The Filth And The Fury

[Guest allsystemsfail]

i wouldn't call leaving the sex pistols to form public image "selling out"

Did I say that? No I did not. If you care to take a look at my earlier posts, you will see that I thought Lydon's contribution to Public image Limited exceptional. However, his work post Flowers Of Romace isn't worthy of a mention.

[Flossie T Sheep]

Did I say that? No I did not. If you care to take a look at my earlier posts' date=' you will see that I thought Lydon's contribution to Public image Limited exceptional. However, his work post Flowers Of Romace isn't worthy of a mention.[/quote']

calm down son, don't be getting all DIY punk on me

[Guest allsystemsfail]

i don't think you need to play DIY punk to make a significant contribution to radical politics' date=' music can be influential in making people think but i doubt keeping the music underground so much will allow any contribution you're trying to make have the same desired effect as you hope it will

to fuck the system completely, you need as much people as you can get to hear your voice, which is an advantage bands like the pistols and the clash had [/quote']

Indeed. You need not be a part of the DIY punk community to make a significant contribution to radical politics. But then, I didn't say that you did. My point? Only that it is a mistake to not consider punk's impact in terms of political discovery and action.

Maintaining an independence is of extreme importance. Sure, if we're gonna try and get a message out - so that it reaches a greater number of people, I do recognize the dilemna, and it is a difficult one. However, I believe playing the system's game involves a compromise that should not be made. Our politics is then tainted. We become a part of the machine.

[steve corps]

Indeed. You need not be a part of the DIY punk community to make a significant contribution to radical politics. But then' date=' I didn't say that you did. My point? Only that it is a mistake to not consider punk's impact in terms of political discovery and action.

Maintaining an independence is of extreme importance. Sure, if we're gonna try and get a message out - so that it reaches a greater number of people, I do recognize the dilemna, and it is a difficult one. However, I believe playing the system's game involves a compromise that should not be made. Our politics is then tainted. We become a part of the machine.[/quote']

didnt i meet you one day delivering safeways leaflets through letterboxes? those supermarket bastards sell meat by the ton and pay close to minimum wage for long hours.not to mention the capitalist overtones involved.does that make you part of the machine?

[Flossie T Sheep]

Indeed. You need not be a part of the DIY punk community to make a significant contribution to radical politics. But then' date=' I didn't say that you did. My point? Only that it is a mistake to not consider punk's impact in terms of political discovery and action.

Maintaining an independence is of extreme importance. Sure, if we're gonna try and get a message out - so that it reaches a greater number of people, I do recognize the dilemna, and it is a difficult one. However, I believe playing the system's game involves a compromise that should not be made. Our politics is then tainted. We become a part of the machine.[/quote']

do you sleep okay at night?

[Guest allsystemsfail]

didnt i meet you one day delivering safeways leaflets through letterboxes? those supermarket bastards sell meat by the ton and pay close to minimum wage for long hours.not to mention the capitalist overtones involved.does that make you part of the machine?

You did indeed. However, we're talkin bout the punk community - about jumping to majors, not of the means to survive. Hey, in order to do so, you gotta work a job. Unfortunate but true.

And yes, Safeway do indeed carry meat, and sure, my being vegan and making purchases there (not speaking of my then employment), does indeed involve some compromise. However, their (supermarket chains) monopolization of the marketplace makes shopping elsewhere impossible. And yes, they are indeed a capitalist enterprise. But, as I said, needs must. You cannot completely remove yourself from the world in which we live today. You can only do what you can, though can still do a great deal.

And supermarket bastards? Can I ask where you purchase your food?

Also, you object to their carrying meat? As it appears that you do. Are you vegetarian/vegan? If not, then why make such a point? Kinda strange when considering the view you've expressed elsewhere - on the thread regarding the 13th Note.

[Guest Jake Wifebeater]

Just a thought. Why is it, that there are folk saying that all punk is about is what it means to each individual person and when allsystemsfail talks about what it means for him personally, he gets the piss taken out of him? Seems a bit two-faced to me.

[steve corps]

You did indeed. However' date=' we're talkin bout the punk community - about jumping to majors, not of the means to survive. Hey, in order to do so, you gotta work a job. Unfortunate but true.

And yes, Safeway do indeed carry meat, and sure, my being vegan and making purchases there (not speaking of my then employment), does indeed involve some compromise. However, their (supermarket chains) monopolization of the marketplace makes shopping elsewhere impossible. And yes, they are indeed a capitalist enterprise. But, as I said, needs must. You cannot completely remove yourself from the world in which we live today. You can only do what you can, though can still do a great deal.

