Snakebite

If you look at how troublesome teenagers are being punished these days it consists of social workers taking them out for either day trips to the seaside or camping in the wilderness. Yes, to some extent being nice to them does work since most troublesome teenagers are never really used to it. There is the psyhcologcial benefits of this but it only seems to work with a minority of cases, since most of them will re-offend.

Should we just lock the rest up or is there something better we can do to help them be normal?

One point of view is that it is a Mental health problem? Therefore what type of methods should be used to treat them, should they be admitted under the care of the NHS?

I detect the faintest whiff of bullshit.

If you had watched Newsnight yesterday then you would know that these individuals were not on a watch list' date=' and were not ever suspected of terrorist activity.

They could as easily have been that bloke you walked past on the street this morning.

So before introducing another rambling justification for ID cards, how about getting some facts straight.[/quote']

Okay my comments were made before the press anouncement. However one of them did have their name on a list of potential suspects that supposedly had links with al qaeda although that list contained at least another thousand people.

The watch list still exists though and information about those on the list will be held.

Yes of course! Forcing people to do something they dont want to is always the answer to making things all better' date=' its the worst idea since tight pink polo shirts[/quote']

So how do you control troublesome teenagers, give them money & fluffy pillows, I think not. You have to show them who's boss before they will actually listen to you. They might not like it but how else do you get them to listen.

Even more pacifist methods like denying them access to the internet if they have been bad doesnt work these days cause they then try and accuse you of abusing them for not letting them use the internet (happened in the US, went to court and everything). Parents hands to some extent are tied behind their backs since if they are seen to discipline their child in any form it is seen as abuse and if they dont they are seen as unfit parents when their kids go on a rampage. It's catch 22.

The army method may be strict but it works if done correctly

What is your suggestion to tackle this ever increasing problem?

all without using a single ID card

"they have been caught quicker"

but they would still have blown shit up.

They were probably found on MI5's watch list when they cross checked forensic evidence from the blast sites against it. If they were on it MI5 would hold enough information including possibly fingerprints & DNA to enable them to identify them and locate them. Which is similar to what ID cards will do but for the entire population instead of just certain suspected individuals.

It would teach them resentment and hatred.

No it would teach them to behave themselves

seems that the plot has shifted from "fighting terrorism" to making sure baddies can't STEAL STUFF.

(don't you love the british psyche' date=' you get more time in jail for stealing some rich twats diamonds / gold / money than you would for noncing a kid or killing someone with a car)...

seen the latest news...how would an ID card stop these dudes ?

(from the BBC) :

British born bombers: Your reaction

What is your reaction to the news that the attacks in London were carried out by British born bombers?[/quote']

Well as far as I can tell they have arrested some people in connection with the london Bombings and recovered some addtional evidence in Leeds & at a car in a carpark in Luton

Could you also ask how 20 billion became 200 each. Not that i'm bothered because real criminals will find a way round it really quickly' date=' just wondering who does the arithmetic?

Last time I checked there was about 55 million people in Britain. Who has a calculator?!!?![/quote']

Okay if you want to be exact Its 363.63 each per person in tax stolen each year based on 55 million people.

The 200 each came from post 46 from Frosty Jack

Where are you getting your figures from?

Because an impartial report from the London School of Economics seems to disagree.

Par example -

"the government estimates that identity fraud crimes may cost up to 1.3 billion a year' date=' but only 35 million of this amount can be addressed by an ID card."

That's 2.7%.[/quote']

I agree Identity theft costs 1.3 billion but fraud costs more see below

The 20 billion taken by organised crime come from this source on page 1 half way down

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/docs4/Id_Cards_Briefing.pdf

The ID cards website is on this link

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/comrace/identitycards/index.html

And the Identity Cards Bill is at this link

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200506/cmbills/009/2006009.htm

Can see it from both sides. . .

Im really un-comfy hearing protestors being labelled anarchists for seemingly just protesting. Can also see it from the police side as it wasnt an official protest. From the news coverage' date=' though, I think the riot police and use of batons was a bit heavy-handed. I would have used a water cannon and incited a wet t-shirt competition. [/quote']

Doesnt help if your protestors are wielding potatoes with nails stuck through them so they could be thrown at police.

I heard a minority of the protestors (probably the anarchists that came up to cause trouble) in the eco camp outside stirling were shouting out praises for Al-Qaeda after the bombings in london, which I think is sick.

What about Boot camp for all of these Troublesome teenagers instead of prison?

Would have a similar effect as national service but without the reduction of quality to our armed forces.

It would teach them respect.

