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Should we eat Meat?


Birdman

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I have dated a few vegetarian women in my time and they were all lovely and slim. That has nothing to do with the debate' date=' but I just thought I'd tell you anyway.[/quote']

And I am married to one. She doesn't parp on about me eating meat, prbably makes her a bad vegiterian, eh.

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Guest allsystemsfail
It's not like you to talk nonsense or hurl insults which means the truth hurts. Do you listen?Obviously not as you've sought to twist everything I've said to suit your own stance. No change there then.

Joy is not an animal emotion. Prove to me it is. The thalidamide arguement is a half truth. The botox arguement is a downright lie.

i fear you must be zombie pricks alter ego.

and the vegan site is blatant propaganda.

I'm sorry, but in what way have I been insulting? I simply challenged your extreme arrogance, demonstrated not just here but since you joined this board. And if you remember, I had challenged you on this very matter before regarding a discussion with ZM and others. I'd also become frustrated, that when presented with things I know from experience to be true, you would not listen. The truth hurts indeed. And talking nonsense? I don't believe so.

And no, I have not sought to twist everything you've said. Regarding your defence of the fur trade, you did say that you approved of fur farming did you not? And so, you do indeed support the killing of these poor creatures so as to satisfy the vanity of others.

And yes, joy is indeed an animal emotion. Direct experience with animals proves this to be true. Suggest you check out When Elephants Weep: The Emotional Lives Of Animals by Jeffrey Masson and Susan McCarthy.

The Botox arguement? I said nothing of this. Or Thalidomide for that matter. Now who is seeking to twist the arguement to suit their own agenda?

And no, the material produced by the Vegan Society is not propaganda, but fact. What's wrong? The truth hurt? Doesn't quite fit with your already preconceived notions?

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Guest allsystemsfail
i gotta say i find your attitude rather sanctimonious and self righteous. i wasn't looking for your approval and i don't consider myself defeatist in the slightest' date=' don't try and judge me from one paragraph in a message board on the internet. i think wildlife documentaries on the tv play a MASSIVE part in conservation efforts these days(whereas they were detrimental in their infancy), particularly a series like life of mammals. but i know i could perhaps do more and one day i will but i have other priorities just now and i'd imagine you didn't spawn as an activist but you grew to become one so why don't you grant the rest of us mere mortals that privelage as well and lay off the preaching and perhaps concentrate on education. for the most part i have been agreeing with you but i've been trying to post some valid points to further the discussion not get embroiled in your politics.

sorry if this post sounds harsh, i'm just annoyed that this thread has descended to this. it's always the ones that i'm quite enjoying that seem to turn to shit or maybe they're the only ones i notice. who knows.[/quote']

Sanctimonoius and self righteous? Why, coz I've sought to challenge your arguements? Look, I say what I think. If that offends, then I'm sorry. And no, I do not believe myself superior. I claim no higher moral ground.

And watching wildlife documentaries, which was what you indeed spoke of regarding your interest in issues of this kind, does not (as I said) affect change. You said nothing of the documentaries themselves - their part in education.

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Guest allsystemsfail

And with that, I'm gonna leave this discussion. I've wasted too much time on it already. Several hours. And really, I could be doing something more constructive. And I've also been posting elsewhere - on another message board.

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And with that' date=' I'm gonna leave this discussion. I've wasted too much time on it already. Several hours. And really, I could be doing something more constructive. And I've also been posting elsewhere - on another message board.[/quote']

onwards and upwards!

good for you, sorry for wasting your time, us mere mortals and carnivores are such a pity, eh.

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Guest allsystemsfail
onwards and upwards!

good for you' date=' sorry for wasting your time, us mere mortals and carnivores are such a pity, eh.[/quote']

What? I'm sorry, but where did I state that folks here had wasted my time? I said only that I'd wasted a lotta time on this discussion when I really should have been doing other things. I do have other things to attend to.

And regarding my parping on about folks eating meat, who was it that introduced this thread - putting the question as to whether we should eat meat? Birdman. Do you also suggest that if I see something said here that I disagree with, that I should say nothing? This IS a discussion forum is it not? *shakes head* I also said, if you'd actually read my posts, that I have no problem with those who eat meat. I said also that I claim no superiority. So I shall ask you not to put words in my mouth.