And supermarket bastards? Can I ask where you purchase your food?

Also, you object to their carrying meat? As it appears that you do. Are you vegetarian/vegan? If not, then why make such a point? Kinda strange when considering the view you've expressed elsewhere - on the thread regarding the 13th Note.[/quote']

nope, you havent convinced me in the slightest.i still believe you are part of the machine you dislike so much.there are many alternatives to the comprimises you mention.i firmly agree with safeways carrying meat, as i love sausages.just thought it funny how you almost venomously argue anything you feel strongly against but still compromise compromise compromise to suit yourself at the same time.

[Flossie T Sheep]

Just a thought. Why is it' date=' that there are folk saying that all punk is about is what it means to each individual person and when allsystemsfail talks about what it means for him personally, he gets the piss taken out of him? Seems a bit two-faced to me.[/quote']

its light-hearted banter and i am sure allsystemsfail is at an age where he can take such things on the chin, i just think his opinions are unrealistic if anything, i don't think such politics can exist without any form of compromises being required for them to truly change anything, people need to work with people for such things work

i presume his political stance is one of an anarchist the way he is talking, it would surprise me if it isn't lol;)

[Guest Jake Wifebeater]

its light-hearted banter and i am sure allsystemsfail is at an age where he can take such things on the chin' date=' i just think his opinions are unrealistic if anything, i don't think such politics can exist without any form of compromises being required for them to truly change anything, people need to work with people for such things work

i presume his political stance is one of an anarchist the way he is talking, it would surprise me if it isn't lol;)[/quote']

Yeah, I've known him for years and he believes VERY passionately in the things he does. I get what you're saying in that it may be unrealistic, but not being able to do everything isn't an excuse to do nothing.

*awaits arrest from the Cliche Police*

P.S. Eco-anarchist, to be precise!

[Flossie T Sheep]

Yeah' date=' I've known him for years and he believes VERY passionately in the things he does. I get what you're saying in that it may be unrealistic, but not being able to do everything isn't an excuse to do nothing.

*awaits arrest from the Cliche Police*

P.S. Eco-anarchist, to be precise![/quote']

Thats why i believe in the "keep your friends close but keep your enemies closer" ethic and why its better to infiltrate the system and destroy it from within, thats the only way it will ever be toppled

a bit like how the death star was toppled in star wars and return of the jedi

[Guest allsystemsfail]

nope' date=' you havent convinced me in the slightest.i still believe you are part of the machine you dislike so much.there are many alternatives to the comprimises you mention.i firmly agree with safeways carrying meat, as i love sausages.just thought it funny how you almost venomously argue anything you feel strongly against but still compromise compromise compromise to suit yourself at the same time.[/quote']

As I said, there is a great deal of difference between a punk outfit choosing to jump to a major and working a job coz you have little or no choice in the matter. You gotta pay the bills. Shit, we're talking bout one lousy job. The other jobs I've worked? I was a care worker for a number of years, working with people with severe physical disabilities in their own homes. Was employed by three projects. Also embarked on a lengthy period of work/study with the Scottish Wildlife Trust.

I had no REAL difficulties in working that job. Sure, it is a large corporate entity, but hey, it isn't Wal-Mart. There I draw the line. Also, I shop at Safeway. I've given them (over the years) a considerable amount of money. Does then taking a job there make any difference at all? No.

Also, I know folks active in political struggle who work jobs at McDonalds - are active in workplace struggle. I ain't got a problem with them working there. In fact, I've taken action in their support.

And compromise compromise compromise? We're talking just one. Care to list the others?

Look, I consider (with great seriousness) each and every action I take - consider the political implications of almost everything I do. I take my politics very very seriously, and have been active politically for over 20 years. In your eyes this appears not to count for much. Maybe you suggest that before I say anything else, I move to an area of wilderness - live in a cave perhaps?

As I said, to function in today's world does indeed involve compromise. However, there is still much we can do to affect change - making what choices we can about the products that we buy and from where. Looking at the things that we do, and how they impact on others and the environment. And of course, taking political action.

And your concern for the treatment of workers - folks working long hours for little pay? Can I ask if you are in any way active in the labour movement, active in supporting workplace struggles? Coz hey, expressing concern from the comfort of your living room is easy. Taking political action? Well that is something else.

And these long hours? Safeway management prefer that staff work no more than 39 hours per week.

