The Filth And The Fury

[betamax]

i think its very unfair to judge steve jones on things he did after the pistols' date=' all these cries of sell out just piss me off, everyone has to live, put food on the table and pay the rent. i'm suprised no-one has criticised me for earning my money playing chart fodder on the radio as opposed to local band demos!

in this business no matter what avenue you pursue you have to take what you can get. sure its important to have principles but one cannot live on principles alone. you know i for one was happy when the pistols got back together, sure it was a little embarrasing but on the other hand they could as a collective put the record straight once and for all and make a fair bit of well-deserved dosh.

i think the pistols have had more influence in the UK than just about any other band, you couldnt have written the script, i mean when you've been involved in something like that before your 21 where the fuck is there to go?[/quote']

true

the people who preach ''no sell out'' usually have quite wealthy Mums/Dads

its a phrase that been mis-used too

it really means ''dont conform'' in terms of changing your music to meet mass consumer or record company demands

it never meant ''dont ever earn any money or try to make a living versus starving to death for your art''

[Guest allsystemsfail]

So Jones co-wrote more than Matlock then...anyway daft topic....Matlock is also an under-rated anti hero who as a musician Im basically in awe of (even it that is a non punk sentiment according to the new rules of punk)

so how can any of the pistols not been seen as revolutionaries in their time....the band as a whole was something that shook the establishment like never before and never since.....normal guys just couldnt do that.....its like all the posturing and sloganeering of Strummer against the establishment just made him look like a nice chap' date=' with some common sense and a social concience - a politician .....no threat to anything that the establishment held dear..... but something about the dynamic of the Pistols and their ability to corrupt and influence, had the nations controllers shitting themselves for over a year which is pretty revolutionary for any musician.....it will never happen again thats the only certainty[/quote']

I do not deny the Pistols impact. They were indeed a revolutionary band.

New rules of punk? Have you actually done any reading on punk's beginnings? If so, you will have seen that punk rejected the star status given performers. Shit, it was touched upon in the movie.

And normal guys just couldn't do that? You talk as though they were not human - as though they were gods. Really, your understanding of punk - of it's beginnings, is extremely wanting.

[Guest allsystemsfail]

i think its very unfair to judge steve jones on things he did after the pistols' date=' all these cries of sell out just piss me off, everyone has to live, put food on the table and pay the rent. i'm suprised no-one has criticised me for earning my money playing chart fodder on the radio as opposed to local band demos!

in this business no matter what avenue you pursue you have to take what you can get. sure its important to have principles but one cannot live on principles alone. you know i for one was happy when the pistols got back together, sure it was a little embarrasing but on the other hand they could as a collective put the record straight once and for all and make a fair bit of well-deserved dosh.

i think the pistols have had more influence in the UK than just about any other band, you couldnt have written the script, i mean when you've been involved in something like that before your 21 where the fuck is there to go?[/quote']

Steve Jones, on leaving the Pistols, did indeed make a valuable contribution, working with Gen X, The Banshees, Joan Jett And The Blackhearts, Johnny Thunders, Kraut, and The Avengers. And of course was also a member of The Professionals. However, his involvement with such projects didn't last long. Putting food on the table has nothing whatsover to do with it. He just simply couldn't cut it anymore.

Where do you go after the Pistols? Well, Lydon did demonstrate that you can indeed produce something radically different, and way more creative. His work with Public Image Limited proved this. Those first three full lengths are startling pieces of work. Jones? He just couldn't create.

And the reunion was so as to put the record straight? What new facts did Lydon and co bring to folks attention? We're all aware of McLaren's manipulation.

[Guest allsystemsfail]

true

the people who preach ''no sell out'' usually have quite wealthy Mums/Dads

its a phrase that been mis-used too

it really means ''dont conform'' in terms of changing your music to meet mass consumer or record company demands

it never meant ''dont ever earn any money or try to make a living versus starving to death for your art''

Those who accuse bands as having sold out have wealthy parents? Rubbish. It is a belief held by most in the punk underground, many of whom (like myself) from working class families.

And regarding its meaning? I said nothing about making money. I have no problem with success.

[betamax]

I do not deny the Pistols impact. They were indeed a revolutionary band.

New rules of punk? Have you actually done any reading on punk's beginnings? If so' date=' you will have seen that punk rejected the star status given performers. Shit, it was touched upon in the movie.

