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So, Phil Anselmo


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Rob Flynn's video response was pretty good, I thought. Flynn is a raging, fiery ball of ego, but he often comes across as a GBOL;ATB.

Anselmo's apology is weird. He is sorry for offending people, but he doesn't seem sorry for being a full-on, raging racist. I think he's missing the point of why people are offended. Normally when someone who has used a racial slur/gesture is called out, they vehemently deny being racist. He doesn't deny it. He's probably comfortable being racist. He's just sorry he did it whilst being filmed.

 

It's not surprising that metal is populated with its fair share of insular gobshites who also happen to be a little bit racist. Heavy metal in general often comes across as incredibly reactionary and close-minded. Heavy metal forums are some of the most bizarre corners of the internet. I wouldn't recommend them, unless you want to lose a little bit of faith in your fellow man.

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It is a bit funny. One minute he was making up some bullshit story about "white power"  referring to  drinking white wine, presumably thinking it would all blow over, but then as the story snowballed and more media outlets picked up on it he made this very half-hearted and forced sounding apology, and still seemed to suggest it was all a joke. But then saying "I'm an individual, I don't want to be part of any group" is not the same as saying "I'm not a racist". I'm not sure I buy it. I wouldn't go as far as to say I'd never listen to Pantera again,  which admittedly is a rare occurrence anyway,  but yeah he's kind of exposed himself publicly as a racist shitbag and there's rarely much going back from that, unless you're People's Princess Jade Goody. 

Edited by Lemonade
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17 hours ago, Soda van Jerk said:

Anselmo's apology is weird. He is sorry for offending people, but he doesn't seem sorry for being a full-on, raging racist. I think he's missing the point of why people are offended. Normally when someone who has used a racial slur/gesture is called out, they vehemently deny being racist. He doesn't deny it. He's probably comfortable being racist. He's just sorry he did it whilst being filmed.

I thought this too, at no point did he say what he did was racist and therefore bad, he just was sorry to offend people. That is a really odd way to react to such negative criticism.

17 hours ago, Lemonade said:

I wouldn't go as far as to say I'd never listen to Pantera again,  which admittedly is a rare occurrence anyway...

This is an interesting point about appreciating an artist - how far do they have to go to offend your personal morals for you to no longer appreciate their art? I dare say there are not many fans of Gary Glitter & Lost Prophets left, but judging from the comments I've read about Anselmo's actions, there are hunners of apologists for his abhorrent actions.

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17 minutes ago, Doctor Acula said:

This is an interesting point about appreciating an artist - how far do they have to go to offend your personal morals for you to no longer appreciate their art? I dare say there are not many fans of Gary Glitter & Lost Prophets left, but judging from the comments I've read about Anselmo's actions, there are hunners of apologists for his abhorrent actions.

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/mar/01/gary-glitter-fans-paul-gadd-facebook

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42 minutes ago, Doctor Acula said:

This is an interesting point about appreciating an artist - how far do they have to go to offend your personal morals for you to no longer appreciate their art? I dare say there are not many fans of Gary Glitter & Lost Prophets left, but judging from the comments I've read about Anselmo's actions, there are hunners of apologists for his abhorrent actions.

There are a fair few apologists for Jimmy Page, Steven Tyler, Roman Polanski & R. Kelly's well documented love of under age girls, and John Lennon, James Brown and Jackson Browne's domestic abuse as well.... 

Most famous people are right horrible fuckers, if you weeded out all the baddies you'd be seriously hamstrung in what you listened to read or watched......

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2 hours ago, Doctor Acula said:

I thought this too, at no point did he say what he did was racist and therefore bad, he just was sorry to offend people. That is a really odd way to react to such negative criticism.

This is an interesting point about appreciating an artist - how far do they have to go to offend your personal morals for you to no longer appreciate their art? I dare say there are not many fans of Gary Glitter & Lost Prophets left, but judging from the comments I've read about Anselmo's actions, there are hunners of apologists for his abhorrent actions.

Perhaps he just proper loves racism, and being a racist.