And shit, what is this all about? Coz I worked a job at Safeway for 18 months? Should I throw up my politcal activity as a result? Do my politics now mean shit?

[Guest killamangiro]

two simple words kids,

DRUGS KILL.

[Guest allsystemsfail]

its light-hearted banter and i am sure allsystemsfail is at an age where he can take such things on the chin' date=' i just think his opinions are unrealistic if anything, i don't think such politics can exist without any form of compromises being required for them to truly change anything, people need to work with people for such things work

i presume his political stance is one of an anarchist the way he is talking, it would surprise me if it isn't lol;)[/quote']

Um... hello, I'm still here.

Sure, you can believe my views unrealistic if you wish. However, point of fact. Anarchists (in terms of organisation) do not seek alliances with others whose politics will conflict with their central belief - that is a rejection of authority, of political hierarchy. Sure, we work with people who may share our concerns, but with ordinary working people, not the system's functionaries.

[Guest allsystemsfail]

Thats why i believe in the "keep your friends close but keep your enemies closer" ethic and why its better to infiltrate the system and destroy it from within' date=' thats the only way it will ever be toppled

a bit like how the death star was toppled in star wars and return of the jedi [/quote']

You cannot destroy the system from within. As anarchists, we have no interest in working within its confines. Genuine change can only be achieved from without. Those who have attempted to tame the beast have failed.

[betamax]

.......destroyed the point of it all' date=' the music and image and entire scene became generic, it was given a label and it was absorbed back into the system and became established and normal, end of story, its dead[/quote']

More agreement .....''Punks'' are so obvious and apparent as belonging to neatly labelled social demograph (a ''community'') that the idea of them ever causing a problem to the system is a joke...you can spot them a fucking mile off...the new hippies!

punk is indeed dead, or at best totally irrelevant to the current status > with about as much social influence as heavy metal as ever had (ie none)

real freedom from control and subversion hopefully still exists and simmers away in peoples heads - but it certainly dosen't have a mo-hawk or wear and 'anarchy' badge

fucking easy targets

as for DIY, anyone can do that, and its only really appeasing yourself, it has no actual influence when it comes to fighting the shit we should be fighting. Its important to those who do it, I agree, but realistically outside your ''community'' no one is listening. The fact that you are busy amusing yourselves inside your own very small DIY bubble is very commendable in principle, but unfortunately plays right into the hands of the very people you regard as your targets. Its like saying ''Hello, we are all over here!''

Im not taking the piss out of anyone btw, and in fact think this discussion is actually one of the more revealing and even well mannered debates Ive seen on here.....proving, even among the anti establishment thinkers we all see things our own way.

[Guest allsystemsfail]

More agreement .....''Punks'' are so obvious and apparent as belonging to neatly labelled social demograph (a ''community'') that the idea of them ever causing a problem to the system is a joke...you can spot them a fucking mile off...the new hippies!

punk is indeed dead' date=' or at best totally irrelevant to the current status > with about as much social influence as heavy metal as ever had (ie none)

real freedom from control and subversion hopefully still exists and simmers away in peoples heads - but it certainly dosen't have a mo-hawk or wear and 'anarchy' badge

fucking easy targets

as for DIY, anyone can do that, and its only really appeasing yourself, it has no actual influence when it comes to fighting the shit we should be fighting. Its important to those who do it, I agree, but realistically outside your ''community'' no one is listening. The fact that you are busy amusing yourselves inside your own very small DIY bubble is very commendable in principle, but unfortunately plays right into the hands of the very people you regard as your targets. Its like saying ''Hello, we are all over here!''

Im not taking the piss out of anyone btw, and in fact think this discussion is actually one of the more revealing and even well mannered debates Ive seen on here.....proving, even among the anti establishment thinkers we all see things our own way.[/quote']

I would resond, but I'd only be repeating myself. We're also never gonna agree.

Anyway, we've discussed the merits of the Pistols - any other punk acts from that era who you'd rate?

[Guest Jake Wifebeater]

punk is indeed dead' date=' real freedom from control and subversion hopefully still exists and simmers away in peoples heads - but it certainly dosen't have a mo-hawk

as for DIY, anyone can do that, and its only really appeasing yourself, it has no actual influence when it comes to fighting the shit we should be fighting. Its important to those who do it, I agree, but realistically outside your ''community'' no one is listening. The fact that you are busy amusing yourselves inside your own very small DIY bubble is very commendable in principle, but unfortunately plays right into the hands of the very people you regard as your targets. Its like saying ''Hello, we are all over here!''