And normal guys just couldn't do that? You talk as though they were not human - as though they were gods. Really, your understanding of punk - of it's beginnings, is extremely wanting.[/quote']

If anyone could be a Sex Pistol I would be, but Ive tried, lots of times and Im not one. I cant even get a gig in my home town never mind almost destroy the rock establishment. So, erm, maybe thats why I look up to people who acheived something that in my eyes is pretty fucking impressive. Even more impressive when you see a film like the F AND THE F and realise they were very human, making what they did even more remarkable. I dont look up to them like Michael Jackson fans worship that wee fag, but I dont mind admitting if I had the chance to buy Lydon, Jones, Matlock or Cook a beer I would.

And again youve taken a famous throwaway line that was just part of the hype at the time ''anyone can be a sex pistol'' and decided its one of the punk rock rules. There was no fucking rules. There shouldnt be now but obviously some people think there are. Hence punks new predictability and deadness.

My understanding of punk rock then and now is this: it is a random, chaotic, instinctive reactionary form of music/lifestyle that at best causes change and as a minimum poses new questions and confrontation with established values. The minute people put expectations, rules and boundaries on it (all underground punks say this and that etc....), the ideology is killed off. The current join the dots predictability of rulebook punk renders it utterly value-less to me as an ideology. The music is passe but ok. But it might as well be heavy metal for all the use it is.

[Guest allsystemsfail]

If anyone could be a Sex Pistol I would be' date=' but Ive tried, lots of times and Im not one. I cant even get a gig in my home town never mind almost destroy the rock establishment. So, erm, maybe thats why I look up to people who acheived something that in my eyes is pretty fucking impressive. Even more impressive when you see a film like the F AND THE F and realise they were very human, making what they did even more remarkable. I dont look up to them like Michael Jacson fans worship that wee fag, but I dont mind admitting if I had the chance to buy Lydon, Jones, Matlock or Cook a beer I would.

And again youve taken a famous throwaway line that was just part of the hype at the time ''anyone can be a sex pistol'' and decided its one of the punk rock rules. There was no fucking rules. There shouldnt be now but obviously some people think there are. Hence punks new predictability and deadness.[/quote']

Sure, I used a title from a sequence in The Great Rock 'n' Roll Swindle. However, its point is indeed true. You wanna form a band? Then go do it. It was about the breaking down of barriers - between performer and audience. The folks up there are just like me and you. So rules? Not at all. This view was central to punk. You cannot get away from that.

[betamax]

quote of the day!

Jones? He just couldn't create.

I take it you've never played a guitar then. If you have and can honestly say you can create sonic rocknroll mayhem like Mr Steve Jones, ill buy a ticket right now.

[betamax]

it is central Luke....follow the rules of the punks ...Im mean Jedi

Sure' date=' I used a title from a sequence in The Great Rock 'n' Roll Swindle. However, its point is indeed true. You wanna form a band? Then go do it. It was about the breaking down of barriers - between performer and audience. The folks up there are just like me and you. So rules? Not at all. This view was central to punk. You cannot get away from that.[/quote']

HANG ON

Your the one goosestepping around with the PUNKROCK RULEBOOK

Dont start pinching my version that there are no rules....Ive been saying that for ever. You are the one accusing Steve Jones of NOT following YOUR set of rules and criteria for punk. therefor branding one of the Sex Pistols as not being worthy of enetering in your punk rock Ivory tower. Its like you are saying you are MORE punk rock that the guitarist from the Pistols!!! Im sure thats where we started this conversation yes?

Every time you say ''THIS VEIW IS CENTRAL TO PUNK'' you are contradicting yourself. NOTHING is central to it. The minute punk has a stated position and a stated agenda its fucked itself up the arse!!!!!.

[Guest allsystemsfail]

I take it you've never played a guitar then. If you have and can honestly say you can create sonic rocknroll mayhem like Mr Steve Jones' date=' ill buy a ticket right now.[/quote']

Go back and look at one of my previous posts. I said Steve was a phenomenal musician. But highly creative? No.

[betamax]

Go back and look at one of my previous posts. I said Steve was a phenomenal musician. But highly creative? No.

not another one who thinks Malcolm told him what to play?

[Guest allsystemsfail]

HANG ON

Your the one goosestepping around with the PUNKROCK RULEBOOK

Dont start pinching my version that there are no rules....Ive been saying that for ever. You are the one accusing Steve Jones of not following YOUR set of rules and criteria for punk. Im sure thats where we started this conversation yes?

