you aren't encouraged to be creative and original (hence people are able to understand one another), and everyone around here sound like fairmers. The bit about 'choosing your own voice on the basis of our peers etc' - Is that you admitting to copying whatever your mates say? When I'm inspired by something, I usually create something totally different. Its like the Herbie Hancock track 'Sly' dedicated to and inspired by sly stone, yet sounding nothing like anything by sly and the family stone. If anything, I learned Nirvana songs for the first 6 months of my guitar playing life, and that was a good 5 years ago, and I'm pretty sure I sound fuck all like Kurt Cobain! I mustve learned about 4 songs since then but usually half arsedly when chalmers mckay forced me too. It would be very hard to try and learn the english language by working from nothing else but yourselfRemember we're talking about a piece of wood with strings here no-one has to actually understand what youre playing. Were not stuffy musical snobs twatting on about how there is something more to the soundwaves we create, it either sounds good or it doesnt generally reworked Kirk Hammet cats dont.Anyway, all I'm saying is that I dont think it a good idea to learn other peoples music too closely when trying to have an original style; whereas with language where we copy one another: pressure to fit in etc. Listen and be inspired by your favourite artists, but dont replicate them (unless you're really really really shit at guitar ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bryn Posted December 5, 2004 Report Share Posted December 5, 2004 i never said anything about copying or replicating other peoples styles. how do you know if your sound is original if you`ve never played someone elses style? arent all the best martial artists those ones who know a few different techniques? arent the best(?!) musicians those who can adapt themselves to numerous different styles?? how can you believe that by NOT playing other peoples musical styles you are automatically original yourself????? seems a bit silly to me....my 2 centsI totally disagree with this. This is the route to being a boring player.how do you know if your sound is original if you`ve never played someone elses style? You have ears' date=' you listen to music, you shouldn't need to copy it. Simple as that.how can you believe that by NOT playing other peoples musical styles you are automatically original yourself????? I find it harder to believe how by playing other peoples music you think you will be original. You arent 'automatically original' - I'm sure there is a miniscule chance you could sound like someone else. But its, how you say, extremely unlikely, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prof_lofi Posted December 5, 2004 Report Share Posted December 5, 2004 i don't know bryn, i hear what you're saying and it logically makes sense..but every great guitarist/musician that i've studied has started off totally mastering someone else's style/music before becoming innovative and becoming known as the 'great' that they were...hendrix played the blues circuit as a session guitarist, clapton and page did the same, on wes montgomery's first gig he just played note for note copies of charlie christian solos he'd learned by rote, stevie ray vaughn totally mastered albert king's sound, george benson mastered grant greens licks and just played them faster, the stones learned the blues first, van hallen was a cover band before they 'made' it, coltrane learned parker, miles learned armstrong, bach learned vivaldi, beethoven learned cpe bach...in every style, there seems to be a lineage of influence where each person takes it further, or makes it their own but after they know the terrain...i think there's something about learning and mastering someone's style to get to their musical level, and then taking it even further and/or making it your own...i think, and this is just my experience with 'normal' music, that trying to be original by not learning/studying other music can really slow you down...it's kinda like solving problems that others have already done for you, or reinventing the wheel...just my experience anyway... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prof_lofi Posted December 5, 2004 Report Share Posted December 5, 2004 Good post prof!Just like anything in life' date=' there are positive and negative sides, with music theory, I think it's down to the individual to take what works for them and use it as they wish in the music they write/perform... or to not use it, knowingly, at all.[/quote']thanx cat food...i agree totally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmygoodein Posted December 5, 2004 Report Share Posted December 5, 2004 Remember we're talking about a piece of wood with strings here no-one has to actually understand what youre playing. but surely the main goal is for every one to be able to understand and connect with your music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted December 5, 2004 Report Share Posted December 5, 2004 Sorry for butting in but I have greatly enjoyed this discussion.Lets be honest, if you could be a musical genius and know all there is to know, you would do it..and you'de get laid everynight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bryn Posted December 5, 2004 Report Share Posted December 5, 2004 but surely the main