Im not taking the piss out of anyone btw, and in fact think this discussion is actually one of the more revealing and even well mannered debates Ive seen on here.....proving, even among the anti establishment thinkers we all see things our own way.[/quote']

I'm just quoting the bits you've said I want to chip in about. I disagree that punk is dead, if it was why the 7-page thread about it?! OK, you reckon it's dead and you sound pretty jaded and disillusioned about it. Is it the case that you got really into it and then became disappointed when things didn't happen, things didn't change quickly enough for you? I'm not trying to goad you, it's just that, from your posts, an element of frustration comes across. Lots of people gave up on it when they were unable to make an instant, tangible difference.

I love amusing myself inside my own D.I.Y. bubble! I don't want to be someone who spikes their hair, waltzes into HMV, loads up with CD purchases and hey presto! Am I punk now? There is still a thriving underground, mail order distros, zines and even the legendary tape-trading! Give me that over over-priced record shops any day. The very fact that anyone can do DIY is the beauty of it. I have no talent whatsoever, but I've still been able to get a band together, do a few gigs and get a CD out there. I've found it pretty fucking amazing to be able to do that. OK, it might not change much but it has certainly changed me!

I agree that this is a constructive, thoughtful argument. 7 pages so far without it degenerating into insults and cat-calling. Ah, the politeness of rebellion!

[betamax]

I'm just quoting the bits you've said I want to chip in about. I disagree that punk is dead' date=' if it was why the 7-page thread about it?! OK, you reckon it's dead and you sound pretty jaded and disillusioned about it. Is it the case that you got really into it and then became disappointed when things didn't happen, things didn't change quickly enough for you? I'm not trying to goad you, it's just that, from your posts, an element of frustration comes across. Lots of people gave up on it when they were unable to make an instant, tangible difference.

I love amusing myself inside my own D.I.Y. bubble! I don't want to be someone who spikes their hair, waltzes into HMV, loads up with CD purchases and hey presto! Am I punk now? There is still a thriving underground, mail order distros, zines and even the legendary tape-trading! Give me that over over-priced record shops any day. The very fact that anyone can do DIY is the beauty of it. I have no talent whatsoever, but I've still been able to get a band together, do a few gigs and get a CD out there. I've found it pretty fucking amazing to be able to do that. OK, it might not change much but it has certainly changed me!

I agree that this is a constructive, thoughtful argument. 7 pages so far without it degenerating into insults and cat-calling. Ah, the politeness of rebellion![/quote']

Thing is I do feel reasonably satisfied that I make a difference in my own ways. Buts it not connected with music at all. I rate and even obsess over some punk music, but fail to simplistically connect it with my own opposition to conformity and the establishment. I dont need a band or a poster to tell me its ok to think how I think about the world, or to define my personal politics. When people do, I just find it a bit suspicious.

I certainly dont feel let down by punk either as such as ive never relied on it for anything other than an adrenoline rush. I pretty much take it all lightly as I know it will never change anything. But Im certainly not jaded enough to hope that there are other ways to create changes. Sometimes Im even optomistic, especially when the media actually seems to fight back against the system on our behalf. Unfortunately it won't be long before they will be totally gagged. You can see it happening now.

I dont know what the solution is. But something more effective than civilised protest in ''musical communities'' as I dont think singing about it will change a thing, especially when it can actually across as a parody of whats already gone before. Dosen't mean Im against people doing that though, I just think you should recognise that its not really gonna make Tony Blair shit his pants. Voting in a ''democracy'' is not an option either.

The bit about you changing (I assume for the better) as a side effect of doing the DIY thing is a pretty interesting though. I can't knock that aspect of it at all.

[Guest allsystemsfail]

Thing is I do feel reasonably satisfied that I make a difference in my own ways. Buts it not connected with music at all. I rate and even obsess over some punk music' date=' but fail to simplistically connect it with my own opposition to conformity and the establishment. I dont need a band or a poster to tell me its ok to think how I think about the world, or to define my personal politics. When people do, I just find it a bit suspicious.

I certainly dont feel let down by punk either as such as ive never relied on it for anything other than an adrenoline rush. I pretty much take it all lightly as I know it will never change anything. But Im certainly not jaded enough to hope that there are other ways to create changes. Sometimes Im even optomistic, especially when the media actually seems to fight back against the system on our behalf. Unfortunately it won't before they will be totally gagged.

