Flash@TMB Posted December 6, 2013 Report Share Posted December 6, 2013 I exaggerate somewhat, but it's true to some extent, and to be honest it's not entirely a bad thing. The bar trade is need to realise that the more someone has to drink the less they are capable of looking after themselves, so serving them beyond a certain point may potentially result in their coming to harm. However there are problems around establishing whether or not a bar has taken reasonable steps to protect its customers. Say for instance the injured party wasn't served directly, but had their drinks bought for then whilst they were seated elsewhere on the room, and that multiple people bought those rounds, being served by multiple bartenders in a packed room. Quite hard for the bartenders to keep track of how much a person is drinking under those circumstances. Is it reasonable to expect the licensee to keep track of this under those circumstances? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gladstone Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 I exaggerate somewhat, but it's true to some extent, and to be honest it's not entirely a bad thing. The bar trade is need to realise that the more someone has to drink the less they are capable of looking after themselves, so serving them beyond a certain point may potentially result in their coming to harm. However there are problems around establishing whether or not a bar has taken reasonable steps to protect its customers. Say for instance the injured party wasn't served directly, but had their drinks bought for then whilst they were seated elsewhere on the room, and that multiple people bought those rounds, being served by multiple bartenders in a packed room. Quite hard for the bartenders to keep track of how much a person is drinking under those circumstances. Is it reasonable to expect the licensee to keep track of this under those circumstances?Yeah - I totally agree with the sentiment of people being generally less pissed. Our society is full of drunk people all the time and it's a real problem. There are going to be a lot of completely knackered livers in the very near future. But - it worries me that the route being used to try and solve the problem is to hold the drinking establishment responsible. People need to learn to look after themselves rather than expecting everyone else to take responsibility for their actions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stroopy121 Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 (edited) Interesting argument. If you're selling something that fucks a person's ability to make decisions up, should you then become responsible for their shitty decisions? That person was sober when they decided to start fucking up their mental capacity, so surely it's their own fault and their own responsibility to not die? Anyone know if licensee liability extends to drunk driving? If a barman sells Mr Smith a few pints and he finds himself hammered and drives home, do the bar/bar staff land in the shit? I know that if Mr Smith were to go out and take a shit on a cop car and punch a few strangers then the last bar he was in take a level of responsibility (blame) for that. I'd also like to know, if I went to bar A and got shitfaced, then went to bar B, drank a glass of water and sat around for a while, then went out and shat on a cop car, which bar gets the blame..? xx Edited December 10, 2013 by Stroopy121 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gladstone Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 Interesting argument. If you're selling something that fucks a person's ability to make decisions up, should you then become responsible for their shitty decisions? That person was sober when they decided to start fucking up their mental capacity, so surely it's their own fault and their own responsibility to not die? Anyone know if licensee liability extends to drunk driving? If a barman sells Mr Smith a few pints and he finds himself hammered and drives home, do the bar/bar staff land in the shit? I know that if Mr Smith were to go out and take a shit on a cop car and punch a few strangers then the last bar he was in take a level of responsibility (blame) for that. I'd also like to know, if I went to bar A and got shitfaced, then went to bar B, drank a glass of water and sat around for a while, then went out and shat on a cop car, which bar gets the blame..? xx"Which bar gets the blame" is what is wrong with that question. Neither bar should get the blame. I've no idea as to whether either or both have to accept a level of responsibility - I'd like to think that neither would. I also don't know about the drink driving thing. I think there is a level of responsibility attached in that if the barman knows the drinker is likely to drive home they should try to stop it. I'm not sure if that's a legal responsibility or not. What I'm thinking about is that I'm from a village in the back end of nowhere and the local barman used to demand the car keys from some locals before serving them another pint (they'd probably already had 5 before he asked...). I'm not sure if that was the barman just being a good guy and not wanting his customers to get in the shit or whether he was looking out for his own interest (or both). