The Filth And The Fury

[Guest allsystemsfail]

i think the thing with punk like when acid house hit the UK in the late 80's it was seen as a fresh' date=' new, exciting alternative to a stale music scene. that doesnt mean to say those involved didnt like things from the past because everyone has influences but at the time it became uncool to like the likes of mott the hoople, ELP etc thats where this notion of 'punk was against everything like that' come from.

[/quote']

Those first punks were excited by the Dolls and The Stooges. By Bowie and Roxy Music. 60s outfits too such as The Kinks and The Who. The Dolls television appearance - on The Old Grey Whistle Test, was of particular importance, thought a breath of fresh air.

[Guest allsystemsfail]

Surely music is abnout entertainment and a part of thst is giving people what they want and that means playing to as many people as want to see them. Do you genuinely believe that these people weren't influenced by the old glam musicians ? Mott the Hoople have been cited as a big influence on punk and they were the glam' date=' broadway filling musicians, the problem is that you've embraced an idea and a culture to a degree that isn't based in reality its based in an idea that never existed. The point of music is to entertain, it doesn't have to change the world and thats where the problem lies you think all bands who play punk music should feel that way, but punk is now a type of music not necessarily a way of life or an ethos, thats something people like you have built around it.

Cheers

Stuart[/quote']

Glam musicians? Could the Dolls fit this category? I guess so.

It's true that Mick Jones cited Mott The Hoople as an influence. One MTH member (whose name escapes me right now) produced Slaughter And The Dogs' second full length Bite Back. But those aside, I can think of no others. Okay, The Damned (in 1979) did cover The Sweet's Ballroom Blitz.

An idea that never existed? Punk is so much more than music, than just entertainment. And it has always been so.

[delboy]

Those first punks were excited by the Dolls and The Stooges. By Bowie and Roxy Music. 60s outfits too such as The Kinks and The Who. The Dolls television appearance - on The Old Grey Whistle Test' date=' was of particular importance, thought a breath of fresh air.[/quote']

i agree, but you can bet your bottom dollar that there were plenty of influences that were deemed 'uncool' at the time.

[Guest allsystemsfail]

i agree' date=' but you can bet your bottom dollar that there were plenty of influences that were deemed 'uncool' at the time.[/quote']

I've spoken only of those whose music powered early punk - whose influences can be heard in songs by The Damned, Pistols etc. Pub rockers such as Kilburn And The Highroads and Eddie And The Hotrods were important too. And not forgetting many reggae artists.

[Biz]

fuck me ! what a band

just watched it again and the Pistols live were fucking great, anyone know any bands who are so shit hot at live gigs NOW?

[delboy]

just watched it again and the Pistols live were fucking great' date=' anyone know any bands who are so shit hot at live gigs NOW?[/quote']

XS FUCKING RELOCAT and their mad drummer!

[Guest Jake Wifebeater]

Anyone else seen this movie? If so' date=' what did you think of it? I just caught it yesterday, and hey, what a movie. Just awesome.

For those who don't know, The Filth And The Fury is Julien Temple's second Sex Pistols movie. A documentary, it traces the band's turbulent history - from its very early beginnings to that fateful show in San Francisco. Was nice too to see it set against the political turmoil of the day - a thing important to punk's rise. Was so cool too catching that unseen footage - of the band, unused sequences from The Great Rock 'n' Roll Swindle, and wow, Who Killed Bambi.

Hey Jake, thanks for allowing me to borrow it. [/quote']

Absolutely no problem, glad you enjoyed it, thought you would! Shame you're copping a load of shit for being one of the few to stick to your guns by talking about punk in the present tense. You're right.

[Guest allsystemsfail]

Absolutely no problem' date=' glad you enjoyed it, thought you would! Shame you're copping a load of shit for being one of the few to stick to your guns by talking about punk in the present tense. You're right.[/quote']

Hey man, thanks. When would you like the video back? Could catch you in town if you'd like. Just send me a pm.

