Should we eat Meat?

[framheim]

oh feminists! yeah ok equal rights and all that but god they take it too far like "no i wont cook thats setting women back hundreds of years" yadda yadda yadda "i am my own woman i don't need a man for anything" blah blah blah yeah in other words your a lezzer. god just accept society " i am woman hear me roar" yeah fuck off!

what has any of that got to do with this thread? apart from making you look like an animal that is.

[friendlybikerdude]

Animal life' date=' as is all nature, is not the servant of man. Humans have no special place. To believe so is arrogance.[/quote']

I believe that's a misconstrued argument. This issue only exists because we as humans have consciences and a sense of right and wrong. Animals do not display this.

I see it as blatantly obvious that humans are special.

Which brings me onto another thing - abortion is accepted as bveing ok, but imagine the uproar if a pregnant rare endangered animal like a White Rhino was killed. I don't knowif there is a white rhino, or indeed if they are endangered, but you get the point.

It's stupid.

I love animals, but I have no qualms with eating them for my own gain......

[midgeski]

what has any of that got to do with this thread? apart from making you look like an animal that is.

allsystems asked for my opionon on feminsits, regarding a previous comment. so i gave it. i am female by the way

[framheim]

allsystems asked for my opionon on feminsits' date=' regarding a previous comment. so i gave it. i am female by the way[/quote']

yea i know why you said it, i don't know why you brought it up in the first place.

obviously i had assumed you were a guy, i still think your comments are extreme but my main problem was just that they don't really belong in this thread.

[Guest Charity Case]

Its only natural that we should eat meat.

Most mammals and reptiles do, its nature at its finest.

Everything is natural

[lepeep]

yeh ok but they will die a lot quicker and probably of some horrible disease and not of natural causes

Classic...my sides are still aching.

[Guest allsystemsfail]

yeah but do animals have feelings and emotions? any way to prove it. simply tehy look happy doesn't really count. in the suffering of others- the animals are only bred to be eaten- their sole purpose in life is to feed us! if we didnt eat meat then they probs wouldn't be bred so they wouldn't even exist. they should be thanking us! its not like food companies go out in the wild and shoot any fucking random cow they see. the cows are bred especially to be eaten.

oh feminists! yeah ok equal rights and all that but god they take it too far like "no i wont cook thats setting women back hundreds of years" yadda yadda yadda "i am my own woman i don't need a man for anything" blah blah blah yeah in other words your a lezzer. god just accept society " i am woman hear me roar" yeah fuck off!

Farmed animals are sentient creatures. When they cry out do they do feel pain? Animals can experience many levels of emotion. Ain't you ever had a pet?

Yes, such animals are indeed raised so that many may eat meat. But thanking us? Also, this should not excuse any cruel treatment.

If a woman does not wish to cook then that is her choice. It is not her duty - that as a woman she should. And no,a woman's independance does not determine her sexuality. Forget the stereotype. Do not equate feminism with the hating of men.

Just accept society? Should we accept discriminative practices, inequality?

[lepeep]

Just accept society? Should we accept discriminative practices' date=' inequality?[/quote']

Christ, man can't even care about fellow man, let alond some doe eyed cow.

you've got no chance of living in the world you imagine.

(Neither Do I by the way, as it involves culling many millions of consumers (yes, that probably does include me too).)

[Guest allsystemsfail]

but you did compare the eating habits of humans to predatory animals. and you said that animals craved the hunt. my point was that they crave the food at the end of the hunt and not the hunt itself as you had said and which was a comment i myself found to be ridiculous.

just cause you speak from experience does not make it fact' date=' it just means you found it relatively easy to make the transition. i on the other hand would require a complete lifestyle change to go vegan not to mention have to learn a wealth of new skills in the kitchen pretty quick. preparing a large and fulfilling vegan meal is unfortunately a lot more complicated than buying a birdseye chicken chargrill and whacking it in the oven with some chips.[/quote']

I'm sorry, but I said no similarity in the eating habits of both humans and non human animals exists, at least not interms of instinct. Crave was perhaps the wrong word. Should have chosen my use of words a little more wisely.

Becoming vegetarian would involve a complete lifestyle change? How so? Are you not aware of the great range of vegan/vegetarian convenience foods? One vegan friend of mine does little cooking.

