Doc

A bit of clarification here' date=' if you could. How do you define scrounger? Does this apply to everyone who claims, or attempts to claim, benefits? We spoke elsewhere about how my partner is being utterly shat on by the system, I hope you're not including her in your definition! I don't think you are, mind you.

I'm almost tempted to say "well done" to those who actually qualify for benefits, the rigmarole they put you through when you try to claim...........[/quote']

Not at all. I think your partner has been shoddily treated.

Of course there are people who plainly need support and most of them deserve it. I'm thinking more of the guy that lives near me, who claims all the benefits in the world, income support, council tax rebates, disability allowance (bad back, nudge nudge) but still manages to work as a painter and decorator, cash in hand, no tax, no NI, guvnor.

He's the reason why you and your girlfriend have to jump through hoops to get anything.

100 stwards? Where did you get this number from? Yes' date=' Aberdeen Trades Council, in making their application to march, were asked to provide 100 stewards. This was judged necessary by the police, as the numbers attending the counter-demonstration was said to be around 1000. The NF march however would have been much smaller, and so would not have required as many stewards.

Also, you need not pay stewards. The people who steward protests do so for free.[/quote']

Indeed. So small as to be insigificant and perhaps even laughable. Now they have 100 times the publicity, made all you counter demo guys look like idiots and they're still going to be in Aberdeen on the same day, unsupervised, uncontrolled and, it has to be said, far harder than the counter demo people, who for the most part are decent people unused to physical violence. I might even come along that day myself to watch the chaos and carnage.

We did speak about that' date=' but I would feel fucking awful about it and neither of us want to go down that road. It says something about how rotten a system it is that we'd be better off lying about the situation. She has been offered a lovely 3-bedroom flat and accepted it. Problem is, the keys have to go to the Works Department first and we've no way of knowing how long that'll take. Could be next week, could be months! And no Income Support until she's in there! My God, what a fucking world we live in. Her parents live in Selkirk, all they can really do is send up money, which they've started doing since we've exhausted all the options. It WILL work out, I'm bloody determined. Hey Doc, thanks for your kind words.[/quote']

At least you know there's a light at the end of the tunnel and she knows she's not alone.

Might be a good idea to get some experience of the real world before you start typing out nasty' date=' poisonous, hate-fuelled bile from the safety of your computer desk. I'll give you a personal example here, son. My partner is now seven months pregnant. Yeah, I know that's her fucking fault, what a selfish fucking bitch for willing a foetus into the womb, eh? I met her when she was in the early stages of pregnancy, and she did her level best to warn me off and put me off her. It didn't work, I persisted and we fell in love. I invited her to come and live with me. I work part-time and am unable to support us both, so it was time to apply for some benefits. Jobseeker's Allowance? Nope. No company is gonna take on someone who will soon fuck off and take maternity leave and so drain the precious fucking profits, are they? So, we thought we would wait until she had eleven weeks to go before giving birth, when she would be able to request Income Support on account of my Council Tax sky-rocketing and also that she needed to start buying items for the child on the way. Guess what? Nope again! Because it is assumed that my income is going towards her upkeep, she gets nothing! So, I'd be VERY fucking interested to know where you get your bigoted, hateful shit from, because it seems to me that if you had ANY fucking experience with regard to applying for state benefits, which they make you jump through burning hoops and crawl on your belly like a fucking DOG for, you'd know better than to spout the ignorant, ill-informed shite that I quoted above. Enjoy reading the fucking Daily Mail, do you?[/quote']

That is a terrible state of affairs. Could you not like "chuck her out" then the council would be obliged to house her and give her income support.

I hope it all works out for you.

Docs definition of activism:

Anyone who does anything at all ever makes a difference and there for contributes to society and is therefore politically active. Except of course people (to paraphrase) who simply protest all the time' date=' dont work or pay taxes and demonstrate at the expense of taxpayers and naturally make no difference whatsoever.

Who are these people exactly? You clearly have some groups in mind, some examples please?

Oh and for the record Doc I dont hold people who simply vote in contempt, but I do think that [b']any system in which people simply vote to make their views known is not a democracy at all. Democracy is not about simply voting, and if you honestly think it is then you really havent thought about it very much.

Nice half veiled attempt to call me a cunt though...

All political animals are the servants of the people? This is simply naive. Some of those involved in politics are servants of the people in the sense that they are constitutionally recognised as representing their constituents. Not all of those involved in politics are elected to serve the people; many represent their own interests, party interests, or the interests of a narrow section of society such as farmers or the elderly. But I would have thought this was all fucking obvious ...