And jesus, I thought we were through with this discussion - you and me. So what's with these posts against me?

And that was definitely my last word on this matter.

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Sanctimonoius and self righteous? Why' date=' coz I've sought to challenge your arguements? Look, I say what I think. If that offends, then I'm sorry. And no, I do not believe myself superior. I claim no higher moral ground.

And watching wildlife documentaries, which was what you indeed spoke of regarding your interest in issues of this kind, does not (as I said) affect change. You said nothing of the documentaries themselves - their part in education.[/quote']

yes sanctimonious and self righteous because you DIDN'T challenge my arguments rather you decided to challenge me. there is a difference. i'm not offended, i just expected better. and i was in agreement with you on most of the points in this discussion but i didn't present the stuff about wildlife documentaries and all that for argument, it was a statement. i was just laying out things i enjoy doing, i never said i would change the world and like i said i have nothing to apologise for and i'm not striving for anything. maybe it's because of that i don't feel like i have to go the extra bit and go vegetarian or vegan just now but it was a personal statement and i obviously didn't expect you to attack my points through that, i expected you to attack my points by, um, using my points. nethertheless, enough has been said on all this and i think if anyones opinion will be changed it would have been changed by now and we're just going in circles so you're right to exit the discussion.

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if you'd actually read my posts, that I have no problem with those who eat meat

err...I did read all your posts, and all I got was "you shouldn't eat meat, come to the light, free yourself from your christian ways, free the enslaved animals, live in harmony with nature, by not eating meat" *

* some interpretation has been used when discribing your words (and that's a joke, I hope you get it).

...waiting for the last word part 3...

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interesting discussion!

Why is it that we believe that humans are worth more than animals? I suggest that because humans care about whether they live or die, they have interests such as gaining pleasure and avoiding suffering: as such humans have intrinsic worth, they should not be slaves or exploited - we have rights because we have interests and desires that should not be taken away from us.

Since animals have all these things, such as the preference to live, interests and desires and the ability to experience pleasure and pain - just like human beings - then we should not treat them like animals, but as equals. All animals have mental states similar to our own, they feel pleasure, fear, depression, anxiety, etc. Chickens even know what a family is, and even insects like bees have complex societies. all this has been proven by scientific studies. But since they cant speak a human language, they cant communicate their suffering through any means we can understand easily.

Im a vegan of nearly 2 years, and i agree with allsystemsfail, we should not descriminate on the grounds of species.

Just as we have no right to descriminate on grounds of race, we should not treat animals as property and commodities. All the same arguments that meateaters and animal testers use to defend themselves, were used by advocates of slavery (except 'cos i like the taste of it' although some of those kkk guys....?!). such as "its natural", "they are lower than us", "survival of the fittest". we realise that was racist now, and i wager we are realising that our society is speciesist.

the discussion in the future will not be about, do animals have consciousness, do they feel pain. it will be - are they means to our ends, or ends in themselves. are they valueble only in how they benifit humans, or do they have intrinsic worth in themselves.

A chicken would know its family, were it not for vacuum packed meat.

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interesting discussion!

Why is it that we believe that humans are worth more than animals? I suggest that because humans care about whether they live or die' date=' they have interests such as gaining pleasure and avoiding suffering: as such humans have intrinsic worth, they should not be slaves or exploited - we have rights because we have interests and desires that should not be taken away from us.

Since animals have all these things, such as the preference to live, interests and desires and the ability to experience pleasure and pain - just like human beings - then we should not treat them like animals, but as equals. All animals have mental states similar to our own, they feel pleasure, fear, depression, anxiety, etc. Chickens even know what a family is, and even insects like bees have complex societies. all this has been proven by scientific studies. But since they cant speak a human language, they cant communicate their suffering through any means we can understand easily.

Im a vegan of nearly 2 years, and i agree with allsystemsfail, we should not descriminate on the grounds of species.

Just as we have no right to descriminate on grounds of race, we should not treat animals as property and commodities. All the same arguments that meateaters and animal testers use to defend themselves, were used by advocates of slavery (except 'cos i like the taste of it' although some of those kkk guys....?!). such as "its natural", "they are lower than us", "survival of the fittest". we realise that was racist now, and i wager we are realising that our society is speciesist.

the discussion in the future will not be about, do animals have consciousness, do they feel pain. it will be - are they means to our ends, or ends in themselves. are they valueble only in how they benifit humans, or do they have intrinsic worth in themselves.