[betamax]

Absolutely no problem' date=' glad you enjoyed it, thought you would! Shame you're copping a load of shit for being one of the few to stick to your guns by talking about punk in the present tense. You're right.[/quote']

Unfortunately ''punk in its present tense'' is not the influencial radical force that the people who are into it, think it is ....always demanding that we acknowledge its importance! ....over and over again!....bollocks, its a spent force thats much less significant than it thinks it is......it might as well be heavy metal for all its impact on present issues and attitudes....its become a retrogressive dinosaur on its last legs, just like the stuff it allegedly was there to replace

sorry ....maybe the 'heavy metal' remark was a tad harsh

i love the SOUND of punk ....i just think its social importance in 2004 is overstated

and its politics are dated and dare I say too soft

[Guest allsystemsfail]

Unfortunately ''punk in its present tense'' is not the influencial radical force that the people who are into it' date=' think it is ....always demanding that we acknowledge its importance! ....over and over again!....bollocks, its a spent force thats much less significant than it thinks it is......it might as well be heavy metal for all its impact on present issues and attitudes....its become a retrogressive dinosaur on its last legs, just like the stuff it allegedly was there to replace

sorry ....maybe the 'heavy metal' remark was a tad harsh

i love the SOUND of punk ....i just think its social importance in 2004 is overstated

and its politics are dated and dare I say too soft[/quote']

Here we go again.

FACT Countless thousands of folks across the globe would not have become politically active were it not for punk.

FACT There are few in the anarchist movement whose lives were not in some way touched by folks such as Crass or Conflict. Politics too soft indeed. I guess you're not too familiar with the Class War Federation - many of whose members are punks. Check out their website at http://www.classwaruk.org

[betamax]

Here we go again.

FACT Countless thousands of folks across the globe would not have become politically active were it not for punk.

FACT There are few in the anarchist movement whose lives were not in some way touched by folks such as Crass or Conflict. Politics too soft indeed. I guess you're not too familiar with the Class War Federation - many of whose members are punks. Check out their website at http://www.classwaruk.org

Im very familiar with said Class War

I cant knock the sentiment - but stuff like the 'party' to celebrate the death of Thatcher is pathetic....much as I utterly loath what she stood for...it will only add to the negative image

Also the stuff about banning fox hunting seems steeped in 'hatred of the hoorays' rather than the rights of the animals themselves....a floored strategy that makes opposition to their cause way too easy and loses them credibility

Maybe 'soft' isnt the word, but maybe 'predictable' is.

The sentiment is basically there, but the presentation is dire and the association with Punk only makes the whole thing easily pigeon-holed and an easy target for the obvious forces that want to crush your opinions

I respect what they do in some ways, but I doubt they have any effect, what the answer needs to be is not known at this present time, but the current crop of anarchy by numbers anarchists will change fuck all

sometimes you need to play the game to win it

we always agree to disagee on politics

steve jones was magic though eh?

[Guest allsystemsfail]

Im very familiar with said Class War

I cant knock the sentiment - but stuff like the 'party' to celebrate the death of Thatcher is pathetic....much as I utterly loath what she stood for...it will only add to the negative image

Also the stuff about banning fox hunting seems steeped in 'hatred of the hoorays' rather than the rights of the animals themselves....a floored strategy that makes opposition to their cause way too easy and loses them credibility

Maybe 'soft' isnt the word' date=' but maybe 'predictable' is.

The sentiment is basically there, but the presentation is dire and the association with Punk only makes the whole thing easily pigeon-holed and an easy target for the obvious forces that want to crush your opinions

I respect what they do in some ways, but I doubt they have any effect, what the answer needs to be is not known at this present time, but the current crop of anarchy by numbers anarchists will change fuck all

sometimes you need to play the game to win it

we always agree to disagee on politics

steve jones was magic though eh?[/quote']

Please, don't think that I hold with the views of CW. I disagree with a lotta their politics. However, I gotta lotta respect for the guys - their militancy, quick to take action.

My politics? While as I've said I have some sympathy with class struggle anarchism, I am essentially an eco-anarchist. It is groups such as Reclaim The Streets and Earth First, publications such as Schnews and Do Or Die, those active in the wider anti-capitalist movement, who have raised the profile of anarchism, brought it to a much wider public. Those active in class based politics - folks such as CW or the Anarchist Federation? Their politics is I believe largely redundant.

[Guest Jake Wifebeater]

Unfortunately ''punk in its present tense'' is not the influencial radical force that the people who are into it' date=' think it is ....always demanding that we acknowledge its importance! ....over and over again!....bollocks, its a spent force thats much less significant than it thinks it is......it might as well be heavy metal for all its impact on present issues and attitudes....its become a retrogressive dinosaur on its last legs, just like the stuff it allegedly was there to replace

sorry ....maybe the 'heavy metal' remark was a tad harsh

i love the SOUND of punk ....i just think its social importance in 2004 is overstated

and its politics are dated and dare I say too soft[/quote']

It is an influential force for me personally, I couldn't care less what it means or doesn't mean to anyone else. Just because the media stopped hyping it in about 1979 proclaiming it to be dead, doesn't mean punk died. It means it went back into the hands of those who genuinely gave a fuck about it. The genre has changed unbelievably since, for the better I reckon. Back to basics, away from mainstream commodification, despite the attempts to cash in on it every 5 years or so.

