Snakebite

I realise people are allowed to change their minds and all' date=' but you seem to have performed a rather drastic transformation given your comments here

And your point is?

That particular topic point was about the licencing trade having access to your Information and misusing it. I still believe that you will not see biometric scanners in your local shop or pubs like I said in an earlier post within the ID cards debate, only government departments, security services and financial institutions will get access.

Under correct control ID cards will work

I really don't see how that followed from me asking you directly to point out where I called you a cunt. At least I didn't stoop to your level of trying to claim that logical thinking was all that was required.

I never said you called me cunt

I thought you told us these things weren't going to be compulsory to begin with?

The government approach now is now veering more towards it being compulsary sooner rather than later maybe as early as 2007-8 but in any case you wont get a passport without giving up your biometric information.

So unless you never want to ever leave the UK you will have to give up your biometric information. In any case once it is compuslary you will have to give it up anyway otherwise make sure you dont drop the soap when your serving time for your descision. Dont forget when going to prison they will take your biometric information from you anyway.

Sorry' date=' where did I call you a cunt in this thread?

Mind you, IT expert is a much more frightening insult. I might cry now..[/quote']

I guess it's not your fault you feel the urge to insult everyone that thinks differently to you. Maybe you should see the doctor about it

That doesn't mean I have to like it.

I'll be more than happy to join the many thousands who are going to refuse one.

You'd better start saving for that 2500 fine

Your posts thus far lead one to believe you were born without the chromosome to activate humour.

Usually when people use sarcasm in written form parenthesis or smiley faces are used to emphasise it.

Keep trying though' date=' you'll learn one day. [/quote']

Well im sorry that I didnt call you a bunch of cunts then eh!!!

I shouldn't have to stoop down to your level should I?

Now getting back on topic. Im for ID cards and it is going to happen, whether you like it or not as the government is now forcing the legislation through due to the bombings in London.

Just done a quick google on this. Far too much time on my hands....

If you encrypt something using 40-bit encryption....that's several billion different possible combinations. Apparently if you use 128-bit encryption (which is the standard for Internet SSL encryption)' date=' that's 300 billion trillion times more combinations than for 40-bit.....the deciphering of which is computationally unfeasible.

So, just because you're details are converted to 1s and 0s, does not necessarily make it vulnerable to attack. If it was that simple, Internet Banking would never have got off the ground.[/quote']

My point exactly

If it was going to be simple to hack we would all have been robbed of our money by now.

Woah horsie.

Your exact quote was this:

Now' date=' I never suggested that Ian WAS an IT expert, you however state quite clearly that IT experts think they know everything about computers.

The clue is in the use of 'expert'. I would trust someone who knows IT more than I would trust someone who claims to be a 'logical thinker'. Now, even if that person is not Ian, it most definitely is not you.

And let me rearrange your quote to reflect what I have surmised of yourself.

"He is clearly not a logical thinker, at best he may be an amateur who reads Government press releases and websites and believes every word."

[img']http://www.satan.org.uk/irc/mrlogic.jpg

I take you've never heard of sarcasm then

Let me guess' date=' the knowledge of someone who is an 'IT expert' is nothing compared to your 'logical thinking'?[/quote']

He aint an IT expert at best he may be an amateur that reads too many IT forums and believes every word. He's probably Mr anti-microsoft

There is a higher risk of your identity being stolen right now just because the government doesnt have a copy of your biometric information.

If I was an IT expert who thought they knew everything' date=' shouldn't you be listening since your knowledge seems to come off the back of a government corn flake packet.

If they can't hack into the computers (big IF), they'll find a way. Blackmail, kidnapping, whatever. The potential profits make it inevitable.

THEY DON'T NEED BODY PARTS BECAUSE AS SOON AS THE INFORMATION IS TRANSFORMED INTO NUMBERS YOU CAN CRACK IT.!!!

I hope that's big enough for you to read this time.

What is it about all you anti-establishment buggers?

So how do you physically get through customs then do you whip out your laptop and flash them yer numbers when they ask you to sit in front of a bloody scanner so they can scan your iris.

Dont tell me you will have faked the ID card cracked the encryption and substituted your info for someone elses all whilst waiting in the fucking queue with that super computer in your back pocket.

Not fucking likely if that was the case why not ransack every bank in the world of all their money. I mean if you have that much capability why not use it to take the money directly, it's much more profitable than stealing identities

I never expected a British person to become a suicide bomber in London but I do expect someone to hack into a computer.

And all it needs is one spy' date=' greedy bastard or mistake for it all to become redundant.

Just because you haven't heard about it doesn't mean it hasn't happened. I imagine in normal non-war circumstances they would need humans to arm and fire the missiles.[/quote']

Dont tell me, your one of these IT experts that think they know everything about computers.