I dont know what the solution is. But something more effective than civilised protest in ''musical communities'' as I dont think singing about it will change a thing, especially when it can actually across as a parody of whats already gone before. Dosen't mean Im against people doing that though, I just think you should recognise that its not really gonna make Tony Blair shit his pants. Voting in a ''democracy'' is not an option either.

The bit about you changing (I assume for the better) as a side effect of doing the DIY thing is a pretty interesting though. I can't knock that aspect of it at all.[/quote']

Some nice points.

I fully recognize the punk underground's limitations - in terms of affecting change. As I've said, it has had a significant impact - many folks taking action as a result of their contact with the scene. However, the actions of such a community cannot fully challenge the established order. In order to do this, we gotta take action with others - on the streets, and in our workplaces and communities.

And hey you're right, voting is gonna get us nowhere.

[steve corps]

As I said' date=' there is a great deal of difference between a punk outfit choosing to jump to a major and working a job coz you have little or no choice in the matter. You gotta pay the bills. Shit, we're talking bout one lousy job. The other jobs I've worked? I was a care worker for a number of years, working with people with severe physical disabilities in their own homes. Was employed by three projects. Also embarked on a lengthy period of work/study with the Scottish Wildlife Trust.

I had no REAL difficulties in working that job. Sure, it is a large corporate entity, but hey, it isn't Wal-Mart. There I draw the line. Also, I shop at Safeway. I've given them (over the years) a considerable amount of money. Does then taking a job there make any difference at all? No.

Also, I know folks active in political struggle who work jobs at McDonalds - are active in workplace struggle. I ain't got a problem with them working there. In fact, I've taken action in their support.

And compromise compromise compromise? We're talking just one. Care to list the others?

Look, I consider (with great seriousness) each and every action I take - consider the political implications of almost everything I do. I take my politics very very seriously, and have been active politically for over 20 years. In your eyes this appears not to count for much. Maybe you suggest that before I say anything else, I move to an area of wilderness - live in a cave perhaps?

As I said, to function in today's world does indeed involve compromise. However, there is still much we can do to affect change - making what choices we can about the products that we buy and from where. Looking at the things that we do, and how they impact on others and the environment. And of course, taking political action.

And your concern for the treatment of workers - folks working long hours for little pay? Can I ask if you are in any way active in the labour movement, active in supporting workplace struggles? Coz hey, expressing concern from the comfort of your living room is easy. Taking political action? Well that is something else.

And these long hours? Safeway management prefer that staff work no more than 39 hours per week.

And shit, what is this all about? Coz I worked a job at Safeway for 18 months? Should I throw up my politcal activity as a result? Do my politics now mean shit?[/quote']

i'm actually in the comfort of my bedroom and i still think you are a hypocrite.this is all about being part of a machine and being tainted.maybe one day you will recognise that i hope.good luck.

[Flossie T Sheep]

Some nice points.

I fully recognize the punk underground's limitations - in terms of affecting change. As I've said' date=' it has had a significant impact - many folks taking action as a result of their contact with the scene. However, the actions of such a community cannot fully challenge the established order. In order to do this, we gotta take action with others - on the streets, and in our workplaces and communities.

And hey you're right, voting is gonna get us nowhere.[/quote']

i think voting does get you somewhere, if enough people start voting for the alternative parties then perhaps that will stop Britain turning into a one party state but i don't think it will, too much apathy innit?, i don't think it should be up to music to act as a spokesperson either, music is entertainment and last thing i wanna hear on a record is our rockstars or pop singers preaching their politics to me because then everything they say and do becomes suspicious and one-sided, thats why the likes of Bono and Sting turn my stomach at times, i would like to know how Sting has the audacity and gall to preach to me about anything when he's released so many dreadful records over the years but thats beside the point;)

there's nothing wrong with having an opinion and i think the whole punk movement in the 70s wasn't a political movement although various writers and journalists foolishly tried to view it that way, it just consisted of people who had strong opinions on the way the country was going at that time

the only things punk really gave to people was individuality, freedom of choice and freedom of expression and i am glad it did but i am not going to answer or be involved with the DIY punk scene to prove anything of myself and my thoughts to anyone else, i am not here to preach to anyone, you either like my opinion or don't but i am not going to ram it down your throat, i like to be my own person as i am sure you do, end of story;)

[Guest allsystemsfail]

i'm actually in the comfort of my bedroom and i still think you are a hypocrite.this is all about being part of a machine and being tainted.maybe one day you will recognise that i hope.good luck.