goal is for every one to be able to understand and connect with your music.Yes, but thats no reason to play safe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bryn Posted December 5, 2004 Report Share Posted December 5, 2004 prof lofi - can I just ask, how did you learn your theory? was it a purely solo disciplined effort or did you goto college / uni or something?Just interested, been looking at composition courses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imprinted Posted December 5, 2004 Report Share Posted December 5, 2004 thought you just said that theory was unimportant bryn - so why on earth would you want to go to college to learn how to do it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prof_lofi Posted December 5, 2004 Report Share Posted December 5, 2004 hey bryn,i have a masters in music composition, so i'm pretty much a huge nerd i had a great guitar teacher at college that structured all of his lessons sort of 'through' theory...so instead of the standard, let's learn this song/this lick approach, he made me learn three and four note chords and all their various voicings and inversions (an inversion is just the same chord but with a different note of the chord on the bottom other than the 'root', like the 3rd or 5th) up and down the neck, on every string set and diagonally...it was brutal (lol)...same for scales and arpeggios...but it was good, because when i took theory at uni, it was alot easier for me due to him. i do think that someone could learn this stuff by themselves, but it's just really tedious outside of a classroom or lesson environment...just because, well, it is it's sort of like learning computer programming...there are guys who can just work their way through a book and learn to program in 6 months by themselves...and then there's guys like me...who buy the damn $400 program and twiddle around with it until eventually a class comes around so i can pay another $400 to have someone make me learn it...and like catfood said, it's all relative...in uni, the theory you learn has more to do with the 'common practice era' i.e. what most people call 'classical' music...you can use it of course, but the whole perspective that it's taught from is through classical music, because that's where it's derived...so you have to take what you can from it and leave the rest for another day...for rock/blues/punk etc...another way is to study jazz, which for theory and from a rock musician's point of view is awesome, because those guys basically took standard 'common practice era' theory and hotwired the hell out of it! they figured out everyway to twist this and that idea/rule etc and so much of the music is just based on playing, that it's all very practical...so even if you don't want to be a jazz player, if you understand theory from a jazz perspective, it really opens up lots of options musically no matter what type of music you play.b. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmygoodein Posted December 5, 2004 Report Share Posted December 5, 2004 hey prof, where did you learn jazz theory. my teacher is working through the classical theory grades but we havent encountered jazz theory yet, does it appear in the grades or does it come from somewhere else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prof_lofi Posted December 5, 2004 Report Share Posted December 5, 2004 hey prof' date=' where did you learn jazz theory. my teacher is working through the classical theory grades but we havent encountered jazz theory yet, does it appear in the grades or does it come from somewhere else?[/quote'] ah, i'm pretty sure it's not covered in your system ie grade 1-8 theory...at least in the states, you have to take it as a separate class and often it's not even offered...i was just lucky to have good guitar tutors and then i went to a 'jazz' university...but it's very similar to regular theory, just applied and with some different names for things...like, for improv, jazz players often think in modes, which is covered in traditional theory but just not exploited as much...so, when you have chords of a key ii, V, I...often a jazz player will play dorian for the ii chord, mixolydian for the V, and ionian for the I...or he/she may just play 'in the key' and play dorian over all of it, or, he may play just off of chord tones of each chord (arpeggio)..so it's all the same stuff, but since jazz is so much about improv and applying theory on the spot, it's really geared for practical use etc....it's just like rock, where you're using the blues scale or pentatonic scale, but more advanced...now you learn how to use more complex scales/chords/substitutions etc...i don't know if anyone on the list remembers the band 'helmet' (i think they just came out with another cd recently) those guys were all big jazz-theory-heads, they just applied it to metal instead of jazz...even metalica and all the 'metal' bands use lots of traditional theory...that's where all the 'classical' sounding riffs come from...i much prefer helmet's use though to metallica's...the best book i've got about jazz theory is called 'the jazz theory book' by mark levine..it's really comprehensive..the other one is by 'scott reeves' and i think it's called 'improvisation' (this one requires you to be able or at least willing to read music though)...these are books that you really CAN work though on your own and apply (of course nothing beats doing it with other musicians)...but a little jazz theory goes a long way since it's meant to be practical etc...where are you studying? