Rob_86

No I respect that, and I'll explain my views best I can. Firstly there is the fact that music does influence people hugely, personality wise, while on the whole games don't do this. For example, I know a lot of people who grew up listening to punk music, who are now into their ethics, or into their punk anti-authority thing (or were lol) whereas I know nobody who does the same with games. The only real personality influence there seems to be is influencing them to like games, not influencing them to act how the guys in the games do etc. I'm not saying this is the same for everyone, but it is a general rule which seperates the issues somewhat. Secondly, music is more accesible. You can hear it at a gig, otuside a gig, get an essence even from a name on a poster, a forum or a myspace page. You don't get the same sort of involvement with games etc. Thirdly, the subject matter itself is different. While there are games that involve violence, or perhaps even rape in small degrees, there are not games promoting specific issues (to my knowledge) and if there were, perhaps the two would be a lot more similar and there would be a similar problem. For example, you don't get games called 'Punch your wife' or 'rape the bitch'. And even if there were such mainstream games, I would imagine there are a lot of people who could quite happily play it without becoming violent towards their wives, or rapists - but you can certainly see how it would be a bad influence on a lot of people playing it.

The differences between the two examples are numerous. As already stated, music is a much different media than games, and as such influences people differently. What about the addition that wifebeater suggest domestic abuse is a good thing, whereas GTA doesn't do the same of it's issues - it simply lets you play imaginary roles involving it. I can see what you are saying, and how going down a path of banning different pieces of art or forms of media is a dangerous assault on freedom of speech, among others - and I completely agree. After all, censorship obviously seeks only to create the type of society it wishes to avoid. However, it doesn't mean that right minded individuals shouldn't think about their actions, and bands shouldn't think about their responsibilities when playing. Similarly, there is a strong case for state intervention when something does cross over from the realms of GTA, to the realms of promoting race hating violence etc. Whether or not that is a good thing in the bigger picture who knows.

No it isn't just music, but music is very different from the other art forms people use, pretty obvious I would have thought, but hey who am I to argue with an expert who judges a persons arguments first and foremost on whether they are a student or not. Determining what is irnoic? Doesn't really matter - a lack of clearness on boundaries doesn't indicate a lack of an issue. If someone is going out clearly not putting any signs across other than 'domestic abuse is good' then that's crossed the line hasn't it, even though it is meant to be ironic. And I believe wrong? Well I reckon my argument is pretty sound, wouldn't say much for yours though - I have no vested interest in this cause and am just using simple reason, you however seem to be the opposite. Feel free to throw some insults my way if it makes you feel better?

I think on the most part computer games aren't particularly damaging, and those that are have different age ratings etc. You certainly wouldn't want a maleable young brain playing highly violent games though, that's obviously a poor idea. As for the second part that these things haven't affected you, I don't see why they should have - different situations, and you're probably not one of those that is easily affacted by that stuff anyway, I'm not saying everyone is. I don't think music/games etc are to blame for things, I think that kind of link is incredibly complicated, and the pro's outwiegh the cons on the whole - but if you make rousing Nazi anthems, odss on you will influence a few people's views in terrible ways, similarly if you make songs glorifying domestic abuse, you will do the same. Simple really. All I'm saying is in this situation, it seems to me theres not a strong defence like there is for violent video games, or for the other irony based music of the same type.

That's not my rationale - my rationale is if something which isn't clearly ironic promotes domestic violence (or any other discriminatory act) then it is dangerous to some of those taking it on board, especially in a genre in which being different from the mainstream is treasured- and whether you like it or not, that's sound judgement of this situation I believe. I don't know any of those songs that you are talking of, so won't judge, but I'm sure wifebeater aren't the only band in the world that have made this mistake - however I would imagine many bands manage to be ironic without doing so. And thanks for the patronising comment at the end, but no I am not a student, perhaps you could show a little more respect to polite discussion.

I would disagree with that cheese_dust, we live in a cause and effect world. People aren't evil, they just make choices based on their lives/experiences etc, and occasionally they do bad things - some a lot more than others obviously. If you accidentally influence someone to do something terrible, then you can't really take any massive blame or anything. But if you're ironically preaching that thing, then it is pretty obvious that people can take bad things away with them from it (depending on the situation). As for wifebeater not being manly or tough or anything, I don't see this as a great issue whether they are or not. Was simply observing the situation, it matters little whether or not they are following mainstream 'cool' opinion or not really. The 'cult of machismo' isn't particularly linked to acting macho in a tough guy way though, it was just something that I thought summed up a certain point on a good deal of modern anarcho punk. And as for not knowing anything about the band, well I know enough - thats kind of my point. I'm not hugely into them, but I do know of them, and have tried to find out whether it is ironic or not after seeing threads about gigs and stuff - purely for my own interest. And I think the points I've made are pretty valid ones to be honest.

In response to earlier comments in this discussion, it isn't just anarcho punk that has begun to turn away from ethical persuasions - it has been gradually increasing in society for years, and it just so happens that a few anarcho punk bands have decided to follow suit. Its what Richard Ryder (the psychologist not the comedian, in case anyone knows of him!) calls the 'Cult of Machismo' - ie, how it's cool not to care and all that. I guess it just shows even anarcho punks aren't above following the mainstream. As for the wifebeater controversy, I have read a few posts on the point and am confused as to why people are defending against the fact that it could be seen as an offensive project for any band to take up/lead to influencing young folks views on the subject for the worse. It seems most people on here will take the high ground on freedom of speech, and also admit that domestic abuse is wrong. But is it not obvious how a band making a joke of domestic abuse could be influential upon a young persons mind, even if they don't intend to be? The main defence is that you weren't being serious/wanted to piss a few folks off - well newsflash, a lot of people into the punk scene are folks who take a lot from their music - and it doesn't matter what the intention behind it is, people hearing the songs/attending gigs etc might well take something quite sick away with them. Unfortunately your 'intentions' are not enough to stop this from happening. And on the subject of how comedians get away with being ironic, well that is exactly what comedians are - people making a living of of such things. (These two froms of performance are different in a number of ways which I would imagine have some relevance here, ie the fact people into music will take a lot of the subject of music into their hearts, such is the nature of this particular artform, whereas the same isn't generally true of comedy) Those comedians that do advocate such extreme violence promoting views, without a hint of irony, or without any back information that it is indeed just an act, are as bad as a band that does the same thing (though no modern comedians like this come to mind). And for me, when I heard of a new band called wife beater (although I must admit I am not as much into anarcho punk as others) i assumed it was a piss take to be honest, but theres not a hint of it being so anywhere, and thats where the danger comes in isn't it. People are easily influenced (as those anarcho punks that have bowed to minimal societal influence to drop ethics from their music have showed) and I can't see how anyone can really defend a band that is undoubtedly going to have this influence, regardless of intentions or the personalities of the guys in the band (who I have never met, but assume are nice enough guys from the posts I have read).