xRobb

I think you'll find that comment was very much intended to be taken with a pinch of salt and wasn't part of a well considered thesis on the value of drugs in music. I hope you're not suggesting for a minute that the reason they make great innovative music is that they smoke pot.

oh my, thanks for helping me out with that.

That was not the intention. No they are truly talented. I think it helps them though.

true. neo conservatives in the US are outraged at Spongebob' date=' saying he promotes homosexuality in children[/quote']

Indeed. I heard about that also, Because he holds hands with Patrick.

With a guy called Mario. He didnt remember me though

haha no way! if only my friend melany could see this.

but have you ever seen a mightier one?

http://www.aubl.net/photos/reading

In real life? no. On the internet, yes. You have probably seen that typical one thats always around. Looks like its done with wallpaper and its about as thick as a fist..yet still not as long as that one.

annnyyyway

hehe

of course

i submitted it

but so did nick (onlynik - or moderator fame)

and he got the free ticket

which still upsets me to this day

but what the hey

we got our mugs in the Reading program

which is pretty cool if i dont say so myself

- and to be honest i was quite impressed that they printed it...

thats tough luck kiddo. Yeah i saw it and was more impressed with them printing it rather than the doob....i think.

dude' date=' we have college in 10minutes. and i have an exam to fail. i'll race you? [/quote']

Im superfast yo, robbyrocketpants style.

it should be goddamn snowing.

whats the crack?

har har har

You were obviously aware of that photo in the reading '03 leaflet/day planner things? i fucking howled when i saw it.

From personal experience I never enjoyed the slow onset hit of eating it' date=' much preferred the immediacy of smoking. Yeah, I could almost sound hypocritical here but I've not once said people shouldn't smoke it I agree strongly with the individual right to choose thing going on here, but I do get uptight when I don't feel a balanced view is being portrayed. After all, if we're wanting people to have an informed opinion you need to drag out all the dirt so people can learn.[/quote']

No you are correct. The slow onset is is different and not nearly as practical. I have never been a regular smoker of joints. Buckets and pipes are generally my medium, the effects of all these methods vary. But my point was that if i could buy it as easily as that then i would smoke less. It was somewhat of a extreme statement..but i feel you will understand my mindset on that one.

(It's 'carcinogenic'' date=' btw). And yeah, there does appear to be a further increased risk in cannabis smoking than there is with smoking tobacco alone. I take your point about smoking not being an ideal vehicle for the drug, but vaporisers have not been stringently scientifically tested. There are some claims on the web that they have been proven to decrease toxins, but these have been done (if they were done at all) by bogus labs from non-accredited research institutes. The problem with vaoprizers is that they assume the evaporation of only the 'good' chemicals in pot, but as the studies above prove it's not necessarily the smoking related part of the drug that causes the toxic effects in humans. There simply isn't any valid scientific studies into their effectiveness at the moment.

(Although, sprays from Delta9-THC were clinically developed, and found to be pretty much crap, as far as I can remember. I'll maybe try and look some more info out).

I'll apologise unreservedly for being so blunt then, but at least we're now crystal-clear that the aim of this discussion is to bring out as many facts or misconceptions as we can.

Organically grown tobacco would still be carcinogenic, so I don't see why you'd expect organically grown grass to be any different? The problem is the specific components of cannabis that cause the negative effects have not been fully confirmed - For example, much as nicotine from tobacco has negative effects upon health it may be that the active ingredient in cannabis, delta9-thc, contributes to the undesirable effects of weed. It would certainly make sense that the psychoactive compound would be causing the associated mental health problems independently of how pure it was or the route of administration.

Cool, I just read your previous comment the wrong way. The right to your own body is not under contest, but I do personally feel that when such issues are aired publically it's important to present the good with the bad in an honest way. I may have jumped the gun slightly in my response, but at least it's presented another side to the discussion.

If I come across as an arrogant cock, just let me know ;D[/quote']

Im pleased theres some level headed(ness) going on here. Yes.