Here is details of what is done in the USA:

http://www.bootcampsforteens.com/

The Biometric information that is collected will also be used to help catch people that commit crime. Well at least those that are careless enough to leave clues in the form of fingerprints etc. Which on the most part are the majority of criminals.

or make it more challenging and interesting for the criminals who know how to do it "full time".

you seem to forget that it's the criminals that are one step ahead of the Law.

remember' date=' the sasser worm was created by a 17 year old (caught, granted), but that's horses and barn doors, really.

I still think that "slowing" terrorism (as it'll never be stopped) is for more people round the world to think "peace" and not "us vs them".

spend billions on finding out how to make people see the other side, that's the key.

(I vote a big ball pool, with kittens to hold when not playing in the pool....who can resist a kitten and a play in a ball pool ?)...

* then there was peace * a-men[/quote']

The money the government will save by using ID cards to tackle fraud will initally be used to recoup the cost of introducing ID cards. Afterwhich the additional money that is saved can be used for better education & health care

The best bit is that' date=' according to Jack McConnell, you won't need an ID card for "devolved services" which means essentially that you don't need one to receive health treatment, but you will to pick up benefits/pension. And if the police stop you for a terrorism offence they can ask you for your ID card, but not for burglary, because terrorism is reserved to Westminster.

Madness.

As for stopping crime. It doesn't, more police would. I was told at the weekend that it would end problems with kids trying to buy a 15 cert. game/movie but not being able to prove they were 15.

I think for the cost, you'd want something slightly more sophisticated than a glorified proof of age card.[/quote']

The identity card bill is a national bill. Westminister will ensure it is used to cover the entire country. It has to be done this way for the system to work otherwise you will get people that are not entitled to free medical care travelling from England to Scotland for treatment because they know they wont be asked for ID. All that will do is overload our already streched Health Service.

What bollocks.

Get an ID card' date=' it'll cost you less tax that way.

I've been trying to count the many different justifications which have been used for the introduction of these things. So far about the only thing they're not promising they can provide is a cheese and pickle toastie and a hand-job.[/quote']

The average person is paying 200 each extra in tax every year already to replace the government funds that are either being fraudulently claimed in benefit or because of VAT that isnt being given to the government due to piracy by organised crime.

If ID cards cards are introduced then it will tackle fraud & Identity theft

You won't need an ID card to mug someone' date=' break into their house, steal their car, sell them drugs etc. How does this stop crime exactly?[/quote']

It will help stop fraud & identity theft

its the sheer cost of ID cards that puts me off' date=' surely the money could be spent better?

i honestly dont think they'd make that much difference, terrorists will always find a way sadly, all this 'we'll win the war on terrorism' shite is bollocks, it is an unwinnable war but bush n blair know that deep down, what else are they meant to say?[/quote']

As I said in previous posts it will save money in the long term since we wont have the 20 billion a year cost in taxes incurred because of organised crime since fraud will be drastically cut and very hard to commit if the ID cards are used properly by financial institiutions, tax office & benefits office.

To setup ID cards initially will cost around 15-20 billion but that is a one off fee. The running costs will be a lot less and government departments will actually spend less since the system will lead to greater efficiency and remove the need for departments to input the same data 30 or so times into several different systems since there will only be one centralised system so the data will be inputed once only.

Also there will only be a fee for ID cards whilst they are still voluntary & they willl be issued with your passport. Once they become compulsary the ID card Bill that is being passed through Parliament states that no fee will be charged. See my previous posts for the website link to the bill.

Nope. That's the same train of thought that makes people think you have to be an utter cunt to people to make them work efficiently.

Being bawled at by some twat wouldn't have taught me discipline' date=' it'd have made me feel utterly worthless. The most I needed to teach me not to do something again was a smack on the bum. But that has taught me that it's right to use force. Which is probably why I used to punch my TV off the wall when I'd be getting beat by the computer on computer games.[/quote']

If you have a troublesome teenager that wont listen to anyone you have to literally knock them off of their little perch by teaching humiliation if only to get them to listen to you so you can then teach them respect.

Albeit the army's way of doing this may be old fashioned but it works. After initial training you have turned them into some one that respects others and feels they are respected as part of a team of people.

No.

I've managed to turn out perfectly well without national service' date=' as have all the folk I hang around with (not in council estates terrorising auld folk I might add). Why should the army do the job parents should be doing? Why should prefectly well turned out teenagers be condemned to being shouted at by some sadistic cunt who thinks he has the authority (and right) to treat people like shit because he has a few gold arrows (can't think of the proper name at the moment) on his arm? I'd have hated national service, in fact it'd probably have made me turn out worse.