A chicken would know its family, were it not for vacuum packed meat.[/quote']

I really hope you are taking the piss.....this whole PC shit is hard enough to deal with without me worrying that I dont offend a chicken or a fucking bee....get a grip on reallity.

Equal rights for animals would require that we share our environment with creatures who would have no worries about harming us, and I for one dont fancy life inprisonment for squashing a wasp or a bluebottle.

What next....the vote for animals? I have never read such bollocks in all my life.

Would we then force these supid sensibilities on animals.....vegetarian lions?

Whales banned from eating those poor plancton.....well they have feelings too.

The difference between us and animals? we have evolved beyond pure instinct, everything an animal does (in the wild) is geared round three things, food, survival and procreation...an animal meets a human being and it thinks three things...1/can it hurt me? 2/can I eat it? 3/should I shag it? it has no desire for small talk.

G...

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the discussion in the future will not be about' date=' do animals have consciousness, do they feel pain. it will be - are they means to our ends, or ends in themselves. are they valueble only in how they benifit humans, or do they have intrinsic worth in themselves. [/quote']

Like I asked System, "is any death 'cruelty'" (he seemed to think "yes") I am an ominvore and abhore cruelty to animals, but you probably think I am talking oxymorons.

I'll put it this way, having an animal killed quickly (1 - 2seconds) in my book "isn't cruel". Having an animal in a tiny pen for years, being transprted in cramped conditions and being killed/maimed with a blunt knife IS curel.

I do my best to select meat that I feel is organic / freerange. (and that's up to the advertising / place of purchase to tell me "honestly").

Still no word back about humans eating meat as being "natural" (tell those aboriginies to stop hunting, eh?)

I love animals as much as the next person, but I also understand "how the world works" I don't feel my views ar bias or extreme, where as some of the vegan points of view are ("that's because you perceive them as extreme phil..." yeah man, wah, pass the shroooms...)

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I really hope you are taking the piss.....this whole PC shit is hard enough to deal with without me worrying that I dont offend a chicken or a fucking bee....get a grip on reallity.

Equal rights for animals would require that we share our environment with creatures who would have no worries about harming us' date=' and I for one dont fancy life inprisonment for squashing a wasp or a bluebottle.

What next....the vote for animals? I have never read such bollocks in all my life.

Would we then force these supid sensibilities on animals.....vegetarian lions?

Whales banned from eating those poor plancton.....well they have feelings too.

The difference between us and animals? we have evolved beyond pure instinct, everything an animal does (in the wild) is geared round three things, food, survival and procreation...an animal meets a human being and it thinks three things...1/can it hurt me? 2/can I eat it? 3/should I shag it? it has no desire for small talk.

G...[/quote']

Haha so true next thing you know you'll have to give up your seat on the bus for an elderly cow on its way to the bingo to see its friends.

This is ridiculous (sp) how the hell can animals be treated the same as humans, fair enough cruelty to them is wrong but to say a cow or chicken has the same brain capacity as a human is fucking bollocks. Do those who are saying this genuinly believe that a cow should have the same rights as a human in that they can vote, are entitled to freedom of speech, ect. Come on can you really see any farm animals having the slightest clue about the labour party or their views? Can you see any animal full stop having any thoughts like this??

Anyway as ive said all you hippies dont go out and give the lions into shit for hunting down and killing prey for themselves to eat. Why not?? Should they not also be on some shitty toffu diet cause they are no better than anyother mamal remember. Personely id love to see a group of you try if for nothing else it would prove your point in a way as the lion mauls everyone of your stupid asses you would prove the maybe humans arnt always the dominant species.

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interesting discussion!

Why is it that we believe that humans are worth more than animals? I suggest that because humans care about whether they live or die' date=' they have interests such as gaining pleasure and avoiding suffering: as such humans have intrinsic worth, they should not be slaves or exploited - we have rights because we have interests and desires that should not be taken away from us.

Since animals have all these things, such as the preference to live, interests and desires and the ability to experience pleasure and pain - just like human beings - then we should not treat them like animals, but as equals. All animals have mental states similar to our own, they feel pleasure, fear, depression, anxiety, etc. Chickens even know what a family is, and even insects like bees have complex societies. all this has been proven by scientific studies. But since they cant speak a human language, they cant communicate their suffering through any means we can understand easily.