[midgeski]

Farmed animals are sentient creatures. When they cry out do they do feel pain? Animals can experience many levels of emotion. Ain't you ever had a pet?

Yes' date=' such animals are indeed raised so that many may eat meat. But thanking us? Also, this should not excuse any cruel treatment.

If a woman does not wish to cook then that is her choice. It is not her duty - that as a woman she should. And no,a woman's independance does not determine her sexuality. Forget the stereotype. Do not equate feminism with the hating of men.

Just accept society? Should we accept discriminative practices, inequality?[/quote']

oh fuck off!! i just don't care anymore- lets have it your way and we'll just stop eating meat. we should all turn into fricking veggies and eat nothing but carrots. that what you wanted to hear? my views are all wrong i am just so stupid.

[lepeep]

System,

some of your points almost border on "religion" or afterlife reasons as why man should not be "cruel" to farmed animals (any animal for that matter).

Why shouldn't animals be killed for food ? does "a death" equate to cruelty ?

Or is that just the anarcho veggie saying that any death is "cruel"?

and, if it is crule, why is it cruel ? if there is no consiquence to the action (no trip to hell for mr Abitoir worker) then, what's the problem ? it's the "way of life", and as I think we all agree, humans eating meat is "natural", and being a veggie is "by Choice".

Like I said before, we've talked this one through before...so, sorry if this is re-cycling

[lepeep]

if this world is to be more balanced, surely we should live like South Americans, Native Australians...the MOngolians...

now, as I've said before, they're people eat meat, but manage the ballance of the land...tell them they are wrong, and they should only eat vegtables. (or are the "backwards and Uneducated" in the ways of modern thinking / life ?)

[Guest allsystemsfail]

I believe that's a misconstrued argument. This issue only exists because we as humans have consciences and a sense of right and wrong. Animals do not display this.

I see it as blatantly obvious that humans are special.

Which brings me onto another thing - abortion is accepted as bveing ok' date=' but imagine the uproar if a pregnant rare endangered animal like a White Rhino was killed. I don't knowif there is a white rhino, or indeed if they are endangered, but you get the point.

It's stupid.

I love animals, but I have no qualms with eating them for my own gain......[/quote']

It is not at all a mistaken arguement. Humans, as I've said, have no special place in nature. It is only dominant christian and European thought that would have us believe so - that by the very fact that we are human we can do as we please - use animals and nature as we wish. Such a belief is nonsense.

Regarding abortion, I believe no contradiction, and support a woman's right to choose. To compare the killing of a pregnant adult rhino with that of a human fetus is ridiculous.

[Guest allsystemsfail]

oh fuck off!! i just don't care anymore- lets have it your way and we'll just stop eating meat. we should all turn into fricking veggies and eat nothing but carrots. that what you wanted to hear? my views are all wrong i am just so stupid.

Oh fuck off? Why so abusive? Have I resonded to any of your posts in such a manner?

Look, if you'd actually read my posts you will have seen that I ain't got a problem with folks who eat meat. I ask only that they be aware of the treatment of the animals they eat.

And no, those who choose not to eat meat do not eat only carrotts.

[framheim]

I'm sorry' date=' but I said no similarity in the eating habits of both humans and non human animals exists, at least not interms of instinct. Crave was perhaps the wrong word. Should have chosen my use of words a little more wisely.

Becoming vegetarian would involve a complete lifestyle change? How so? Are you not aware of the great range of vegan/vegetarian convenience foods? One vegan friend of mine does little cooking.[/quote']

i didn't say that you had said there was a similarity, i was just pointing out that you had insitgated the comparison by comparing the way man and animals obtain their food.

it would involve a complete lifestyle change because i'm used to eating a large amount of meat and so is my girlfriend. if i went vegetarian then so would she or we would have to cook two seperate meals at night as well as buy a extra shopping. plus if i was to go vegetarian that would be a commitment i'd taken to live by certain principles and as such would probably have to change other parts of my life as well, although that wouldn't have to happen instantly. sure i could just go vegetarian and eat birdseye veggie burgers every night but what would be the point? you wouldn't be helping anyone by doing that except maybe your own risk of heart disease but then there are health benefits to eating meat in moderation as well. it's never as simple as you try and make it out to be, but we can all agree that vegetarianism is a good thing for those that choose it.

going vegan is out of the question for me though, too much to give up. but again i applaud those who have done it.