 

As for the 2nd point, I guess it depends on how much of Anselmos views you pin on the rest of the band members he shares stages with. I've read that members of Pantera have often shot down Anselmo being a dickhead in the past. Should numerous bands be written off as a collective artform if one of them turns out to be a total wang? I don't really care for Pantera personally, but I do quite like Down. Not sure I'll be deleting them off my iPod as a result, but it will probably be in my mind whenever Down comes on that "this is a good song, but Phil is a massive choad"

If I really liked Lost Prophets' music, I'm not sure if Ian Watkins being a nonce would totally stop me listening to them, because the other 5 or 6 or 11 guys weren't nonces. Fortunately I didn't have that decision to make, as Lost Prophets are muck anyway.

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I can recognise that Lost Prophets had some banging tunes, and I have listened to them a few times since Paedogeddon, but yeah it's uncomfortable listening to Watkins himself knowing what a dirtbag he is. It's hard to say how far someone would need to go for me to not appreciate their art any more. Lost Prophets I can mostly take or leave anyway and I was never really that in to them and didn't have much emotional attachment to them. If it were someone I really admired it may be different. Say for example Ben Folds got caught with a laptop full of kiddy and tentacle porn. I absolutely love his music and I really feel an emotional connection to it. Would I still feel that knowing it was written by a beast? Probably not. Would I still feel it if he got arrested for wanking in an adult cinema, or robbing a house? Yeah I think I would. I think it's probably proportional, seriousness of crime vs how much you like the artist.

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However that said if Ben Folds was outed as a gun toting, Trump-supporting, hunting-enthusiast, confederate-flag waving dick like Ted Nugent I couldn't listen to him. No crime committed but it's against my politics so much that I wouldn't be able to, nor would I want to. All of that seems unlikely though. 

untitled_drawing_by_benmajoradrowned-d7c

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(Not familiar with Anselmogate specifically) but I don't think any level of cuntery could stop me enjoying what I thought was good riff/tune/song (or Appreciating the Artistry), per se. Though like everyone else above, I can't say there's any real test case in my head. I can still dig the one Lost Prophets' track that I previously liked (even though there's also the undeniable "I'm listening to That Guy singing" additional thoughts).Sweet Home Alabama is probably the closest; or maybe some of RATM's more down-with-the-imperialists moments. Or Chuck Berry.

On the other hand, if I really liked a band's music but thought they were criminally reprehensible, I'd still probably avoid buying their stuff, paying for gigs, merch; sharing their publicity. Much like a brand of burger/chocolate/soft drink/coffee/sardine/etc. might be really tasty, but I'd still try to resist buying it if i thought it was produced by some child-slaving, worker-poisoning, unionist-murdering company/supply change. I guess the threshold would there be serious crime, explicit racism, active support of a political platform/party/candidate I thought was truly immoral. Hmm. 

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48 minutes ago, Alkaline said:

How do people feel about Lemmy and his fondness for Nazi memorabilia?

I've always thought he came across as very genuine when he stressed he was a collector purely for aesthetic reasons and not to identify with Nazi ideology. But it's hard to ignore what the Nazi gear represents. I don't think Lemmy was a fascist or a racist, but perhaps a little ignorant to the symbolism of the gear he collected and often wore.

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2 minutes ago, Soda van Jerk said:

I've always thought he came across as very genuine when he stressed he was a collector purely for aesthetic reasons and not to identify with Nazi ideology. But it's hard to ignore what the Nazi gear represents. I don't think Lemmy was a fascist or a racist, but perhaps a little ignorant to the symbolism of the gear he collected and often wore.

I don't personally think you can wear Nazi memorabilia and separate it from what it represents. It's a tough one to justify as being "ok" and it's a very visual statement to make.

Anselmo has made a prick of himself again, but I love Pantera and his voice so it wouldn't stop me from listening to them (as others have said it's not just him that "makes" Pantera). I'm sure he's a decent enough bloke but whether he thought it was "funny" or he really is a racist or not, I dunno, some people have sick senses of "humour" but he's made one or two similar gaffes over the years.

I actually kind of respect him more for not saying "i'm not a racist". An apology for offending someone is less sincere when backing it up with a lie.

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11 minutes ago, Alkaline said:

I don't personally think you can wear Nazi memorabilia and separate it from what it represents. It's a tough one to justify as being "ok" and it's a very visual statement to make.