Im a vegan of nearly 2 years, and i agree with allsystemsfail, we should not descriminate on the grounds of species.

Just as we have no right to descriminate on grounds of race, we should not treat animals as property and commodities. All the same arguments that meateaters and animal testers use to defend themselves, were used by advocates of slavery (except 'cos i like the taste of it' although some of those kkk guys....?!). such as "its natural", "they are lower than us", "survival of the fittest". we realise that was racist now, and i wager we are realising that our society is speciesist.

the discussion in the future will not be about, do animals have consciousness, do they feel pain. it will be - are they means to our ends, or ends in themselves. are they valueble only in how they benifit humans, or do they have intrinsic worth in themselves.

A chicken would know its family, were it not for vacuum packed meat.[/quote']

To do this we would have to treat animals as moral agents responsible for their own actions. This simply means for example, that we would have to treat domestic cats as serial killers and lock them up in Broadmoor at Her Majesty's Pleasure, or in the US, lock them up in death row for ten years pending appeals and then fry them in old sparky.

And imagine the spectacle of leo the lion in court defending himself against a charge of killing a wildebeest and disposing of the body by eating it. His co-accused would be hyenas and vultures who helped him dispose of the corpse.

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Let me give you guys an example of how we arbritrarily give humans more moral worth and value than animals.

It has been proven that pigs can perform simple tasks, they have a sense of family, they have interests and desires. Now let us compare the pig, which is considered food and a fit candidate for scientific/medical experiments, to a mentally disabled human individual. This individual has very little awareness of his or her surroundings, does not recognise family and has very little in the way of desires or interests.

I would never dream of suggesting we eat the disabled person or conduct medical experiments on him/her. But which out of the pig and the disabled person would you give more moral rights?

I propose that a pig should be considered equal to a human being that has the same level of interests, desires, awareness. In this way animals should be equal to human beings. Not in the absurd sense that has been proposed by a couple of people on this thread.

We do the same amongst humans, The young are treated differently in our society, people with a mental illnesses or other disabilities are also treated differently. But we do not make these decisions arbitrarily as we do when considereing animals - we come to an objective understanding of the levels of awareness and responsibility that each individual has when helping or restraining a person. And so it should be with a non-human animal. In this way animals are equal to human beings in the same way that humans are equal to humans.

In answer to the moral agency proposal; While there is evidence of animals having interests and desires there is no evidence of moral agency, if indeed any animal, human or non-human does have moral agency at all, a question that is not decided to say the least.

And to the criticism that i am giving non-human-animals the same brain capacity as human-animals, that is ridiculous. What i have been saying all along is that we should treat animals in a way which is not arbitrary, but afford them rights according to their moral worth, which is in many ways very similar to our own, but not identical. And as i have shown with the examples of the young and the disabled - we do not treat everyone "the same" either.

"is any death cruel"? I believe that every animal, human and non-human would, if we could get an answer from them all, say that they would rather be alive. (The exception here are the suicidal person who I hope everyone here would agree that they need help from us.) In this way we should not set out to kill them for no good reason other than "they taste good".

Can animals vote? They do not have the capability to put a cross on a ballot paper and vote like we do, but open the cage door and they will vote with their feet. So perhaps this kind of "voting rights" should be given to them.

So to conclude - Animals are not "the same", they are different, in the same way that many humans have many differences. Animals should be equal to humans in the same way that humans are equal to humans. I think you would all agree that it would be absurd to make all humans "exactly equal", so i dont think it is necessary to make all animals "exactly equal" to humans, or eachother for that matter, because humans and animals are not all "the same". :)

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It has been proven that pigs can perform simple tasks...

a vegan citing animal experiments as evidence for an argument?!...ooops' date=' slight mistake there, nes pas. (schrodingers cat would be so proud)

"is any death cruel"? I believe that every animal, human and non-human would, if we could get an answer from them all, say that they would rather be alive. (The exception here are the suicidal person who I hope everyone here would agree that they need help from us.) In this way we should not set out to kill them for no good reason other than "they taste good".