I engage in politics by your leave? Why how noble of you. Thank you Doc for letting me get involved in politics. Thank you very much.

But don't you dare say that non politcal people don't make a difference, because it's there that the difference begins.

I wanted to quote that sentence again just because its so fucking stupid and ill thought out. Who are these non political people? What precisely is this difference where does the difference begin how do you measure this difference ? I think youre trying to use it to say social responsibility but you could mean anything...

I wasn't calling you a cunt. I don't know you. If you're a benefits scrounger then you are a cunt however. I don't need to veil it.

As for the rest of it, you plainly understand nothing and would prefer to believe you live in some sort of orwellian nightmare. Wouldn't you rather have some fun and maybe get some joy out of life instead of wringing your hands and whining as if that's some sort of placebo for a social conscience. Talk to All systems fail. He's misguided in some ways but he does have a social conscience.

Dave MacDonald was manipulated? By whom? I also think you're crediting the NF with far greater intelligence than is actually the case. Played like fiddle indeed.

Do you seriously believe macdonald is the brains behind the NF? He was given his instructions and carried them out. Just because someone is a racist does not make them stupid. There are some smart cookies in the NF and by dismissing them as neanderthal morons, you set yourself up for being out manoevered...like you just were in this case.

If you can't see that, then you have a blinkered view. Not having a go at you, it just seems painfully obvious to me.

Not seeing the wood for trees perhaps?

And so on the basis of knowing just a few individuals' date=' you seek to damn the entire activist movement?

And pointless protest? I would disagree. I find (as an increasing number of people do) voting rather pointless.[/quote']

I do not. I also know many who do incredible work and not just in this country. I have friends who work for amnesty and others in greenpeace.

I am merely disgusted by those who are able to work but choose no to, thereby diverting resources away from the sections of society who genuinely need help and support. Of course, this government makes it easy for them to do it.

I did not say that folks here should not be permitted a voice. I said only that that I was tired of folks here throwing insults from afar when they have had any number of opportunities to challenge directly the opinions of those they oppose. Sure' date=' folks can express what they believe. Hell, go ahead and vote. But I am gonna have my say too.

A question. Do you know any political activists personally? No? i thought not.

Those who do not vote should have no voice? Did I attribute this remark to you? No, I did not. I was simply attempting to answer a number of the points made here by several people.[/quote']

Yes actually. My young brother is a political activist for the SSP. He has no job and is on the dole and has been for years, despite being able bodied. He also gets involed in anti hunt and anti vivsection protests. So I frequently see him and his equally parasitic friends when they drop in on their way in their untaxed and uninsured van to the next pointless protest. I suppose political activist is stretching it for him as the SSP is more of a circus act than a party.

One post.

Angry that while I'd left this discussion' date=' Doc still then continued to take swipes at me, I, instead of posting again, and in an attemp to challenge the points he'd made, sought to engage with him via pm. The response? He's ignored me. Not once, but three times. I've sought an explanation from him as to why, but still he refuses to respond. It's clear that he thinks (as I'd said I wouldn't post on this thread again) he can now attack me here with impunity.

Some points.

Voting changes little or nothing. People have chosen not to vote in great number. Why? Because they believe (and rightly so) that whichever party sits in government, not a damn thing will change.

And voting poiitical activism? lol

A contempt for those who do not take political action? I said nothing of the sort, so would ask people not to put words in to my mouth. Said only that I respect those who do take action. Throwing insults from afar is, as I've said, easy.

Most political activists do not work a job and so claim benefits? What nonsense. The folks I know who are politically active are either employed or are students.

Also, activists do not take action because they crave attention, but because they have a strong sense of justice and demand change.

Those who do not vote should be permitted no voice? Rubbish. I've never voted, and have no intention of ever doing so. My voting would lend a legitimacy to a system I despise - one whose function is to serve the interests of the established order.

That's all.[/quote']

Firstly, let me apologise for not answering your PM. I failed to notice there were unread posts there.

Seconly I was not having a go at you. I merely said I found your attitude to those engaging in their rights which were opposed to yours restrictive and undemocratic.

And I did not say most activists are scroungers I said many are which is true.

I also did not say those who don't vote should have no voice.

i was answering a post about Margaret Thatcher' date=' not James Callaghan although i would say it was probably worse when he was around.

it certainly wasn't any good if you had rubbish that needed collecting or graves needing to be dug to stick dead people in them [/quote']

Or a job to go to for more than 3 days a week or electricity to cook with.

Let's look at activism as an active role in society and making a difference in the world shall we?