No, what we need is for certain types of people to not be allowed to bring up kids. Or steralised even. May sound a BIT extreme, but let's face it, there ARE families out there who basically breed criminals.[/quote']

Sometimes you have to be harsh to teach discipline & respect, thats why the british army is the most respected military force in the western world.

What if national service was limited to say troublesome teenagers or maybe a lesser approach of Boot Camp instead for them to teach them to respect others.

The main reason some children dont respect others is because their parents dont respect others therefore the children follow by example so as generations pass it just gets worse.

Heres a different topic for debate - National Service - Should it be reinstated to improve society?

Around the world today several countries still require you to carry out upto 2 years of national service between the age of 16-18 years. This is intended to teach respect, honor and a sense of discipline to young peoples lives as well as providing an adequate military service for the country.

The UK up until 1960 required men to carry out national service, see link below that details the history of National Service in the UK:

http://www.national-army-museum.ac.uk/pages/nat-service.html

These days the growing number of teenagers that either are constantly in trouble, have no respect for their elders of which some now have ASBO's issued against them, is getting ridiculous.

Some people say that our children are not being taught any values because either the parents are have the same attitude or their children have no respect for them due to external influences.

Before national service was scrapped there was very little trouble in our neighbourhoods and people didnt have to hide behind locked doors because our children were taught to respect others.

So should we bring it back to teach our children respect, honor & discipline?

But there's a fourth equation in all of this... POINT - To turn the Human race into a chicken coop' date=' 100%productivity, 0% Fucking about. We are losing the War on Freedom, just because the Sun newspaper does'nt let you know there is a war, it does'nt mean there isn't one.[/quote']

Is their hope??

Only if us (the western civilisation) can get off our arses and be bothered to do something' date=' unfortunatly our method's are deemed to be in direct conflict with the new act on terrorism. So method's are few and far between, even me writing this is a kinda risk!! Avenge my imprisonment !! I fi get put in one..

SO COME ON BRITAIN STOP FUCKING ABOUT...[/quote']

So what should the western civilisation do? what is the correct course of action?

We are terrorised by these islamic (if you can call them that since they dont seem to preach it) extremists that follow a crazed Saudi Prince (Osama Bin Laden) who got exiled from Saudi Arabia.

Security & safety of our families & loved ones are the most important thing to be concerned about.

As long as terrorism exists the need to feel safe may mean a reduction of what we believe to be our civil liberties to help track down these terrorists. Even today 3 more people have been detained after a tip off at Heathrow airport under the terrorism act in order to protect our country.

i can %100 guarentee you that it doesnt cost me 200 a year.

It does to some extent if your on benefits or a student since all of this money that is stolen by organised crime prevents the government from using that same money for say increasing your benefits or providing better healthcare & education.

20 billion a year will go a long way to improve things

Oh' date=' bugger, well, we're definitely fucked now. Geeks a gogo. By the way, who is this child? Charles Clarke's eldest? Naive doesn't come close. 'Mummy, my teddy's stopped breathing..'[/quote']

If it wasnt for your so called geeks this website wouldnt exist for you to harp on about teddy bears.

Fair enough there are incompetent people in the UK but I guess you will always have that. It is however as in many cases the fact that these systems that didnt work initially all point to one thing and that is that the people in charge are not always able to understand the complexities of writing software that works. They are put into a position where they decide when to start using new systems and they always seem to insist it is done before they have been fully tested. Therefore you will always get problems initially. Which is the price of politics.

I believe that the government will hopefully have learned their lesson and will ensure the National Identity Register as it is being called will be fully tested before implementation since they cannot now afford to make mistakes especially since what happened on thursday in London.

If you can give us something constructive to show the cons of implementing ID cards im all for you to express it.

and the naievety that this technology can't be replicated (in any way)...

if it's the biometric part that's the hard part' date=' will this only be used at airports / ports ?

or, are bobbies going to get portible retinal scanners for the beat ?

[/quote']

See the following website that gives details of what the Airwave system can do:

http://www.fife.police.uk/Airwave/home.php

Note at the bottom of the website page about the ability already to transmit & receive fingerprint details.

I think I am coming round to this form of fighting crime' date=' if any crime is comitted after they are introduced, will we all get a rebate of say a pound each, for every crime comitted that could have been stopped with the card ?

[/quote']

Your missing the point, fraud by organised crime currently costs every person 200 a year each.

As far a fraud alone is concerned ID cards will help put a stop to it especially with benefit fraud.

Im not saying it will stop people murdering everyone or theives stealing things, but the biometric information will help catch them.