Rob_86

Oh right, no I spend quite enough time in this thread without needing a second account as it happens! Perhaps I could respond in the same accusative type by suggesting you are a proponent of flashing at a local well-known gig venue?

I don't get why it is less important/more condemnable for someone to be discussing an issue of music such as this than say how it sounds? I wouldn't say anyone in this thread has been on their high horse, it's not like anyone has been overly upset or offended - just discussing the ethical implications of certain things. In the process certain folk have gotten pretty angry and defensive about it (as happens in all issues of this nature), but not many involved in the actual discussion have.

So if we all speak rubbish like this filled with weird existentialist accusations, is it a certainty that the thread won't be closed?!

I have heard this point external to this thread too, and find it one of the more worrying aspects of this issue that has quite often been looked over.

It's still music discussion though (all be it the ethical implications of), i was under the impression 'politics/current affairs' thread was for those issues unrelated to music?

Haha defensive much?!

What on earth? Who is Rune? Do you guys get a lot of folks who challenge your opinions, and then you basically piss them off to the point where they don't come back?! Must be nice to have a forum free of actual debate! What a great scene.

Erm no, I'm not particularly angry and I'm not called Dave...Just raising some points, though I realise that most people on the scene don't wanna do anything but take the piss out of folk because that is 'punk'. So I'm sorry for challenging any of your views, I hope you haven't shed too many tears. I see what you're saying - what a brilliant joke you have played. I completely forgot that behaviour, especially when involving ethical issues, should be entirely based on who you can make think you are a dick, and not the harm you can do acting like a dick. How genius. I totally fell for it, as my whole argument has of course been based around how I thought you were all sexists - not how regardless of this fact damage could be done. Well done on being right in the middle of the issue though, and yet still completely misunderstanding it! And no I wouldn't say I am particularly into the scene, unlike some I don't base my views or behaviours on what other people want me to do/ what is currently cool to do in punk bands - perhaps one day you will mature and see that too - or is not 'punk' to act responsible? Sorry I'm not very 'scene', please enlighten me.

The analogy was not used to prove any of those things - and as with all analogies that work, it was an example which has similarities in the relevant parts. 'Nazi' and 'wife-beating' bands of course have many differences, however the analogy works on one level at the least (the one it was meant to show) in that they are both bands putting across a certain anti-mainstream, violence inciting idea. If something was the same on all levels, it would not be an analogy. I don't know why you assume I am claiming all these things, when none of them were mentioned, and the analogy was stated on that one level. And with all due respect, 'guilt by association' is fair enough when the analogy pointed to a similarity of such. The video I saw of them was a live one at a gig, I don't think this is what you're talking about? As for the film reference - games and films were discussed earlier in the thread, and yes of course there are many films involving domestic violence that paint it in a negative and emotionally damaging event, which can only be a good thing. As for your last paragraph - I don't really get the point of it, as it is like you haven't actually read my previous replies. I have stated, many, many times, that it is not my concern what the bands intentions were, or whether they are nice guys or complete assholes. My point, as it has been all along, is that the lack of irony in the image/music/everything to do with this band (which is suggested by the very reason for forming the band, as well as many people's view of them) is as damaging culturally, and individually as a nazi band would be on fascist views. If Nazi bands are agreed as being damaging that is? Talking to the band and realising they were just joking wouldn't have affected this view. If you see something having a bad effect, but you understand it's intentions as innocent, is it then having no effect?! No offense, but I think we seem to be having two seperate arguments. I'm debating a moral issue of the effects of this sort of band on the ethical issue they appear to be taking side swipes at, whereas you seem to be defending your friends - to which I have no intention of personally attacking, and am well aware might be perfectly nice guys.

No, but as someone else stated before, gig going isn't the only way that the band might have influence in culture - and the main points weren't what affect their gigs would have had maninly as people pointed out very few people were there. Though, I know a couple of folk who did see them at another gig, and they didn't see it as 'ironic' as everyone states, but I didn't go, so I wouldn't comment any further than saying it can't have been as obvious as everyone says. It's still fine to debate what influence a band like this might have, and debate it, is it not? It's not like it really matters about that particular band as they aren't together anymore - but theres still an issue that it brings up, and that is what's being discussed.