Fair enough everything is subject to exploitation by everyone.

So when will people start stealing your body parts for your plan to work.

Either you woke up this morning with part of your brain missing or you have even less of a clue and are just ranting on because you havent looked at the facts with a logical viewpoint.

Okay you believe that everyone is incompetent and everything is flawed, that is your opinion is it not. So are you incompetent? if not why not? Then use that same reasoning for other people that might also be competent and what do you get someone that can actually do their job well believe it or not and actually make things work properly

Yes. Yes' date=' I'm sure they have. Well that's me reassured.

Come on. Truth now. Who do you work for? How much bullshit are they feeding you? And why are you believing it all, to the extent that you're disseminating it here as irrefutable fact?[/quote']

It's bloody common sense if you look at it from a logical point of view. Okay Im not an IT Security Boffin but im a logical thinker which is enough for me to figure out whats required to be put in place for ID cards to work.

You seem to believe everyone that works for the government or just all of these IT folk that work for the government are completely daft with no common sense.

They're spending enough money on the system that I would hope that there was at least one person with a brain that will already have thought about what i've mentioned already. If you think not then your expectations for the british people must be very low.

How's about having some faith that not everyone is incompetent. Say for yourself do you believe your competent in what your good at. If yes, then why cant someone else be as well.

The technology for that type of encryption system is in existence it just has to be used right with the appropiate number and types of identifiers and access keys to keep the information from prying eyes.

How many times has say the Nuclear arsenal been hacked into therefore allowing someone to launch a missile? The answer is none of any significance since we havent ever had any nuclear missiles launched by a hacker. Thats because someone with a brain has thought it through.

Load of WANK. How the fuck do you possibly know that? Qualify one word of that.....go on' date=' i dare you, i double dare you![/quote']

If I can think of it, and im only taking a basic logical approach to this, then im sure the people that are implementing the system have already thought of it.

The rotating keycode systems do exist, AMEC for one uses it already. The rest is just common sense if you think about how to make it secure.

I can see the following security protocols possibly being put in place with probably some more that I haven't thought of yet.

1. Unique Scanning terminal ID number
   
2. Dedicated data link address cross referenced against unique terminal ID for identification
   
3. list of authorised Users of tied to the unique terminal ID
   
4. Rotating Keycode card which changes on a by minute basis which will probably have it's own encryption protocols
   
5. Biometric information used along with maybe a personal pin number for each authorised user on top of the rotating keycode to gain access
   
6. High level of Public/Private key encryption thas uses the rotating keycode information to generate the encryption keys to transmit your data for verification
   

Which is all perfectly OK' date=' but not perfect.

Obviously everyone working there will have impeccable ID card stats. You really have no idea about security, do you?[/quote']

The only people that will have any sort of access to your biometric information will be the security services. Even those people that will scan in the information at the passport office wont be able to read what they have scanned in.

You have to remember that there will be several levels of user access & security protocols and only the highest levels of user will get access to your biometric data. Okay governments and security services could be infiltrated but access will be limited to only a few who will have been thoroughly vetted.

You don't think it'll be that easy' date=' but still possible. That's the point, if even one person can hack into the system it becomes worthless.[/quote']

But it aint going to be some joe bloggs with a home PC. Several supercomputers may still not be enough to give a short enough turnaround in cracking it before the encryption changes which will probably be on a by minute basis i.e rotating security code whereby authorised persons are given a rotating keycode card which matches the current security code for that particular minute. Is used already by large companies like AMEC for remote user access to their systems. if one is stolen it could be changed to a backup rotating keycode card system within a few hours which isnt enough time for someone to use the information on it to hack into it.

Is this your first computer?

Yes' date=' the database will log it, unless you go back and delete it from the logs!

It will need something confirmed, it'll probably be trapdoor encryption, which means once you have ripped the password files (and covered your tracks by deleting your intrusion from the logs) you can work at them at your leisure.

Read some about computer (in)secutrity before harping on about some panacea which will never work in a safe and practical manner in the real world. Waste of fucking money!!!![/quote']

And im sure that the people involved in putting this database together have already thought of that and done something to prevent it from happening. Best way of preventing it from being hacked is to apply security measures using the hackers point of view of what if. Unless you think they are thick i dont think it will be that easy.

to be honest considering what they need to do' date=' do you not think that is a rather unrealistic budget? We're not talking ordinary run of the mill technology here, and as ian says what about the running costs after it has been set up something like this will take millions and millions to run a year.[/quote']

But thats the point it will make government departments cheaper to operate since they all will use the same system instead of 30 or so different ones.

The cost saved by reducing fraud due organised crime alone comes to about 20 billion a year.

Therefore in the long run we should pay less taxes or pay the same and get improved health & education services etc.