[Guest allsystemsfail]

Just because the media stopped hyping it in about 1979 proclaiming it to be dead' date=' doesn't mean punk died. It means it went back into the hands of those who genuinely gave a fuck about it. The genre has changed unbelievably since, for the better I reckon. Back to basics, away from mainstream commodification, despite the attempts to cash in on it every 5 years or so.[/quote']

Well said.

[Flossie T Sheep]

Here we go again.

FACT Countless thousands of folks across the globe would not have become politically active were it not for punk.

FACT There are few in the anarchist movement whose lives were not in some way touched by folks such as Crass or Conflict. Politics too soft indeed. I guess you're not too familiar with the Class War Federation - many of whose members are punks. Check out their website at http://www.classwaruk.org

i hate the idea of punk ever being political, i always thought such an attitude ever transcended politics and uniformity and became a state of mind rather than something tangible, it was a state of mind that said "fuck the rules, do things your own way and say things the way you want to say them", it was about individuality more than unity and disregarding anything that was established

[Guest allsystemsfail]

i hate the idea of punk ever being political' date=' i always thought such an attitude ever transcended politics and uniformity and became a state of mind rather than something tangible, it was a state of mind that said "fuck the rules, do things your own way and say things the way you want to say them", it was about individuality more than unity and disregarding anything that was established[/quote']

Politics were, by and large, always an important facet of punk. Check out the work of early punk acts such as The Clash, Sham 69, Crass, The Ruts, UK Subs, and hey, the Pistols too, for proof of this. Many sought to fuck with authority, the system. A lotta punks, seeking to oppose the far right, would rally to the call of RAR.

[betamax]

i hate the idea of punk ever being political' date=' i always thought such an attitude ever transcended politics and uniformity and became a state of mind rather than something tangible, it was a state of mind that said "fuck the rules, do things your own way and say things the way you want to say them", it was about individuality more than unity and disregarding anything that was established[/quote']

exactly

its a shame its been hi-jacked and used for political purposes

it was never the media who killed punk, - punk wisely killed itself when it realised that people with huge agendas wanted to turn it into an ''organisation'' or worse, a ''force'' or even worse a ''community''

think about it ''community'' - how individual can a ''community'' be???

Just look at the way Rotton and Strummer quickly detached themselves from it when they saw the sense of individuality being removed and being replaced with lazy generic politics

I have a fuck the system mentality but I dont need an organisation or a punk song to tell me how to do it

That would be for the sheep (no pun intended)

[Flossie T Sheep]

Politics were' date=' by and large, always an important facet of punk. Check out the work of early punk acts such as The Clash, Sham 69, Crass, The Ruts, UK Subs, and hey, the Pistols too, for proof of this. Many sought to fuck with authority, the system. A lotta punks, seeking to oppose the far right, would rally to the call of RAR.[/quote']

politics involves a system for things to work a certain way though, something needs to be established, its too easy to say "fuck the system" or "no sell out" because its a cool posture to adopt, its the equivalent of Marlon Brando being asked what he's rebelling against and he slurs "whatta ya got?" in The Wild One, but in reality most people aren't practising what they preach and aren't hitting the system from the inside

all these acts that are claiming to be "no sell out" acts aren't damaging or destroying the system, its like throwing rolled-up pieces of paper at an armoured tank the methods they're using to try and "destroy the system", it will never even buckle the knees of the monster that is the system

lol i hope when you say the work of early punk acts such as The Clash, you're not meaning so early that they were the 101ers before were you?

[Flossie T Sheep]

exactly

its a shame its been hi-jacked and used for political purposes

it was never the media who killed punk' date=' - punk wisely killed itself when it realised that people with huge agendas wanted to turn it into an ''organisation'' or worse, a ''force'' or even worse a ''community''

think about it ''community'' - how individual can a ''community'' be???

