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Thatcher Dead

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Some utter nutters on Radio 2 discussing the street parties today. Fella on just now has had a bottle of champange in his fridge for a number of years for the day she died.

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What i dont get is, she was the leader of a party of people who made decisions for this country. Why is it only her that people hate? She didnt single handidly do anything. The country was also on its arse when she came into power, someone had to do something and make very uncomfortable choices at some point, if it hadnt been her, it would have been someone else. 

 

I'm not big into politics and im no conservative (shudder) but i dont see how the level of hatred towards this woman is justified. 

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What i dont get is, she was the leader of a party of people who made decisions for this country. Why is it only her that people hate? She didnt single handidly do anything. The country was also on its arse when she came into power, someone had to do something and make very uncomfortable choices at some point, if it hadnt been her, it would have been someone else. 

 

I'm not big into politics and im no conservative (shudder) but i dont see how the level of hatred towards this woman is justified. 

her style of government was fairly autocratic. she led her party and defined it's policies, far more than any other politician of that era.  it's what led to her being ousted by her party and cabinet.

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her style of government was fairly autocratic. she led her party and defined it's policies, far more than any other politician of that era.  it's what led to her being ousted by her party and cabinet.

 

Yeah, but like i say, she made tough choices when someone had too, right?

Thing is, she is obviously before my time, but was she really the UK's version of a female Hitler? Did she really ruin our country? Or was she just the one in charge when unavoidable changes had to be made? 

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Yeah, but like i say, she made tough choices when someone had too, right?

Thing is, she is obviously before my time, but was she really the UK's version of a female Hitler? Did she really ruin our country? Or was she just the one in charge when unavoidable changes had to be made? 

Things what Thatcher did :-

 

Referred to Nelson Mandela as a terrorist

Opposed the fall of the Berlin Wall

Great friends with Chilean dictator General Pinochet

Her acts in Northern Ireland, including collusion with the UDA/UVF

Covered up the Hillsborough disaster

Removal of ship building/coal mining industries, then the chronic underinvestment in areas where these industries were vital

Falklands war, including sinking the Belgrano

The poll tax

Section 28

 

How many of these were "tough choices" that had to be made? How many were "unavoidable"?

 

I could go on, but I'm sure more eloquent people than myself are more suited.

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Yeah, but like i say, she made tough choices when someone had too, right?

Thing is, she is obviously before my time, but was she really the UK's version of a female Hitler? Did she really ruin our country? Or was she just the one in charge when unavoidable changes had to be made? 

i was just highlighting why she was the hate figure rather than the whole party or cabinet.  though the tories aren't popular in the communities thatcher's policies affected.

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Things what Thatcher did :-

 

Referred to Nelson Mandela as a terrorist

Opposed the fall of the Berlin Wall

Great friends with Chilean dictator General Pinochet

Her acts in Northern Ireland, including collusion with the UDA/UVF

Covered up the Hillsborough disaster

Removal of ship building/coal mining industries, then the chronic underinvestment in areas where these industries were vital

Falklands war, including sinking the Belgrano

The poll tax

Section 28

 

How many of these were "tough choices" that had to be made? How many were "unavoidable"?

 

I could go on, but I'm sure more eloquent people than myself are more suited.

 

She also called feminism "poison".

 

xx

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Im a bit torn about the Thatcher issue, on the one hand all the riots and protests didn't happen without good reason yet Maggie was still elected three times - who was voting for her?

 

I fucking hate unions, they had their place back in the day but modern employment legislation is now so robust that it makes them practically redundant. The 80s were a time when the unions were facing this inevitability imho and that Arthur Scargill bloke is and was a total bell-end. Maybe this clouds my opinion of the Thatcher-era but all in all i think she was nae bad.

 

/my tuppence worth 

 

:popcorn:

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Yeah, but like i say, she made tough choices when someone had too, right?

Thing is, she is obviously before my time, but was she really the UK's version of a female Hitler? Did she really ruin our country? Or was she just the one in charge when unavoidable changes had to be made? 

She was such a powerful leader, that she really was the Government. And her actions, certainly latterly were far beyond simply making unavoidable changes. She introduced an ideological shift in the country far in excess of what may have been required. It's quite hard to describe really, but basically she single-handedly changed the whole attitude, and 'atmosphere' of the nation. Not saying everyone was all lovely and nice to each other before her, but there was a quite noticeable difference - Greed is good, I'm alright Jack etc.There's a great quote from someone, I can't remember who, saying her great success was not just revolutionising one political party, but two. The changes she made to the country were basically irreversible, leaving Labour completely powerless, and the nation permanently a far different place.

You could do a lot worse than read Russell Brand's take on this 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/apr/09/russell-brand-margaret-thatcher

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Things what Thatcher did :-

 

Referred to Nelson Mandela as a terrorist

Opposed the fall of the Berlin Wall

Great friends with Chilean dictator General Pinochet

Her acts in Northern Ireland, including collusion with the UDA/UVF

Covered up the Hillsborough disaster

Removal of ship building/coal mining industries, then the chronic underinvestment in areas where these industries were vital

Falklands war, including sinking the Belgrano

The poll tax

Section 28

 

How many of these were "tough choices" that had to be made? How many were "unavoidable"?

 

I could go on, but I'm sure more eloquent people than myself are more suited.

 

Couple of things:

 

Nelson Mandela - bit of a terrorist. Not saying he wasn't fighting against an evil, evil system - but by any definition he supported terrorism.

 

Didn't oppose the fall of the Berlin Wall - voiced doubts about the infrastructure of a reunited Germany. Two very different things, The Cold War was a LOT realler than people remember. And of the 2 world wars we'd had in the 20th Century - Germany did kinda start both of them. So as a political leader in the late 1980's you'd have to worry about what would happen. 