No offence - but the fact you're bored of this would imply you wouldn't comment the same things already discussed on other pages. Ie, the fact that irony was obvious - which it wasn't to most except those who would presumably see irony in anything... And the idea of any influence they would have being direct at gigs and what not, when it was discussed on other pages that the damage would mostly have been of a cultural type - and the inherent dangers there of. And your point about Nazi bands is highly debatable, and not the fact you propose - theres plenty who just make statement through their music (especially on local scenes when they think all they can get away with is doing it through their music), and when you see a band doing this, and spot no irony, then why on earth wouldn't you assume they aren't serious - unless you're outlook on life is so optimistic that you just assume irony in everything unless completely proved otherwise?! Of course I agree that drugs/alcohol/etc are bigger influences on domestic violence - but for different reasons there isn't a whole lot of point discussing there bad effects here! And I wasn't saying their music there was shit, but i bought up that points because time after time earlier I had it rammed down my throat that they were and that they had no fans - and making that point were I did was for a reason, not to state my opinion on their music! I'm not sure what your video point is getting at - presumably that I lied by saying I'd watched a video?! I can assure you I did, though I have no way to prove it so you don't have to believe me jesus As for your last few points - firstly, my intention isn't to take the piss out of the band or condem them for being sexist. I have stated many times, I don't know them and they might well be nice enough guys (all be it I don't share the same sense of humour as them lol). I am simply making the point that bands like this aren't a good idea - and I think sometimes things go past a joke and have worrying affects on our culture. I think someone said before, it's one thing to make jokes like this to your mates, but the way going about making a band about these jokes where it isn't obviously irony to most, is a bad idea. And as much as I see freedom of speech as important, it's more important for people to think about what they are saying/how they are expressing themself. If we can all see how Nazi bands are dangerous (especially when you realise members of the BNP are known to be fans of certain bands) then we can see how music can be dangerous. And no, I'm not saying wifebeater were a Nazi band, or that the guys had right wing views - just that the humour in their music could have ended being completely irresponsible as to their cause. And no-one has the right to shun that responsibility just as it was intended irony. Not everyone can talk to the band and know them personally so as to discover their 'irony' - doesn't stop the subtle effects they might have.

Wow, you're so clever - try actually reading the posts before judging please. I reply in kind, if there is a sensible response, I reply with a sensible answer - if people respond like 12 year kids trying to grab attention then I dismiss them - hence the dismissal in this post

Unless someone says 'M' on their first turn

Sigh...they are still useful analogies for moral issues here, as there aren't any clear cut bands that are pro just 'wifebeating', and given that everyone here (well assumedly, so far) isn't pro either of those things, then the analogy is pretty good. Assumedly a band that did promote domestic abuse wouldn't be far different from other bands that promote such anti-mainstream morality - so again theres a good link which works as a good analogy if it is that part of the issue which is relevant.

I'm not, I'm just saying that debating is useful unless everyone gives up immediately, deciding that everyone disagrees. I have never said I wanted everyone to come to my opinion, just debate the issue - and if that is done, without overly inputing tastes and unprovable things into the pot, then there should be a pretty clear answer like there is in most issues. And I think a couple of times today this has become quite close with a couple of folk I've spoken to on here - not through anyone changing per se, but just straightening issues out. Well they are comparable to a nazi band if you don't spot the intended irony! Even more so if we consider the example of a nazi band, who claims irony after they split up. It seems to be a pretty good analogy, what's the problem? I realise they aren't a nazi band, and didn't intend to be a domestic abuse supporting band either - the analogy is still useful though. Two paragraphs, lots of talk of debate, but no use of the word opinion...oh

I can understand where you are coming from to a degree, I think you're right that parodic art that isn't understood by the massess isn't necesarily a bad thing. I do think however that the danger appears when it is a potentially very damaging subject matter or done in the wrong way. For instance, you can't imagine paedophiles being influenced negatively by brasseye, despite the fact the public in large numbers found it offensive. They didn't neccesarily 'get' the irony, but they realised it was ironic and not a promotion of paedophilia. They just thought it was offensive. It's different here though, it's not just that sort of offensiveness - it is the lack of realisation of any sort of parody by most - and the possibility that this is culturally damaging on different levels. I see your point about media crusades though, and also share your sentiments that people being offended on mass doesn't necesarily mean an art form shouldn't exist (in the case of things like brasseye).