[lepeep]

It is not at all a mistaken arguement. Humans' date=' as I've said, have no special place in nature. It is only dominant christian and European thought that would have us believe so - that by the very fact that we are human we can do as we please - use animals and nature as we wish. Such a belief is nonsense.[/quote']

That is one of the reasons I hate religions, is that they place humans above animals, as we are animals...but that is no reason to think that's why humans eat meat! we've been eating meat long since before religion told us we are superior to animals!

[friendlybikerdude]

It is not at all a mistaken arguement. Humans' date=' as I've said, have no special place in nature. It is only dominant christian and European thought that would have us believe so - that by the very fact that we are human we can do as we please - use animals and nature as we wish. Such a belief is nonsense.

Regarding abortion, I believe no contradiction, and support a woman's right to choose. To compare the killing of a pregnant adult rhino with that of a human fetus is ridiculous.

So a person aint pregnant if there's a foetus in her womb? I believe Rhino's begin life as foetus's too. Yeah, i see man as the centre of the universe. I see life beginning when the full complement of genetic material is assembled - at fertilisation....

There's kinda a whole heap of argument's and issues which've come out of this thread........

People have different worldviews.

At the moment my worldview is that I'm oh so hungry, and will fill that void with the most nutrition I can, be it burger or whatever..

Yeah, so do you think it's cruel to 'kill' a carrot? They're alive too, you know......

Perhaps we should all eat coal.....

Santa's bringing alot of it for me anyway......

[Doc]

Those who seek animal liberation (as I do) do not consider animals in anthropomorphic terms. Also' date=' while I have some difficulty with the activities of some, and under no circumstances condone the infliction of harm, I do understand their frustration, their compassion. But terrorists? Not at all.

Primate experiments under current legislation are indeed permitted. I suggest you look again.

Vivisection is bad science. Many oppose it not on the grounds of animal suffering, but on the basis that it is an obstacle to progress in understanding and treating human disease. Such experiments tell us not about how a human may react to a given drug, but about how the animal test subjects will react.Many drugs proven beneficial to human health are harmful to animals. The reverse is of course also true.

I agree that the production of faux fur will indeed cause some damage to the environment. However, I would not encourage the wearing of such garments.

The farming of fur bearing animals natural? What nonsense. You believe keeping a still wild creature in a cramped environment and without access to water in which to swim natural? The present government, as much as I despise them, were correct in prohibiting the farming of mink, and did so on basis of the evidence proving the animal's cruel treatment.

And what's with this activist thug nonsense?[/quote']

In using the word liberation in connection with animals you anthropomorphise them. Experiments on apes are banned. Monkeys are not apes.

In fact results from animal tests differ no more than tests between individual humans.

Wearing fur for humans is or was natural. Farming is natural for humans. That is no excuse to not farm animals responsibly, however. It's perfectly possible to farm mink in a humane manner. Now thanks to "animal liberators" we have them running around the country doing extensive damage.

People who dig up the remains of someone's mother are thugs and terrorists. Period.

I will add, that I was very active in campaigning for the ban on both cosmetic testing and testing on apes. I'm still hopeful of extending this ban to all primates soon.

It is still necesary to carry out some experiments on living tissue, but this does not require whole live animals and with the advent of stem cell techology, tissue can soon be grown for particular tests. Eg, kidney cells for testing kidney treatment ect. Always assuming that ill informed luddites do not try to ban it on the ground of cruelty to individual cells.

[Guest allsystemsfail]

System' date='

some of your points almost border on "religion" or afterlife reasons as why man should not be "cruel" to farmed animals (any animal for that matter).

Why shouldn't animals be killed for food ? does "a death" equate to cruelty ?

Or is that just the anarcho veggie saying that any death is "cruel"?

and, if it is crule, why is it cruel ? if there is no consiquence to the action (no trip to hell for mr Abitoir worker) then, what's the problem ? it's the "way of life", and as I think we all agree, humans eating meat is "natural", and being a veggie is "by Choice".

Like I said before, we've talked this one through before...so, sorry if this is re-cycling[/quote']

I would have thought my reasons in not wishing to take the life of an animal already quite clear.

Methods of slaughter do indeed involve cruelty. Often an animal is slaughtered without first being stunned or rendered unconscious.