I personally don't think you can either. I certainly couldn't wear any Nazi gear because I thought it looked good. Having heard Lemmy talk about it numerous times, and the fact he doesn't hide from it, I do give him the benefit of the doubt that he is just ignorant how people perceive the display of Nazi gear, and somehow he is switching off the part of his conscience that recognises that.

I don't agree with it whatsoever though.

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Would it be different if he was collecting artifacts from Genghis Khan's reign or is it only relatively recent genocidal world leaders we have a problem with?

I'm just playing devil's Dick Advocat really but I always find it interesting time seems to have an inverse relationship with appropriateness. e.g. I can make a Titanic joke but not a 9/11 one (not that i'd make either really)

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15 minutes ago, ca_gere said:

Would it be different if he was collecting artifacts from Genghis Khan's reign or is it only relatively recent genocidal world leaders we have a problem with?

I'm just playing devil's Dick Advocat really but I always find it interesting time seems to have an inverse relationship with appropriateness. e.g. I can make a Titanic joke but not a 9/11 one (not that i'd make either really)

Not sure really. I guess, for me, things like living survivors makes a difference. Also, it depends greatly what he's doing with it. If he's wearing it and using its imigary in his artwork etc then not cool, but if it's part of some sort of historic collection in a museum etc its culturaly important. Difficult situation that depends on the sensitivity etc

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On 2/2/2016 at 2:42 PM, Doctor Acula said:

He's a bit of a racist.

I made the mistake of reading some comments to an article about his racist ways, as it seems that there are many vocal supporters of the old racism.

 The farm takes up most of the day, and at night I just like a cup of tea. I mightn't be able to devote myself full time to the old racism.

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He's issued another apology. And again left out saying "I'm not a racist." Just that he's annoyed at himself or whatever. 

As for Lemmy on racism: 


As for his collection of Nazi shit, he's always been very open that he just thinks they made the best uniforms and had good symbols. I don't agree with wearing it, or using the symbols in artwork, cos I know it represents a horrible ideology, but can understand collecting it to a certain extent.

Even more debatable...does he say "Sieg Heil" at the start of Iron Fist?

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My desire to overlook a band's personal politics is pretty slim, but I find it nigh impossible to do so when it's a "feature" member of a band. I quite liked LostProphets and used to listen to them a lot in my school days, but now I feel sick to the stomach knowing that a man I used to identify with wrote all that material while he was fucking kids.. It's not even a bittersweet thing, it flat out turns my stomach. If it was the rhythm guitarist I might have felt differently, I might have been able to ignore it if I really tried.

I went off Frank Turner when I found out he was a bit of a Tory.. not in a conscious way, I just started hearing the voice of an arsehole and I didn't like it any more. Even though he now says that he's not. I get what he was saying in 2009, I think, that a lot of people think (especially after Thatcher Fucked the Kids) that he's a screaming hard left socialist when he's more moderate than that, so being more right-wing than Bernie Sanders or Jeremy Corbyn meant he felt misrepresented by the reputation that had almost been foisted on him. http://www.theguardian.com/music/2012/sep/05/frank-turner-im-not-a-tory

If an artist makes transphobic or homophobic remarks, or says shit I fundamentally disagree with, it often colours my perception of them whether I want it to or not, but I think I'm in a minority of people who takes this kinda stuff more seriously than others do.

Henry Rollins' piece on suicide after the death of Robin Williams made me lose SO much respect for him - he just comes across as the worst kind of arrogant, macho fucking arsehole (http://www.laweekly.com/music/henry-rollins-fuck-suicide-5016770) which I know he kinda is, but at least he never seemed to kick down before. He seemed to target the big and powerful and stand up for the little guy and this felt like a real reality check.

He wrote a "retraction" of sorts a few days later where he seemed genuinely sad to have hurt so many people. Folks who wrote to him explained why what he was saying was dogshit and he seemed in his followup to really take it on board. It's easy to say something shitty, we all do it, but a genuine "I fucked up, thanks for calling me on it, I'll try to be better" goes a long way (http://www.laweekly.com/music/henry-rollins-more-thoughts-on-suicide-5027287).

 

In my eyes, if you support a band with openly racist members, if you wear the tshirts and buy the records, then in my mind it's saying you care more about the songs than you do about the politics... and I don't think any band are more important than these kinds of issues, whether it's contributing to the continuing stigmatisation of mental health issues, homophobia, racism, or domestic violence, rape, murder, paedophilia, whatever. You're giving people a pass on their crimes and it's not something I'm OK with.