I have not been introduced to the notion of the toxins and negative elements of pot not being produced by smoking. Thats very goddamn interesting. I did not, nor do i ever mean to come across self rituous or pretencious but it always seems to be the way...the FACTS should be gathered and talked about. This is one of my main problems, i feel like eye gouging myself when people just give general quips about the drug. My ever increasing interest in this situation is for the drug but also the negative press as it were that it contains. Like anything else i think people should just be aware of what they can. Interest or no interest its better to understand the truth about it. Despite how ever developing this subject is.

i appreciate where you are coming from, interesting reading.

Look youve said your piece and thats fine. I just simply dont think its a good or workable idea. You should have more concern for yourself

fine.

what you talking about though. I think you should think about it more though, the ins and outs of it. I sure will.

Yeah. So that's why I'm so fucked up!

No but really. I understand what youre saying but its not entirely true. Dont generalise a nation man, yes they are more tollerant but its not as if it was always this way. Introducing the drug wont cause revolts and revolutions. We should be trying to mirror them more, not thinking we are fine the way we are.

The Swiss and Dutch have a fundamentally different mentality to us' date=' you should understand that. There is not the excess culture that we have here that would go into overdrive if cannavis was legalised.[/quote']

thats a little paranoid i think. You been smoking the dope laddy?

VENKMAN!

of course he is brilliant! even in kingpin, he just isnt suited to being a twat.

drugs are bad for you.

as is smoking.

as is drinking.

as is caffeine.

people don't care' date=' they "indulge" themselves anyway.

why the debate?eh?eh?[/quote']

come to class this afternoon and revise you ho.

It would be much worse. You havent thought through the practacalities. What age group would you legalise it for? would there be cafes where people could go and have a whale of a time? Would there be licensing laws like alcohol? Its not practical and its not gonna happen. I dont want a country where 24/7 id be forced to encounter stoner idiots everywhere i go. Children would go take pot instead of going to school etc. A trivial point perhaps but a real one - and before you say "oh there are underage drinkers too". Im talking about not FURTHERING social problems.

What about Amsterdam? switzerland? where it is very accepted and lets not forget the very open and liberal vancouver.

Its just a case of finding the right restrictions on it. Kids could drink instead of going to school couldnt they? but most dont. Its simply having some trust and "faith" in people. I really dont see how it could FURTHER our problems. Stoners arent idiots, idiots are idiots and they smoke marijuana. Keeping things illegal and restricted is not benefitting anyone. Its hypocritical to say that taking choice away from people is reducing social ills.

Of course smoke from a pure grass joint contains poisons and tar. I would really like to know where people pick up this bizarre misconception that somehow tobacco smoke is evil but smoke from any other burning plant-matter is completely harmless.

You said earlier on that you think smoking weed has somehow improved you' date=' but I'd like to know what state you were in before this "improvement" because you don't seem to be able to hold a train of thought and construct a coherent argument in your posts.[/quote']

No, i do not fail to see that. I fail to see how it can be compared with a pack of lambert and butlers..of course poisons are being produced. The butane from your lighter causes damage to your health!. I just think that the smoking aspect of it is being rivalled with that of cigarettes.

In what way am i lacking coherence by the way? If you are in some way suggesting i cant argue from a logical base..i resent that also.

I am open to any information or arguements that arent just saying "weed fries you min"

There's a fantastic review in Progress In Neuro-Pharmacology & Biochemical Psychiatry by Kalant (2004) that describes in detail the conclusions of the abundance of studies into both schizophrenia and other mental issues (including the increased incidence of depression amongst pot smokers). The problem with the type of studies used is that they' date=' by their very nature, cannot prove without doubt that there is a direct cause and effect relationship between cannabis smoking and mental disorders. They do, however, indicate strongly and without doubt that there is a significant relationship between pot smoking and an increase in psychiatric problems.[/quote']

I would entirely like to read or find out about such studies underway. I would like to know the atmosphere in which these are based on. I personally CAN see how people using the drug can and very well could fall into depression and/or worse mental health problems. But i feel such things are very dependant on the individual and the circumstances that its taken. Like i said, i dont believe it doesnt have its negatives but again they fall to the "self". I just think that the choice and information should be there and readily available for people that may wish to use the drug, in whatever form or manner. Alcohol consmption is surely as much of a factor in these problems as marijuana could be. I know they are not comparable as such but if formented vegtables can be sold legally then so should organic pot be, leaving the choice up to the individual and letting them decide if they can deal with the effects it.