Every time you say ''THIS VEIW IS CENTRAL TO PUNK'' you are contradicting yourself. NOTHING is central to it. The minute punk has a stated position and a stated agenda its fucked itself up the arse!!!!!.

The breaking down of barriers between performer and audience was indeed central to punk - that anyone could do it. It was one of punk's most important facets. This is not my version of events but fact. Punk sought to remove the rock dinosaurs from their places on high, to rid music of this rock star nonsense. Unfortunately, a lotta the early punks would become that which they'd sought to reject. The Clash playing stadium shows with The Who is but one example.

[delboy]

Steve Jones' date=' on leaving the Pistols, did indeed make a valuable contribution, working with Gen X, The Banshees, Joan Jett And The Blackhearts, Johnny Thunders, Kraut, and The Avengers. And of course was also a member of The Professionals. However, his involvement with such projects didn't last long. Putting food on the table has nothing whatsover to do with it. He just simply couldn't cut it anymore.

Where do you go after the Pistols? Well, Lydon did demonstrate that you can indeed produce something radically different, and way more creative. His work with Public Image Limited proved this. Those first three full lengths are startling pieces of work. Jones? He just couldn't create.

And the reunion was so as to put the record straight? What new facts did Lydon and co bring to folks attention? We're all aware of McLaren's manipulation.[/quote']

i think you'll find if you read interviews with the pistols around the time of the 1996 reunion it was to put the record straight, even then despite them all being middle aged they proved they could still cut it. i never blamed them once for reforming and taking the cash, they'd bloody earned it. was that a sell out? hell you could argue the pistols were selling out first time round signing with the likes of EMI! but the great thing about those days is they had less history to deal with.

whilst i would agree that musically lydon has been the most prolific and sucessful member and the early PIL albums are worth pride of place in any decent music collection, lydon needed like minded musicians in order to create. lydon has also created an awful lot of dross an all. the contribution of matlock, cook and jones should never be underestimated, the pistols were a one off, a unique commodity and it took those four individuals to create this.

[Flossie T Sheep]

no Bow Wow Wow taught Steve Jones everything he knows of course

[Flossie T Sheep]

The Clash playing stadium shows with The Who is but one example.

You wouldn't expect The Clash to play postage stamp-sized venues all their careers considering the enormous amount of fans who probably wanted to see them would you?

[Guest allsystemsfail]

not another one who thinks Malcolm told him what to play?

Have you actually read my posts? Go back and you will see that I despise McLaren. I do not believe, as some do, that the Pistols were his great creation, that he shaped the band to his wishes. Such a belief is nonsense.

[Guest allsystemsfail]

You wouldn't expect The Clash to play postage stamp-sized venues all their careers considering the enormous amount of fans who probably wanted to see them would you?

My point? Punk sought to sweep away rock's old guard - bands such as ELP, Led Zeppelin, and THE WHO. And stadium shows? The anithesis of punk.

[betamax]

Punk sought to.....

No punk ''sought'' to do nothing. It was a random collision of reactionary talent, from very diverse directions, with a common thread of dissaffection with society at the time, a reaction that gathered momentum and then exploded under the weight of its own suddenly trendy self conciousness. No one sat down in CBGBs or the 100 club in 76 and said ''right lets seek to remove the dinosaurs and break down the barriers with our audiences for it is central to our beliefs'' FOR FUCKS SAKE CAN YOU IMAGINE THAT!!!!.

The whole this was an beautiful accident. With no rules.

And then obviously pretty soon after that initial wave of uncomntrolled energy, it did develop a pattern and became quickly contrived/controlled so it died instantly.

[jester1470]

My point? Punk sought to sweep away rock's old guard - bands such as ELP' date=' Led Zeppelin, and THE WHO. And stadium shows? The anithesis of punk.[/quote']

Surely music is abnout entertainment and a part of thst is giving people what they want and that means playing to as many people as want to see them. Do you genuinely believe that these people weren't influenced by the old glam musicians ? Mott the Hoople have been cited as a big influence on punk and they were the glam, broadway filling musicians, the problem is that you've embraced an idea and a culture to a degree that isn't based in reality its based in an idea that never existed. The point of music is to entertain, it doesn't have to change the world and thats where the problem lies you think all bands who play punk music should feel that way, but punk is now a type of music not necessarily a way of life or an ethos, thats something people like you have built around it.