Those who bother to vote make a difference. Those who work and pay taxes make a difference. Everyone who recycles makes a difference. Everyone who walks instead of taking the car makes a difference. Everyone who buys fair trade goods makes a difference. Everyone who turns their heating down by two degrees makes a diference. Giving to charity makes a difference. Living a decent life by not sponging off the state or robbing people or getting involved in violence makes a difference.

If you have a "political activist" who doesn't work or contribute to society by paying taxes, and a great many of them are like this, but simply protests all the time, waving little banners and demonstrating at the expense of every taxpayer,then he is simply a parasite who makes no difference whatsoever.

If you have an activist who openly displays his contempt for people who's interest in politics begins and ends at exercising their democratic rights and contributing to the society they live in, then this activist is simply a cunt who has missed the point.

All political animals are the servants of the people not the other way around. You engage in politics by our, the peoples' leave.

But don't you dare say that non politcal people don't make a difference, because it's there that the difference begins. Not with self important, look at me activists.

Oh ok "puppetmaster" Doc' date=' guess I'm just not as "clever" as you in spotting these Machevelian conspiracies [/quote']

Plainly not. But you know, you don't have to be clever at all. A sound knowledge of human nature and a little experience goes a long way to spotting (very obvious) manipulation.

Give it time and being conned a few times.

Who said it had anything to do with conspiracy theories? o_O

Its the way political participation works. You really do have to be stupid not to see that if you vote (and I certainly think we all should) all you do is pick between a few alternatives every four years or so. You have no control on what thos political parties do the rest of the time' date=' and no real control over whether any one of those parties forms a coherent political alternative to the other parties in the political system.

If you want to affect REAL change you must be politically active - that is involve your self in supporting groups that support issues you believe in or in parties that campaign on a number of issues. This is human behaviour not a conspiracy. Those senior members of political parties today got involved in just such a way. If you want to effect change do so to.[/quote']

Now we see the activists' contempt for the millions of voters who bother to exercise their rights. All these millions of people are out of step with reality but you're not?

Oh right he was laughing at me? He was laughing at me personally! I did not know. Thank you for telling me that Doc I did not know. And he fooled me good too! He wanted to march but (according to Doc's crystal ball) actually didn't and just wanted the publicity... The mind boggles! Nevermind the fact the NF would have got more publicity if they had actually marched... I should have listened to this Doc character and put my head in the sand and all this would have gone away. Thank you Doc I'm a changed man.

No, you're simply a fooled man. It's obvious to anyone with a glimmer of intelligence that someone was pulling his strings and through him, everybody elses' involved.

They got the result the hoped for..it was written all over his simian face as he hadn't the wit to hold it in.

you sound like you were too young to actually understand how shit a country Britain was to live in during her time in power but yeah she was a lovely woman she was;)

she used riot police to intimidate and attack people striking for better rates of pay' date=' she also removed the unions so people were forced to accept what they were being given and go back to work. she removed many industries that were costing the government money so ultimately that meant people losing their jobs and deregulating public-owned utilities and services like British Telecom and British Gas and privatising them so that meant that fatcats could hike up their prices to use these services they now owned and line their own fucking pockets! don't believe me?, then go look up the name Geoffrey Robinson and find out for yourself

there was also a lot of unemployment around that time as well and especially around the area i came from, people were barely scraping by on the social security money they were getting, she never seemed to truly give a shit about the people who were out of work, her government was only ever about removing anyone opposing her decisions and making the rich get richer by reducing income tax for the people earning higher incomes and then on top of that, she goes and introduces the poll tax, a tax that was last imposed way back in the fucking Dark Ages!, that one explained a lot about her mentality, i was surprised she didn't impose decisions to start beheading people in the Tower Of London or hanging people at Traitor's Gate sometimes, not only content with making the working classes pay income taxes that continued to rise every single year, she goes and introduces another tax as well!

yeah she really sorted out everything

for the record, John Major was only voted into power because people had gotten tired of Thatcher and Tony Blair only got voted in because people were tired of Britain being ruled by Conservatives for the best part of 20 years, and it doesn't matter who got voted in either because its the same set of rules that are applied but under a different coloured banner;)[/quote']

Sounds like you were too young to remember the previous labour government.

Workers on a three day week. All public services on strike. rubbish and rats in the street, the dead stacking up. Massive unemployment. The government neutered by the unions. Power cuts for hours several times a weeks. Gas and fuel shortages. OAPs dying of the cold. Cops on strike. Looting. Mega high taxation.

Maggie was an arse, but living under her government was 100 times better than what was before.