they don't just taste good, they provide me with nutrition and essential minerals etc. and, once again, you've avoided the point of my statement "is any death cruel", I didn't ask "should animals be killed for human consumption" (all a veggie can hear) I said "is any death cruel? 2 seconds tops to be killed, up to that point (if an animal is treated well), knows fuck all about the immenent death, so , you can hardly say "it's cruel". granted , there are plenty of shit abbitoires and slaughter houses, but I garentee there are plenty of good ones too (not that you care about it).

no one actually cares that humans eating animals is natural, it's part of what we are, how we live, how we got to where we are and because we are so advanced, we can now make choices about what we do, and how we live our lives, hence the exsistence of veggies, we are all in this world as one giant living evolving animal, death, "power" and rank are all part of that life cycle...blah blah blah.

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I dont mean to offend you or anything, i realise that forums are very impersonal, but i felt i should respond to your criticism.

firstly, i dont see a problem with citing research. I dont know how the pigs were treated in this experiment, i guess since it was psychological testing it wasnt too bad, but they may have become bacon. But the point is that all research conducted on animals, suggests that we have no right to experiment on them at all. So i have no problem citing research since the vast majority reinforces my opinion, but i still move for the abolition of cruel and inhumane animal tests etc. For the record i dont feel it would be a problem to test animals when they are being treated well, we do this with children for developmental psychology, where we put them through tests very similar to the pig ones i am referring to.

secondly, since the vitamins and minerals gained from eating animals, can also be gained from eating various vegetables etc, this is not a good argument for eating meat. The only argument i can see left is one of personal preference ie "it tastes good".

thirdly, i really did answer your "is any death cruel" point. What i said above was that every animal, human and non-human (bar the suicidal) would rather be alive than dead. So even if you can have a completely painless and suffering-free death, which personally i dont believe happens, you are still being cruel in the sense that you are taking their life away from them.

In the ideal situation, an animal would be treated exceptionally well, then killed in a painless and suffering free way; the animal would still die, which i have an issue with, but would not suffer in its entire life. This argument is a moot point, since this ideal situation does not exist anywhere - if you eat meat in our society you necessarily cause the suffering and the death of the animal concerned, it is unavoidable even with free range organic etc. certainly there are better or worse situations for animals, but unavoidably they suffer and die for our pleasure.

So all i suggest is that you consider all the options and all the evidence, and make a decision for yourself whether you want to eat meat. But dont have some false consciousness that there is any reason, in our society, for eating meat other than because you enjoy it. :)

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I cant understand all this nonsense....in the wild, animals suffer a good deal more than farmed ones, with the obvious exception of battery chickens.

A wild animals life is fraught with danger from predators, it spends its day forraging for food while avoiding becoming food itself, and if another creature doesnt get it then there is a better than good chance that cold, hunger or some horrible disease will, its in a farmers interest to maintain the health of his livestock so they can produce the milk wool and meat which genarates his income, so any disease or injury is either prevented by inoculation or treated by a vet, im sure mice and other small rodents suffer a bit while being torn limb from limb by an owl.

I resent any insinuation that my lack of belief in any sort of animal rights is in some way a form of racial hatred or support of slavery or apatheit...im not sure if I find the comparison with black people and animals more offensive than the actual finger pointing at me and all other meat eaters.

I just hope that none of you vegan preachers never attain a position of real power in the world and if you ever did....thank fuck im not an Eskimo.

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In answer to the moral agency proposal; While there is evidence of animals having interests and desires there is no evidence of moral agency' date=' if indeed any animal, human or non-human does have moral agency at all, a question that is not decided to say the least.

:)[/quote']

You obviously failed to understand the point of moral agency.

Let me put it more simply. Humans are regarded as being responsible for their own actions and are therefore punished when these actions conflict with various laws.

If you give animals the same rights as humans, then they too MUST BE regarded as moral agents and resonsible for their actions. It then follows that as animals will always behave as animals, ie. killing and eating each other, eating their own offspring, stealing food, fighting ect, then you have to punish them according to law.

So if animals cannot control their own actions, and as they operate entirely on instinct, they can't, then they cannot be granted human rights or any rights equivalent to human rights.

All the quoting of research and your love affair with pigs will not alter the facts that animals just do not give a fuck how much hand wringing protesting you do on their behalf.

And remember, vegetables are alive too. Do you know for a fact they are not aware?

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