You can believe what you want. My conscience is clear.

I also asked you a number of questions which you failed (or perhaps couldn't) address. For instance I asked you to list the compromises I've made - you said I've made many. I asked you also, as you'd demonstrated great concern about the treatment of workers, if you were in any way active in the labour movement. You did express concern did you not? What was it you called supermarkets? Bastards wasn't it?

And as I've said - a fact which you've conveniently ignored, we are all tainted, all have to make compromises. We must do so in order to function in todays world. And yes, I do fully recognize this. So yes, I guess we are all hypocrites to an extent. However, as I said, there is a limit to what we all can do. Almost all activities are tainted in some manner or other. All we can do is our best.

You know, I'd have a little more respect for those such as yourself who challenge my politics, if they themselves were active politically, did anything at all. Pointing a finger at folks is easy. Taking political action is, as I've said, something else.

And this matter of Safeway - is that all you can use against me - that I once worked a job there? If so, then your arguement is extremely weak - ridiculous in fact. Shit, we're not talking McDonalds or Gap, working on the floor of a slaughterhouse. We're talking about a supermarket chain. And a fairly harmless one at that. You know what this kinda reminds me of? The folks who seek, in order to justify their own standpoint - that they can still feel good about themselves - so they can feel no guilt, to find faults in the arguements of those campaigning for animal rights. Hey, you're wearing leather shoes. Satisfied they've found a flaw, they go off on their way. It's pathetic.

And my fellow activists - folks active in the anti-capitalist cause over many years, both here in Britain and on mainland Europe, how did they view my working a job at Safeway? They thought nothing of it.

[Guest allsystemsfail]

i think voting does get you somewhere' date=' if enough people start voting for the alternative parties then perhaps that will stop Britain turning into a one party state but i don't think it will, too much apathy innit?, i don't think it should be up to music to act as a spokesperson either, music is entertainment and last thing i wanna hear on a record is our rockstars or pop singers preaching their politics to me because then everything they say and do becomes suspicious and one-sided, thats why the likes of Bono and Sting turn my stomach at times, i would like to know how Sting has the audacity and gall to preach to me about anything when he's released so many dreadful records over the years but thats beside the point;)

[/quote']

Voting supports only the lie that is democracy. Its function is to serve and protect the interests of the established order. Voting cannot affect genuine change. Radical change within its confines is not permitted. Those who have attempted to do such a thing have been beaten. For instance, the intelligence services and others plotted against Wilson's Labour government - sought to overthrow it.

Voter apathy? People do not vote, as they believe (quite correctly) that it will change little. It will not make their lives any better, whichever party sits in parliament.

Politics in music? Sure, like you I am deeply cynical of the motives of pop and rock acts who dabble in politics. However, leftist/anti-authoritarian opinion is an extremely important facet of punk - is central to its cause.

[Flossie T Sheep]

Voting supports only the lie that is democracy. Its function is to serve and protect the interests of the established order. Voting cannot affect genuine change. Radical change within its confines is not permitted. Those who have attempted to do such a thing have been beaten. For instance' date=' the intelligence services and others plotted against Wilson's Labour government - sought to overthrow it.

Voter apathy? People do not vote, as they believe (quite correctly) that it will change little. It will not make their lives any better, whichever party sits in parliament.

Politics in music? Sure, like you I am deeply cynical of the motives of pop and rock acts who dabble in politics. However, leftist/anti-authoritarian opinion is an extremely important facet of punk - is central to its cause.[/quote']

i don't think punk should have any facets like having a political stance, see the way you're talking now about punk, its as if being left-wing is part and parcel with being part of that whole scene, punk wasn't about that, punk wasn't about wearing a uniform or being part of a community, the whole point was to be absolutely honest about yourself and honest and realistic in everything you say and do, to be an individual and think for yourself and express yourself freely

i think you're too caught up in your own political opinions now and you just sound like a big ball of confusion, i am also not liking this "i'm right and you're wrong" attitude emanating from the things you're writing, i will make my own mind up about things like politics thank you very much, i don't need you to explain to me whats wrong with the world so please, go ram your political opinions down someone else's throat

now getting back to the real point about punk, it was an expression and attitude that transcends things like politics, politics had no place in people making such music, people just made such music because they simply could and it inspired others to do the same because it shown you didn't need to be a great guitarist or a fantastic singer to do it, you just do it and people either like it or don't, doo dah, i don't like where you're coming from with your whole attitude towards punk, i think you've misunderstood the whole concept pretty much