Just look at the way Rotton and Strummer quickly detached themselves from it when they saw the sense of individuality being removed and being replaced with lazy generic politics

I have a fuck the system mentality but I dont need an organisation or a punk song to tell me how to do it

That would be for the sheep (no pun intended)[/quote']

i really do loathe and begrudge the fact that there's hordes of people all saying "we're punks!", it sounds like some horrible monty python sketch with a musical number like "i'm a punk and its okay, i spit all night and i kick the shit out of people all day" in the middle, the whole fact that there's loads of people with mohawks and leather jackets and wearing A for Anarchy signs and what not shows that people missed the entire point of what punk was meant to be about, it was never meant to be about community at all, it was meant to inject a source of freedom into every single individual to express themselves the way THEY want to and not how the media or the government or anyone else should tell them to

but instead people tend into gullible fashion victim morons and destroyed the point of it all, the music and image and entire scene became generic, it was given a label and it was absorbed back into the system and became established and normal, end of story, its dead

[Guest allsystemsfail]

politics involves a system for things to work a certain way though' date=' something needs to be established, its too easy to say "fuck the system" or "no sell out" because its a cool posture to adopt, its the equivalent of Marlon Brando being asked what he's rebelling against and he slurs "whatta ya got?" in The Wild One, but in reality most people aren't practising what they preach and aren't hitting the system from the inside

all these acts that are claiming to be "no sell out" acts aren't damaging or destroying the system, its like throwing rolled-up pieces of paper at an armoured tank the methods they're using to try and "destroy the system", it will never even buckle the knees of the monster that is the system

lol i hope when you say the work of early punk acts such as The Clash, you're not meaning so early that they were the 101ers before were you? [/quote']

A lotta folks choose to fuck with the system, not because they believe it cool, but because they wish a better future.

Hitting the system from the inside? To affect real and lasting change, people must fight the system from without. Using the permitted routes of action will, in the long run, do not a damn thing.

Those advocating change causing little or no harm? As I've said elsewhere, many thousands of people across the world (due to punk's influence) have become active in revolutionary politics. Sure, I would be naive if I thought the DIY punk community could indeed crush the system. However, it's contribution to radical thought and action has been of extreme importance, and should not be underestimated.

The 101ers? Strummer was not then aware of punk.

[Flossie T Sheep]

Sure, I would be naive if I thought the DIY punk community could indeed crush the system. However, it's contribution to radical thought and action has been of extreme importance, and should not be underestimated.

you've already underestimated it by giving it a label - DIY punk. the whole point of punk wasn't to label anything and the fact that there's a community says that its not about punk at all but about wearing the entire thing like a scout badge on your sleeve

[Guest allsystemsfail]

exactly

its a shame its been hi-jacked and used for political purposes

it was never the media who killed punk' date=' - punk wisely killed itself when it realised that people with huge agendas wanted to turn it into an ''organisation'' or worse, a ''force'' or even worse a ''community''

think about it ''community'' - how individual can a ''community'' be???

Just look at the way Rotton and Strummer quickly detached themselves from it when they saw the sense of individuality being removed and being replaced with lazy generic politics

I have a fuck the system mentality but I dont need an organisation or a punk song to tell me how to do it

That would be for the sheep (no pun intended)[/quote']

What complete nonsense. I'm sorry, but in the hands of the majors, punk did indeed became only product - a thing of little worth, no longer a threat.

Those involved - Rotten and others, did not detach themselves from the scene as they foresaw its destruction, disgusted by what they saw They simply didn't give a shit anymore. They sold out.

[Guest allsystemsfail]

you've already underestimated it by giving it a label - DIY punk. the whole point of punk wasn't to label anything and the fact that there's a community says that its not about punk at all but about wearing the entire thing like a scout badge on your sleeve

You've missed my point. I was talking about change, and how punk has made a significant contribution to radical politics.

[Flossie T Sheep]

Those involved - Rotten and others' date=' did not detach themselves from the scene as they foresaw its destruction, disgusted by what they saw They simply didn't give a shit anymore. They sold out.[/quote']

i wouldn't call leaving the sex pistols to form public image "selling out"

[Flossie T Sheep]

You've missed my point. I was talking about change' date=' and how punk has made a significant contribution to radical politics.[/quote']

i don't think you need to play DIY punk to make a significant contribution to radical politics, music can be influential in making people think but i doubt keeping the music underground so much will allow any contribution you're trying to make have the same desired effect as you hope it will

to fuck the system completely, you need as much people as you can get to hear your voice, which is an advantage bands like the pistols and the clash had