[Guest allsystemsfail]

it would involve a complete lifestyle change because i'm used to eating a large amount of meat and so is my girlfriend. if i went vegetarian then so would she or we would have to cook two seperate meals at night as well as buy a extra shopping. plus if i was to go vegetarian that would be a commitment i'd taken to live by certain principles and as such would probably have to change other parts of my life as well' date=' although that wouldn't have to happen instantly. sure i could just go vegetarian and eat birdseye veggie burgers every night but what would be the point? you wouldn't be helping anyone by doing that except maybe your own risk of heart disease but then there are health benefits to eating meat in moderation as well. it's never as simple as you try and make it out to be, but we can all agree that vegetarianism is a good thing for those that choose it.

going vegan is out of the question for me though, too much to give up. but again i applaud those who have done it.[/quote']

Sure, for some, some greater effort would indeed be needed. I guess what it all comes down to is commitment - on how seriously you take these issues.

What would be the point in becoming vegetarian? Would such a change not benefit those animals raised for food? Liberation begins in your stomach.

[Guest allsystemsfail]

So a person aint pregnant if there's a foetus in her womb? I believe Rhino's begin life as foetus's too. Yeah' date=' i see man as the centre of the universe. I see life beginning when the full complement of genetic material is assembled - at fertilisation....

There's kinda a whole heap of argument's and issues which've come out of this thread........

People have different worldviews.

At the moment my worldview is that I'm oh so hungry, and will fill that void with the most nutrition I can, be it burger or whatever..

Yeah, so do you think it's cruel to 'kill' a carrot? They're alive too, you know......

Perhaps we should all eat coal.....

Santa's bringing alot of it for me anyway......[/quote']

You were talking about the death of an adult rhino were you not? Does the abortion of a human fetus involve the death of the mother?

And a carrot? Is a carrot sentient? Is it aware of its own existence? Can it experience pain? Of course not.

[Guest allsystemsfail]

In using the word liberation in connection with animals you anthropomorphise them. Experiments on apes are banned. Monkeys are not apes.

In fact results from animal tests differ no more than tests between individual humans.

Wearing fur for humans is or was natural. Farming is natural for humans. That is no excuse to not farm animals responsibly' date=' however. It's perfectly possible to farm mink in a humane manner. Now thanks to "animal liberators" we have them running around the country doing extensive damage.

People who dig up the remains of someone's mother are thugs and terrorists. Period.

I will add, that I was very active in campaigning for the ban on both cosmetic testing and testing on apes. I'm still hopeful of extending this ban to all primates soon.

It is still necesary to carry out some experiments on living tissue, but this does not require whole live animals and with the advent of stem cell techology, tissue can soon be grown for particular tests. Eg, kidney cells for testing kidney treatment ect. Always assuming that ill informed luddites do not try to ban it on the ground of cruelty to individual cells.[/quote']

The use of the word liberation involves no anthropomorphism. Animals are sentient beings and so deserve our respect.

So, we agree regarding the use of animals in experiments.

The farming (and trapping) of animals so that we may enjoy the pleasure of fur is abhorrent, and cannot be defended. We need not fur to survive, to protect us from the cold. These poor creatures are killed for vanity.

Regarding the particular incident to which you're referring - that is the digging up of human remains, you cannot damn an entire movement on the basis of the actions of just a few individuals.

[Guest Charity Case]

Is it aware of its own existence? Can it experience pain? Of course not.

HOW THE FUCK DO YOU KNOW

I dont eat veg because i believe they are higher beings, they have been here longer than us and have had more time to adapt.

I believe Vegetables can feel pain as can trees and fruits

Plants eat plants

Animals eat animals

i dont think its natural for one to eat the other

[The Milner]

allsystemsfail one thing i would like to know. Do you feel there is a humane way to kill cattle for consumption? If they way they are doing it now is so wrong how could they do it so that people like yourself (and thats not ment as a go i just mean people who believe the same as you) will be happy? Or is it just a case of you feel we shouldnt eat meat at all?

Also what about fishing? Do you also feel it is cruel the way fish are caught? I mean i think its by far crueler to make a fish bite on a hook and impale themselves on a sharp piece of metal mainly for the benefits of a sport.

Im just curious.

[allstardawn]

to be honest you can't really compare the heating habits of humans to animals. animals have completely different digesting systems to us. meat is not absoloutely esential in our diets as we can gain protein & other nutrients from soya-based food.

and yeah, i'm a vegetarian