Poll Tax' date=' again, great idea for the English, but imposing it on Scotland a year early was just typical English arrogance.

l[/quote']

Erm..actually the idea for imposing the poll tax a year earlier in Scotland was put forward by a Fife councillor, from Dunfermline I believe.

I think it's ironic that I'm treated as a lesser human being by someone who's so vocal in opposing prejudice.

Surely political activists should be rejoicing that someone like me even takes the time to think about such issues' date=' never mind debate them.

If my opinion's not as deserving of respect as others, maybe I should just switch on the telly and vegetate,making sure I change channels at the first hint of a news program, leaving the political activists to get on with saving me, without my nasty, grubby opinions getting in the way.[/quote']

Hear hear.

why they not touring the world instead of working in a meat factory in Portlethen?

The duo I mentioned earlier have turned down several offers to tour the US and europe, mainly because they have a life and a 13 year old daughter. They've consistently refused to go to London for record deals and to tour because they're happy touring Scotland and playing in Cyprus during the summer. They've sold thousands of records in the last few years but they're don't go into the charts because they never bar code them...they're just not interested in that.

Does that make them sell outs?

Are they not allowed to mingle? Have they been banned from mingling? Do they not mingle every day of their lives? Do they exist in some hermetically sealed box only to emerge when they want to mingle? Don't be silly!

How do you prefess to know what "gollum" is thinking? Are you his psychologist? Or could this be speculation... Hmm I wonder...

They've certainly got you fooled.

As Ian said it was an exercise in media and public manipulation and it worked a treat. They played everyone like fiddles and achieved their objective...media coverage and everyone screaming about it. Saatchi and Saatchi would have charged millions for that and you lot gave it to them for free.

I said at the beginning of all this to ignore them completely, but no, it was all " protest at this and they must be stopped and oh the fascist bastards."

No wonder the fucker was laughing at you.

Voting not about "political activism" voting is a pathetic sham and the least important part of democracy. If you think that you will seriously effect change my simply voting you need your head examined.. Most political research charting political activism start with voting as the most basic form of participation on any continuoum of participation. If you want effect actual policies you must get involved in a party at a local level' date=' otherwise all you do is pick between several vehicles rather than influence where they actually go.

I my self have generally found AllSystemsFail to be a rare voice of reason on most issues. Though I might not agree with everything he says, he puts forward logical, reasoned arguments unlike a large number of posters.[/quote']

I too find ASF interesting on some issues. I may disagree with a lot of what he says but I'll defend to the death his right to think and say it. Unlike the man himself.

I'm not getting into any conspiracy theory nonsense about politics or the "way the government controls us" shite. I've got better things to do than associate with the bottom feeding clowns in today's politics. As they say, the shite always rises to the top. The smells that surround it are the political activists.

I'm with Ian here too. If you vote, you're a political activist. And opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one. I have more respect for an ordinary voter than I do for anarchists like all systems fail who want to tear it all down. Unlike ASF, however, I believe he has the right to his opinion and consider it just as valid as mine and would never seek to deprive him of his platform, like he continually advocates for people or groups that do not share his view. eg the NF, non politically active people, Ian ect.

Exactly' date=' marching down Union Street wasn't going to gain them anything, apart from abuse and a big stewards bill.

Now they can largely avoid the first and totally avoid the second.[/quote']

And of course, no police supervision therefore guaranteeing violence.

Yep. I was there. Great night. Good duo in the bar too. There's something disturbing about men that age with ponytails though.

um' date=' i'm actually pretty good mates with mark (hobbes)......i'm reserving opinion on this whole matter though because i don't like the idea of people continually jumping down my throat when i'm willing to just let bygones be bygones.

on the subject of the march not being allowed to go ahead- woo hoo. although there will apparently be a NF presence in the centre on that day. they're going 'xmas shopping'.[/quote']

Wonderful. Instead of a tragic NF march, monitored and controlled by the police, we now get these provocative nutters wandering around loose, therefore guaranteeing acts of violence. Well done to the defenders of free speech. I hope you're all there making sure it's you lot who get nutted and not some innocent bystander.

That's exactly why they out-thought everyone. People view them as "risible monkeys" and "knuckle dragging neanderthals"' date=' (which is dangerously close to what they believe I think) and not as human beings with the same mental capacity as non-racists.*

Just because there is no logic behind their belief doesn't mean they can't apply logic.

*obviously I'm not talking about gollum here. He did his job well and probably got a pat on the head fom his master.[/quote']

What you say is true. What I'm saying is that reasonable, non racist decent people are not going to turn into NF supporters just because they march down union street, quite the opposite in fact.