Cheers

Stuart

[delboy]

just every now and then bands come along for whom it is much more than the music but the band and their story has become a movement. bands such as the stone roses, nirvana and of course the pistols who had the best and most interesting story of them all.

[Guest allsystemsfail]

i think you'll find if you read interviews with the pistols around the time of the 1996 reunion it was to put the record straight' date=' even then despite them all being middle aged they proved they could still cut it. i never blamed them once for reforming and taking the cash, they'd bloody earned it. was that a sell out? hell you could argue the pistols were selling out first time round signing with the likes of EMI! but the great thing about those days is they had less history to deal with.

whilst i would agree that musically lydon has been the most prolific and sucessful member and the early PIL albums are worth pride of place in any decent music collection, lydon needed like minded musicians in order to create. lydon has also created an awful lot of dross an all. the contribution of matlock, cook and jones should never be underestimated, the pistols were a one off, a unique commodity and it took those four individuals to create this.[/quote']

Yes, Lydon and co did indeed say one of their reasons in reforming was so as to set the record straight. However, as I've said, McLaren's manipulation of events - his lies, is clear to anyone who cares to cast an eye over the subject.

The reunion shows demonstration of them having sold out? I didn't say that. Just that it was an embarrassing spectacle.

Their jumping to EMI? No, I don't believe that involved a compromise. The DIY ethic was still then in its infancy, so many bands such as the Pistols can hardly be slammed for that reason. Though, in the hands of the majors, punk did indeed become but a worthless commodity.

Sure, the contributions of Levine and Wobble were certainly important to PiL's early output. And sure, Lydon hasn't produced anything worthy of a listen in over 20 years. His embarking on more commercial ventures was the end.

And no, I am not underestimating the input of Matlock, Cook, and Jones. Together (with Rotten) they produced a band that would rock music to its foundations. As I've said, I loved the Pistols, and still think them an incredible band.

[betamax]

the problem is that you've embraced an idea and a culture to a degree that isn't based in reality its based in an idea that never existed

I go with that almost. I think the idea did exist briefly (for a few mad months in 76) - the sense of confrontation and opposition to what was all around, and the deafening and out-of-control demands for change were a brilliant but un-sustainable adrenaline rush. A one off event. so it sort of existed. But not now.

Aye Mick Jones....huge Mott the Hoople Fan. Glam music is under-rated and fucking rad and up there with punk and disco.

[Guest allsystemsfail]

No punk ''sought'' to do nothing. It was a random collision of reactionary talent' date=' from very diverse directions, with a common thread of dissaffection with society at the time, a reaction that gathered momentum and then exploded under the weight of its own suddenly trendy self conciousness. No one sat down in CBGBs or the 100 club in 76 and said ''right lets seek to remove the dinosaurs and break down the barriers with our audiences for it is central to our beliefs'' FOR FUCKS SAKE CAN YOU IMAGINE THAT!!!!.

The whole this was an beautiful accident. With no rules.

[/quote']

Yes, the political strife of the day was of extreme importance - in inspiring action. However, many were indeed tired of much of what passed as music back then, were sickened by the excesses of outfits such as ELP, or folks who they believed had lost their way, such as the Stones and The Who. To many, seeing the Pistols struck a chord - that music could again be exciting and challenging.

[delboy]

i think the thing with punk like when acid house hit the UK in the late 80's it was seen as a fresh, new, exciting alternative to a stale music scene. that doesnt mean to say those involved didnt like things from the past because everyone has influences but at the time it became uncool to like the likes of mott the hoople, ELP etc thats where this notion of 'punk was against everything like that' come from.

but punk (or the music that i would describe as punk!) in its many forms and genres still excites me. disco is an equally exciting and often much undervalued genre (where the hell would dance music be today be without disco?) though i think disco has been manipulated in mainstream music through pop artists desperate for a hit. still there has been a lot of terrible attempts at 'punk' as well hasn't there? many of the disco classics from the time still sound awesome today (i played the patrick hernandez tune 'born to be alive' the other day - fantastico).

glam rock is too undervalued, the first time rock guitars and thrashy pop were mixed to good effect (with the possible exception of the beatles).

[betamax]

patrick hernandez tune 'born to be alive'

70s classic

up there with Pretty Vacant and SOS by ABBA

[delboy]

i do have a fondness for Abba's forgotten classic 'does your mother know'