 

As for Lemmy, I think his collection and use of Nazi symbolism is fuckwitted and ill-informed, and stinks of privilege, but I don't think it makes him a bad person and I don't think it reflects his personal politics (as the video above demonstrates). The reason it's such a dick move, and what sets it apart from, say, Genghis Khan memorabilia is that not only are there still-living victims, there are still fairly major pro-Nazi denominations, gangs and (though they try to deny it) political parties, which brings us back around to Phil Anselmo. When the Nazis are all gone, when there are no pro-nazi groups, when nobody living has seen friends and loved ones killed in the name of Nazis, then (in my eyes) it starts to become more of a gray area and you start being able to look at the fashion of it separately from the politics. 

 

But that's just me.

xx

Edited by Stroopy121
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On 09/02/2016 at 10:16 AM, Stroopy121 said:

My desire to overlook a band's personal politics is pretty slim, but I find it nigh impossible to do so when it's a "feature" member of a band. I quite liked LostProphets and used to listen to them a lot in my school days, but now I feel sick to the stomach knowing that a man I used to identify with wrote all that material while he was fucking kids.. It's not even a bittersweet thing, it flat out turns my stomach. If it was the rhythm guitarist I might have felt differently, I might have been able to ignore it if I really tried.

I went off Frank Turner when I found out he was a bit of a Tory.. not in a conscious way, I just started hearing the voice of an arsehole and I didn't like it any more. Even though he now says that he's not. I get what he was saying in 2009, I think, that a lot of people think (especially after Thatcher Fucked the Kids) that he's a screaming hard left socialist when he's more moderate than that, so being more right-wing than Bernie Sanders or Jeremy Corbyn meant he felt misrepresented by the reputation that had almost been foisted on him. http://www.theguardian.com/music/2012/sep/05/frank-turner-im-not-a-tory

If an artist makes transphobic or homophobic remarks, or says shit I fundamentally disagree with, it often colours my perception of them whether I want it to or not, but I think I'm in a minority of people who takes this kinda stuff more seriously than others do.

Henry Rollins' piece on suicide after the death of Robin Williams made me lose SO much respect for him - he just comes across as the worst kind of arrogant, macho fucking arsehole (http://www.laweekly.com/music/henry-rollins-fuck-suicide-5016770) which I know he kinda is, but at least he never seemed to kick down before. He seemed to target the big and powerful and stand up for the little guy and this felt like a real reality check.

He wrote a "retraction" of sorts a few days later where he seemed genuinely sad to have hurt so many people. Folks who wrote to him explained why what he was saying was dogshit and he seemed in his followup to really take it on board. It's easy to say something shitty, we all do it, but a genuine "I fucked up, thanks for calling me on it, I'll try to be better" goes a long way (http://www.laweekly.com/music/henry-rollins-more-thoughts-on-suicide-5027287).

 

In my eyes, if you support a band with openly racist members, if you wear the tshirts and buy the records, then in my mind it's saying you care more about the songs than you do about the politics... and I don't think any band are more important than these kinds of issues, whether it's contributing to the continuing stigmatisation of mental health issues, homophobia, racism, or domestic violence, rape, murder, paedophilia, whatever. You're giving people a pass on their crimes and it's not something I'm OK with.

 

As for Lemmy, I think his collection and use of Nazi symbolism is fuckwitted and ill-informed, and stinks of privilege, but I don't think it makes him a bad person and I don't think it reflects his personal politics (as the video above demonstrates). The reason it's such a dick move, and what sets it apart from, say, Genghis Khan memorabilia is that not only are there still-living victims, there are still fairly major pro-Nazi denominations, gangs and (though they try to deny it) political parties, which brings us back around to Phil Anselmo. When the Nazis are all gone, when there are no pro-nazi groups, when nobody living has seen friends and loved ones killed in the name of Nazis, then (in my eyes) it starts to become more of a gray area and you start being able to look at the fashion of it separately from the politics. 

 

But that's just me.

xx

A very sensible and pragmatic post.

Although, you should never have listened to Lostprophets or Frank Turner as their music is fucking terrible, never minds being Tories or molesting kids.

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