 

There's a rush to define her and everything she did as evil and objectify every action as being specifically directed against life, libery and the pursuit of happiness etc. As has been said before - the 80's were pretty fucked for everyone, I think any leader would have had to make some very hard decisions......

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There's a rush to define her and everything she did as evil and objectify every action as being specifically directed against life, libery and the pursuit of happiness etc. As has been said before - the 80's were pretty fucked for everyone, I think any leader would have had to make some very hard decisions......

 

Thats my point really. Yes, im going to deny she must have made some bad choices throughout her time, but the 80's were not the sunshine time of the UK and the country was not doing that well. SOME choices she made, would have had to have been made by someone, it just so happens it was her. 

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Guest davetherave

Didn't oppose the fall of the Berlin Wall - voiced doubts about the infrastructure of a reunited Germany. Two very different things, The Cold War was a LOT realler than people remember. And of the 2 world wars we'd had in the 20th Century - Germany did kinda start both of them. So as a political leader in the late 1980's you'd have to worry about what would happen. 

 

I miss the Cold War, things were much simpler back then, East/West, push button/dont push button, laugh at the uselessness of nuclear public information films (duck and cover, etc), enjoy BBQs on edge of runway at german Tornado base, simulate NBC warfare in German woodland, getting teargassed, drinking subsidised beer at NATO headquarters, getting to wear the Moosefinder General hat after pulling large Fraulein in dusseldorf nightclub, I had a fucking great time during the cold war :)

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A least you got some decent anger music out of Thatcher's reign, despite everything that happened under Blair/Brown, what did we have? The rise of the X Factor etc...

Edited by Monster Zero

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A least you got some decent anger music out of Thatcher's reign, despite everything that happened under Blair/Brown, what did we have? The rise of the X Factor etc...

Still got plenty...

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Bit of a terrorist or a bit of a freedom fighter? She had no qualms with Pinochet but she had an issue with Mandela?

Couple of things:

 

Nelson Mandela - bit of a terrorist. Not saying he wasn't fighting against an evil, evil system - but by any definition he supported terrorism.

 

Didn't oppose the fall of the Berlin Wall - voiced doubts about the infrastructure of a reunited Germany. Two very different things, The Cold War was a LOT realler than people remember. And of the 2 world wars we'd had in the 20th Century - Germany did kinda start both of them. So as a political leader in the late 1980's you'd have to worry about what would happen. 

 

There's a rush to define her and everything she did as evil and objectify every action as being specifically directed against life, libery and the pursuit of happiness etc. As has been said before - the 80's were pretty fucked for everyone, I think any leader would have had to make some very hard decisions......

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Bit of a terrorist or a bit of a freedom fighter? She had no qualms with Pinochet but she had an issue with Mandela?

Pretty sure she never said he was a terrorist, she said the ANC was a terrorist organisation. And when you look at things like necklacing suspected police informers it starts look a lot more terroristy than freedom fightery doesn't it?

I'm guessing you know as much as everyone else on here about Pinochet including me - next to nothing. But from the little I do know I believe he was on a par with the Argentine Junta's rule - a rule that was overthrown as a direct result of the Falklands War. So were we baddies or goodies for that?

One thing Pinochet was famous for was the disappeared, people suddenly vanishing from their homes and ending up being tortured, thrown in prison without trial or never being heard from again. Which is kind of what happened with "extraordinary renditions" in Afghanistan and other places during the "war on terror".

My point is that there's a lot more to this kind of thing than Mandela good/Pinochet bad and snappy one liners - we should all read more before weighing in....

Edited by colb

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I never said whether Mandela was a freedom fighter or a terrorist I merely posed the question. You say we should all do some more reading...

 

I know a bit about Pinochet as it has been of interest to me for a number of years, I am no expert though. He is the very defination of a terrorist and she had him over for tea. I totally agree there is more to this than snappy one liners.

Pretty sure she never said he was a terrorist, she said the ANC was a terrorist organisation. And when you look at things like necklacing suspected police informers it starts look a lot more terroristy than freedom fightery doesn't it?

I'm guessing you know as much as everyone else on here about Pinochet including me - next to nothing. But from the little I do know I believe he was on a par with the Argentine Junta's rule - a rule that was overthrown as a direct result of the Falklands War. So were we baddies or goodies for that?

One thing Pinochet was famous for was the disappeared, people suddenly vanishing from their homes and ending up being tortured, thrown in prison without trial or never being heard from again. Which is kind of what happened with "extraordinary renditions" in Afghanistan and other places during the "war on terror".

My point is that there's a lot more to this kind of thing than Mandela good/Pinochet bad and snappy one liners - we should all read more before weighing in....

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I never said whether Mandela was a freedom fighter or a terrorist I merely posed the question. You say we should all do some more reading...

 

I know a bit about Pinochet as it has been of interest to me for a number of years, I am no expert though. He is the very defination of a terrorist and she had him over for tea. I totally agree there is more to this than snappy one liners.

She had Mandela over for tea too....

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Didn't oppose the fall of the Berlin Wall - voiced doubts about the infrastructure of a reunited Germany. Two very different things, The Cold War was a LOT realler than people remember. And of the 2 world wars we'd had in the 20th Century - Germany did kinda start both of them. So as a political leader in the late 1980's you'd have to worry about what would happen. 

 

Germany didn't start the first world war.

 

 

While I find people celebrating her death quite silly and some of the scenes of people having parties on the street with bottles of champagne really quite cringe worthy it doesn't bother me nearly as much as reading a load of positive  stories about her and listening to people say that we should only be positive about her now that she's dead. She was a person with morals and political ideals that I just can't stomach and the damage her leadership had on this country is still being felt so I don't really have a problem with anyone bad mouthing her whether it was the day of her death, her funeral or any other day.

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