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stroopy121 Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 "Which bar gets the blame" is what is wrong with that question. Neither bar should get the blame. I've no idea as to whether either or both have to accept a level of responsibility - I'd like to think that neither would. I do totally agree that this SHOULD be the case, but I know that one of the bars would get the blame, which is what I was curious about. I also don't know about the drink driving thing. I think there is a level of responsibility attached in that if the barman knows the drinker is likely to drive home they should try to stop it. I'm not sure if that's a legal responsibility or not. What I'm thinking about is that I'm from a village in the back end of nowhere and the local barman used to demand the car keys from some locals before serving them another pint (they'd probably already had 5 before he asked...). I'm not sure if that was the barman just being a good guy and not wanting his customers to get in the shit or whether he was looking out for his own interest (or both). This was where I was heading next with that question - if a barman decides that you're sober enough to handle a couple more pints before he cuts you off, but knows you'd be a danger behind the wheel and believes you're the type to drive home then let's say he decides he'll only serve you if you hand over your keys... Seems responsible, no? What happens if some other punter spots this and steals em from behind the bar? Or if the barman himself decides to take the car for a joyride? Or what if the poor drunk bastard blacks out and has no idea which bar he was in or that he left the keys there in the first place? It all seems a little too hand-holdey to me, with FAR to many eventualities for there to ever be a solution that actually works - the only system that will ever work is "look after your-fucking-self". I do, however, agree with a premises having to adhere to fairly strict rules regarding serving drunk motherfuckers, though, because way too many bars would offer ridiculous offers to deliberate get customers fucked up as fast as possible so they could make as much profit as possible without regard for people's safety. xx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gladstone Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 This is quite enlightening: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/asp/2005/16/part/8/crossheading/drunkenness-and-disorderly-conduct It's an offence to be drunk and attempt to enter "relevant premises" (which I assume are licensed premises) and is also an offence to be drunk on relevant premises and be incapable of looking after yourself (as well as going on to act in a disorderly manner etc etc.) And it is also an offence to buy drink for a drunk person and to serve them drink. So - the law basically says anyone that could possibly be held responsible for someone being a drunk dickhead, will be held responsible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teabags Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 So...yeah...Downstairs?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stroopy121 Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 I was speaking to Gav at the weekend - they're in the process of trying to get a 14+ license sorted out with a view to putting on some 14+ stuff through the week. I suggested open mic type affairs as a lot of kids would be more able to come down and do a song or two that would be able to come play a full on set. xx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash@TMB Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 (edited) To the best of my knowledge, as things presently stand, a bar can only be held partially responsible for someone becomming the victim of something, not the perpetrator. So if someone gets drunk, and is then the victim of GBH, the bar who served that victim might be held partially responsible for that. However the bar that served their assailant(s) would not be held in any way responsible. Likewise someone gets drunk and is mown down by a drunk driver, the bar who served the pedestrian gets into trouble, not the bar who served the driver. Don't take this as gospel, it's just my understanding, based of what we've taken heat for. Edited December 10, 2013 by Flash@TMB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stroopy121 Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 Ahhh, that makes a bit more sense! xx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neepheid Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 If they're going to push blame onto establishments and their staff for punters' drunken misdemeanours and misfortunes, is that not the same as blaming the car salesman for someone driving a car like a tit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stroopy121 Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 I'd say it's more akin to blaming gun crime on people selling guns, but yeah it's a similar thing. xx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Moon Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 ah well 14+ aint happening Hey all, Sad news.14+ Gigs will not be an option for us, at least not yet.Due to problems, mainly with our legal team not knowing exactly what it is we want and confusing the board...probably communications errors, We had to opt to continue until February so we could do a re-submit... We are still working towards it as the board seemed very keen for the proposal and also keen on what we do here! =] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Thornton Posted January 14, 2014 Report Share Posted January 14, 2014 I have a teaching studio and there is through traffic of both pupils and parents. Would you like to send me some promotional material and I can advertise for you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HateEvent Posted January 14, 2014 Report Share Posted January 14, 2014 Looking forward to playing our first gig at Downstairs this Saturday Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Gilman Posted February 27, 2014 Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 any news on the 14+ bit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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