While I'm on a roll... Cannabis smoking increases symptoms of wheezing' date=' coughing, phlegm and shortness of breath even when you [b']correct for tabacco smoking - Basically, smoking pot screws you more than smoking tabacco (Fligiel et al, 1997. Published in the Chest journal, it's just one example of a dozen or so papers showing the same conclusion). There's also evidence showing a causal role for cannabis smoking and cancers of the head and neck. Cannabis smokers appear to have a 3 fold increase in risk compared to non-smokers. The risk for tabacco smokers rose from a 10-fold risk to a 36-fold risk if they smoked cannabis regularily too (Sidney et al, 1997. Published in Cancer Causes Control). As for cannabis ingestion, it's not a common way of taking the drug so there is less available evidence to examine - Which isn't to say it's safe, just that there's not enough data to draw any conclusions from.

The text in bold, i was unsure of what you meant.

I am going to find the Fligiel paper. When you say it increases symptoms of wheezing and coughing etc what are the conditions again? i think marijuana is a tough drug to research due to the many ways of consuming it, using it, producing it etc.. each with there own + and -'s. Ingesting it is simply uncommon due to the way in which its sold, produced or the illegal aspect of it. I would quite happy not smoke ever again if i could wake up and eat a marijuana laced tracker bar. Doesnt mixing cannabis with tobacco cause extremely worse carciogenic(sp?) effects, i believe it increases the dangers dramatically doesnt it?. I just want to know the method in which the cannabis is being consumed for these various research. What about vaporizing it?

I resent the ignorant comment by the way and in no way shape or form think i know everything about it, nor does anyone for that matter. But i take a keen interest in finding out the relevant facts, good or bad. I am open to the pros and cons of it. I have only berated people taking a very stubborn and narrowminded approach to it all.

Maybe i am ignorant, but i do NOT see how smoking pure grass could ever rival the health risks of smoking a cigarette. And thats just general "grass", what about it it were organically grown? it is a plant and there are ways of harnessing the qualities in it without serious health problems.

p.s i do not wish to undermine our democracy( i dont need to) and i have no political agenda other than having the right to my own body and wishes.

I am most interested in what you are saying, indeed.

If people decide to do things' date=' then their gonna do them no matter what. In that respect it would be better if cannabis was legal and safely available rather than its current status of illegal and grossly overpriced. Legalising cannabis would also get filthy resin off the street, as there would be no need for it anymore. It worked for the dutch, are we so much more clever than them?[/quote']

the dutch use LOTS of resin. And its not like grass is better? its all dependant on the type. They both have their good and bad sides. The dutch are now producing large amounts of bubblehash (the water/ice extraction method of the resin glands) that makes almost "see through" resin with almost no impurites as its pure thc resin glands. And this can be done with anysort of grass or mash. How cool.

However it seems clear that you are just another fucking hippy who takes it for recreational usage.

Elements of truth indeed but whats your point?

I guess if i just drank that would be ok. Then you wouldnt say "youre just another drinker, drinking for recreational purpose" because that would make sense. Like i hinted earlier.. You are blindly ignorant about the drug and the politics that go along with it and further more the principles which reside with this arguement.

Exactly how could Britain get much worse? do you think we are new and developing?. After a good hefty mortgage of the world and people being born then moving away, what exactly makes anything about our societly *that* good? It seems you should stop with your trisha worth sociology.

Exactly. People who read this thread should think about the opening post before they open their mouths (or press their keys)

Good advice momo.

Demon cleaner, you do not know what you are talking about. You missed the point of my post and the mention of jazz. To quote the mars volta "everyone should be on lsd" they are also pot users. I didnt say every musician smokes or takes marijuana BUT its a fair point to say classical music and contemporary (as it were) would ever be as good without it. You obviously dont know anything about the true effect or much about it at all. This is clear, especially from a musicians perspective on the benefits of pot.