And also that they won't wipe out all crime' date=' just some of the most basic credit card and benefit fraud. Credit card companies can go whistle if they think I'm paying for a system to help them make more profits.[/quote']

What about the elimination of benefit fraud which in turn will reduce your taxes

Never mind the central database (CSA anyone) to integrate it all. Which no-one will be able to hack in to.

And I suppose every criminal will have several supercomputers in their back pocket to hack into this database. how long will it take them? Probably not quick enough before the encryption key is changed.

Access to the database will require biometric information from someone that is authorised to use the scanning terminals on top of the encryption key.

Even then you will most likely only get limited read only access and the database will log it.

Im also sure the database will not transmit the biometric information to the person enquiring about someones identity, it will only confirm it.

so where is the money going to come from for all these fancy retinal scanners and finger print scanners? these things dont come cheap and for this to be really "secure" surely everyone will need to be scanned when they come into the country.

Thats what the 15-20 Billion budget is for.

That's my point fuckwit' date=' [b']almost impossible, not impossible. Do you really have such disregard for the modern organised criminal that you can't see them recruiting any disillusioned IT grads, hackers/crackers etc to blow an ID card system out of the water.

EDIT: And then you've got the banks, credit card companies et al saying that someone couldn't have stolen your identity because biometric data doesn't lie. Sheesh.

I dont think IT grads are going to surgically alter your iris since it is the physical key of that person trying to get into the country which cannot be copied.

The biometric information given at that particular moment by the person has to match both the Information on their ID card and the National Identity Register, the latter of which will not be accessable to unauthorised persons.

I'm getting tired saying this' date=' if they can clone your mobile, your credit card, your identity, all you do with ID cards is make it harder, not impossible!

People who check these cards will suspect less because they are being touted as "secure security". Bollocks.

As soon as you turn something into a pile of numbers, someone can crack the code, as soon as one person can, the real criminal element will buy the info or employ their own staff of IT renegades to do it. If you know it can be done it's easier to do it.

ID cards might stop petty crime to a point, but any serious criminal/terrorist will have contacts to get "legit" ID's. How's it going to stop suicide bombers like London, never been in trouble, kaboom. Get real!

Waste of money!!![/quote']

You have to bear in mind that when entering the country, or using government departments or applying for credit whereby your identity must be confirmed. That both you and the ID card must be used together, unless both the ID card & your biometric information given at that particular time matches the record on the National Identity Register you will be unable in those circumstances to assume someone elses identity since it is almost impossible to forge a physical person's biometrics i.e. your Iris for example. The same will apply if you are European, American, Canadian etc since even if ID cards are not introduced in the UK the EEC is now implementing the legal requirement of Biometric passports throughout the whole of Europe inline with the US.

Once in force if you will not be able to come into the country without biometric ID. Your biometric information will be taken and checked at the point of applying for a Visa at a British embassy before you entering the country. So anyone wishing to enter the UK will have been more thoroughly vetted before they are let in. Even Asyum seekers will have their biometric information taken and will be detained until their identity can be confirmed and checked.

precisely because the terrorists have begun recruiting people with no criminal records or links to terrorism to carry out atrocities' date=' as we saw in London.

I am not insinuating that this list is useless, but you seem all too willing to believe everything the government tells you. A bit like Winston Smith's nieghbour, whose name escapes me, and we all know what happened to him...[/quote']

I not saying that im for everything the governemnt is proposing but the issue on ID cards has more Pro's than con's, especially with regards to fraud & identity theft,

So im for it.

Oh my yes' date=' I would MUCH rather be in Iraq against my will than at University.

WHAT A FABULOUS IDEA.[/quote']

If you use a BOOT CAMP form of treatment for troublesome teenagers, they will only be there if they have broken the law and they will not be a part of the armed services (so no serving in Iraq). However it should have a similar effect as the army's basic training with regards to teaching discipline and respect. Which would hopefully deter them from re-offending if they know that they have to endure it again.

No they weren't. You posted at 23.20' date=' Newsnight showed the police statement at 22.30

It really doesn't matter if the info on this list will be 'held' it would have done no good in preventing the crime from taking place.[/quote']

Well im sorry I wasnt watching TV that night. I didnt see it till the following day.

The only way you can ever 100% stop terrorism is if the government revokes every civil liberty you currently have, which in effect would turn the country into a police state. I seriously do not see this happening so the government can only do as much as they can to help prevent it using every scrap of information at their disposal whilst minimising the reduction of our civil liberities, which means that sometimes the terrorists will win.

Did you know that since 9/11 the security services have already stopped several terrorist attacks from happening in the UK using this very information that you think is no use. The attacks in london were just the latest attempt, which unfortunately slipped through.