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh_Jazz Posted December 6, 2004 Report Share Posted December 6, 2004 Drummers often say that practicing along to a metronome makes them sound too "mechanical". This is a similarly flawed argument to the one about musical theory being unimportant. Musical theory wont make you more creative, but it will HELP you become more creative......knowledge is power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prof_lofi Posted December 6, 2004 Report Share Posted December 6, 2004 Musical theory wont make you more creative' date=' but it will HELP you become more creative......knowledge is power.[/quote']i agree...and theory is dry, it's just information...the creativity is what you do with it, how you apply it, etc... it gives you choices, makes you aware of options...usually when i learn something new and try to apply right off, or incorporate one of the exercises or whatever, it does sound a little rigid, or stale..academic, whatever, but later after i move on...and i use that same bit of information, but more intuitively, it comes out much better...but i wouldn't have been able to do that if i didn't learn the information in the first place... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest davetherave Posted December 6, 2004 Report Share Posted December 6, 2004 hendrix played the blues circuit as a session guitarist' date=' clapton and page did the same, on wes montgomery's first gig he just played note for note copies of charlie christian solos he'd learned by rote, stevie ray vaughn totally mastered albert king's sound, george benson mastered grant greens licks and just played them faster, the stones learned the blues first, van hallen was a cover band before they 'made' it, coltrane learned parker, miles learned armstrong, bach learned vivaldi, beethoven learned cpe bach...in every style, there seems to be a lineage of influence where each person takes it further, or makes it their own but after they know the terrain...QUOTE']Good comment Bill, and there's me thinking you would be purely Glass/Reich influenced ;o) Personally I think there have been some innovators, e.g. Brian Eno/Robert Fripp with soundscapes, Adrian Belew doesnt sound like anyone else, but if I dug deep enough I'm sure they would have been influenced by someone? This has sure been an interesting discussion. Totally different thread Bill, when am I getting my gig at the Uni ;o) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prof_lofi Posted December 6, 2004 Report Share Posted December 6, 2004 hey dave,you're on in february...january we're having the field recoding (phonography concert) with submissions from all over the uk, then back to the live experimental shows after that...we didn't try to do one in december due to the holidays and busy schedules...and i think belew was actually in a beatles cover band and i know he played with zappa like so many guitar greats (steve vai and others...) now zappa...there was an orginal! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest davetherave Posted December 6, 2004 Report Share Posted December 6, 2004 Cheers Bill, I look forward to the gig. I forgot to mention the great man himself, Sheik Yerbooti is one of my fav CDs, of course I'm biased because it has Zappa and Belew playing on it ;o) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bryn Posted December 9, 2004 Report Share Posted December 9, 2004 zappa Hehe, good stuff there. I can see me following a similar route through the college / uni system. Were you at aberdeen college? Who was your guitar tutor there if so? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prof_lofi Posted December 9, 2004 Report Share Posted December 9, 2004 . Were you at aberdeen college? Who was your guitar tutor there if so?no' date=' i did all my studying in the states (just got to the uk 6 months ago, and aberdeen 2 months ago)...i'm not sure who in town teaches in a similar method but i'm sure with all the music stores in town there's some decent teachers. the stuff my tutor taught me was fairly different than most though..i think that it was very influenced by ted greene, mick goodrick, mike stern...even pat metheny used this method (though i don't care for his tone) my tutors studied with a guy named jack petterson who is pretty well known amoungst jazz guitarists in the states..sort of a musician's musician type)...they had me doing lots of playing up and down one string...and really trying to understand the fretboard...neither one of them were really big on chops or flashy technique...just being musical and knowing what you were doing...b.[url']www.billthompson.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bryn Posted December 9, 2004 Report Share Posted December 9, 2004 thought you just said that theory was unimportant bryn - so why on earth would you want to go to college to learn how to do it? Yarrr, I did never say that!Cheers prof Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prof_lofi Posted December 9, 2004 Report Share Posted December 9, 2004 Yarrr' date=' I did never say that!Cheers prof [/quote'] no problem...good luck with everything Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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