Cannabis' link to mental problems are no more than if they are alredy present in the individual anyway. Do you think depressed people should drink? i dont as it has a negative effect on them. Like i said, WE should be able to control and decide what we do with our own bodies. I dont think everyone should smoke but for the people who do use they should have a easy life with it, like other LEGAL (if it was their case today.. they would not be) substance users.

MARIJUANA could get a decent decrim or even legalization (sometime) if people would find out the facts and get off their asses. Our half assed, broken to shit country and "democracy" would work to a certain exstent..but really sitting ranting about it on here wont get anything done.

EDIT:Marijuana, in its purest form is a plant that resides on earth not man made.

Alcohol: man formulated and its its best form a good poison. Formented. But you should all be able to deduce this if you just THINK.

Can you die from over using pot? no. Has it had recorded death? NO.

Does alcohol kill millions world wide every year? yes.

It is not ignorant to say a pure grass joint (dependant on strain) is not as bad as a cigarette is obvious. Does it contain poisons and tar etc etc etc..no.

With that cast how could it not be amusing.

Its cut and told fucking shit though, to give a EMPIRE worth review.

No thats just stupid. Id said when they are high they are idiots. Although' date=' they must have been idiots to take the stuff in the first place. But i will concede westhill does have its fair share of twats, as does where you live[/quote']

miles davis? all jazz musicians? all musicians really. So go write off pretty much all bands you listen too because they all get high. Its people like you that made the dark ages. You obviously know shit fuck all about the PLANT, so until you come up with something better than your day time tv psychology...go away.

That narrowminded, blindly stubborn people get to me.

ITS NOT ILLEGAL DUE TO HEALTH IMPLICATIONS. As i already stated, this is true. Medically marijuana is sound. Smoking it causes implications, although to a extremely less degree than that of tobacco.

Making marijuana illegal is where the social ills are coming from, all drugs. Because they are illegal they are a comodity. Some decent decrim would be sufficent. But blindly disregarding its numerous possitive effects is ridiculous.

Like Bill Hicks said.."isnt wiping out a plant that was here before us a little...paranoid"

indeed.

I'd really like to meet the man (or lady) that smokes 350 doobies a week. How the fuck could someone afford that!? It's not like they could work to funded their habit...

And up to 70 spliffs a week is only 'moderate use'? Brilliant! I thought I was starting to have a problem....

And what type of marijuana was it? resin? grass? if so what kind of resin or plant was used? was this constant throughout the participants? was tobacco mixed with these "joints" was that kept constant? was it only smoking the plant or plant bi products? i mean seriously these are all factors which result in the outcome. Because if its eaten/vaporised or cooked the niggly health side of it is wiped entirely.

Its obvious that certain strains produce different levels of "problems" related to health. I personally dont see it and put it down to fear induction 101.

Just fuck off whining about the detrimental effects and harnass the fucking plant to its full potential. This study is bullshit, not new news and certainly bias. I fail to see the importance of this, there is a higher goddamn issue at stake here people and its not our health for once. I would rather justice as it were, liberty.

Everyone knows that Coke is the way ahead.

.... and don't pay more than 40 a gram kids!

(Not bad for a average of 20 lines. Works out at 2 a hit. Cheaper than pills.)

haha.

did you watch that program aswell? fucking morons they didnt know where they were coming from with that figures.

I have been smoking for four years now and i have nothing but improved mentally, in all sincerity. I may have became somewhat more cynical and i may perpetuate a little more..wow..i think those are good things. The people that cannot grasp the fine qualities about the drug and its effects should not be smoking it in the first place. Just as people do with alcohol and cigarettes. We should have the right to control our own atonomy by now surely anyways.

The Henry Ford deal was more to do with his car lines and move/demand for fuel. Later on they discovered they could grow fuel and create relatively clean fuel through the plant..alas how could this be changed whilst the car boom was ringing in top dollar. It wasnt and thus made illegal due to fear, as with everything else. Short version :-)