And I did listen, and watched at least one video ( I don't have it logged down in my book of bad bands activity unfortunately), there isn't really anything different from what you would expect an actual sexist, violence promoting band to sound like - from my experience of what Nazi bands and the such sound like, though I have never had attention drawn to an outrightly only 'wifebeating' band before. Thats crosses the line as far as I I'm concerned. Theres some use in debating where the line is exactly, and how far it should go - but when a band does that bad a job of irony - to the extent where most of us (assumedly most) see nothing but another nazi-esque band. Well in my opinion, if a band do think about what they are actually doing occasionally - and realise they are rubbing people the opposite way to what they intend to, the right thing to do is remedy situation isn't it. And perhaps if this sort of issue had a say in the band splitting, then they have done the right thing.

Excuse me, but this thread is about 20 days old, the band had been around for ages - please take this fact on board. And also, if society is full of idiots like me who can't discern the obvious irony in things like you oh so intelligent folks can, then your argument is essentailly society is stupid and so it doesn't matter what happens to it. Which is fair enough if thats your view, just thought I'd point it out. However if it is, it's pointless to pretend you're debating the view that wifebeater wouldn't have a negative influence - as clearly you realise they would and wouldn't care. And no I'm not screaming they encourage domestic abuse, I've discussed how they are likely to have a negative effect on at least some folk - and this point is made countless times - especially well, I think, in the bit where we were talking about cultural effects and society prejudices towards sex.

I apologise if I come across as patronising, I don't mean to. Nazi bands are something no-one has said they explicitly support the idea of, so they are a good place to start analogously speaking. And finally, I respond like that to your posts which are filled with things other than your arguments, those basic ones about irony and the such progressed, but your point stayed the same as if you weren't hearing any opposition points. I'm not in the slightest bit upset, it's a bit odd to see so many people jumping on the freedom of speech bandwagon (though obviously if people agree with what I am saying they are not likely to reply, such is the way with forums - you mainly hear opposition). It doesn't upset me, your posts just seem overly aggressive and don't appear to want to progress the discussion - just tell everyone the same opinions that have already been progressed past. And as I have said before, if you don't want to progress them , you don't have to, seems a bit strange to keep posting the same thing though when you constantly say you don't want to debate - you want everyone to have their own opinions and keep them set in stone.

As discussed earlier, the point about irony only works if the irony is clear to everyone, not just those alternative teens/friends/fans/whoever who are looking for it. And also it was discussed how they could influence people earlier/the idea of how culture works, I won't go over the entire argument again for fear of being guilty of the terrible crime of going around in circles - but perhaps if folk read back over these bits, we wouldn't have to go back in circles!!

Sorry, I can't spell so my argument is mute - i forgot that great rule of discussion. Pleanty of reasoning in there mate if you wanna take a look back to the begining - if you disagree with me why not counter the arguments rather than making clever sounding swipes at me? Two can play the 'analyse what the comments are doing in a bid to devalue the overall argument' game...

Nonsense lol! Yep, you're right, the point of debate is to disagree, and just to shout opinions at one another. No offence mate, but out of everyone one here, I wouldn't expect you to take anything on board other than your own opinion. I don't know you at all, but you've come across to me as someone who isn't interested in being reasonable. I'm not trying to force views on anyone, just debate the issue, which clearly isn't what you want to hear, but it is the truth. I've reiterated my views in different ways, and along with a few others have looked at it from different angles, and come to some shared agreements - none of which entailed one of us ditching our views in favour of the others. I have responded to your points made above (about the obvious irony, the not directly promoting violence etc), many a time, and don't see the point in doing it again. If you wanna act like a prick, and twist everything in the hope of making me look like a twat, fair enough.

I honestly don't get you at all - I said the above posts, about agreement in debate being important, and you twist it into that. Seriously, whats the point in doing that just to bad mouth someone? If you have no interest in the issue, don't post, it's as simple as that - no one is making you stay.

Are you just trying to wind me up or something? I shall not be wound! No but if you're not seeing my point, and I'm not seeing yours then something is wrong. In my opinion, the world is a certain way, and so long as we both agree with shared base moralities ( as stated a few posts earlier - things such as art shouldn't always come above suffering, humans shouldn't needlessly suffer etc) then there is no need to assume there is no correct moral analysis. I know it differs from situation to situation, but the point holds. I'm not a big thing fan of relativism in morality anymore, unless there are zero shared bases, which I would hope is not the case here - else the debate would have turned in pretty seperate directions to what it did. There's nothing wrong in debating until some sort of shared stance is met, even if it is not the full one that started the discussion, indeed in moral issues it seems odd to debate just to shout opinions at each other and then stop before reaching this.