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punks unite?


Aaron Gilman

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Hey man' date=' I like your band. I've said so already. I wouldn't have asked you to play a show I was co-arranging had I not.

Regarding those DIY folks who you spoke of - we cannot choose who raises us. Many do not hold with the views or actions of their parents.[/quote']

aye sound, i wasnt singling you out, hell i wasnt even asking anyone to like my shitty band, i was simply illustrating that sometimes we are made to feel like cunts because of our post-code, but if someone who fits stereotypical punk image live just up the road from me, then they are like the best thing since sliced bread?

As for the nazi band thing, im not down with nazis etc, but to be fair they can say what they want to say as much as i can, i'd like to hear reasoning behind what they're saying (without them threatening me cos im oriental).nothing wrong with learning is there?

agree to diagree on this one i'd say, i mean im not keen on the whole vegitarian or straight edge thing, and although slightly different to singing about how decent it is to hate jews or whatever, it is more or less the same thing.

this is goin off on a wee bit of a tangent now isnt it?

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Guest allsystemsfail
If punk has to do with politics then surely Fat Mike from NOFX deserves atleast SOME punk credibility...? He was spent alot of his own money and time in creating political awareness for the young voters of America by starting up punkvoter.com and by teaching them through his band. There have been more than a few occations where NOFX have given the money they have been payed for a show BACK to the audience beacuse they felt their fans were being ripped off. Some may say that bands like NOFX are just mainstream sellouts (or what not) but they actually work very hard to get where they are and use their fame in a positive way.

I am very interested in this particular subject and would love to learn alot more about it but i cannot understand why people want to keep punk underground and very similar to an exclusive club? Surely if Punk is about ideas and politics (fighting against corporations etc) then you would want other people to know about them?

Sure, While I have some problems with punkvoter.com, I for one applaud Fat Mike's efforts. Hey, if such a project is gonna raise some awareness, then great. NOFX having sold out the scene? I don't think so. Not forgetting that Fat Wreck have released some quite awesome material from outfits such as Anti-Flag, Propagandhi, and most recently, Subhumans.

The punk underground is not an exclusive club, but there are actions and ideas that I (and others) do not believe acceptable, these in my mind compromising the strength of the movement's message. Sure, I do understand this dilemna - how far should we go in getting a message out there, but jumping to a major is (I believe) a compromise too far. We're seeking to build an alternative - one based on community and trust, not one whose only reason is profit.

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Guest allsystemsfail
aye sound' date=' i wasnt singling you out, hell i wasnt even asking anyone to like my shitty band, i was simply illustrating that sometimes we are made to feel like cunts because of our post-code, but if someone who fits stereotypical punk image live just up the road from me, then they are like the best thing since sliced bread?

As for the nazi band thing, im not down with nazis etc, but to be fair they can say what they want to say as much as i can, i'd like to hear reasoning behind what they're saying (without them threatening me cos im oriental).nothing wrong with learning is there?

agree to diagree on this one i'd say, i mean im not keen on the whole vegitarian or straight edge thing, and although slightly different to singing about how decent it is to hate jews or whatever, it is more or less the same thing.

this is goin off on a wee bit of a tangent now isnt it?[/quote']

Hey man, you cannot compare the promotion of vegetarianism (a belief based on compassion) with the promotion of views that seek to incite racial hatred.

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That's fair enough but like (I think it may have been you, it was a couple of pages ago) said before lots people get into Punk (or what ever kind of music) through the media, be it MTV or whatever. With that in mind then surely a band signing to a major isn't a totally band thing to do. Fine they might be getting paid more but they are also getting the chance to get their music across to far more people and therefore spreading ther message and getting people interested in their scene and discovering other bands that arent as well known. I know that's how I got into the kind of music i listen to... A friend introduced me to bands like The Offspring and from there i discovered bands like Rise Against, Propagandhi and the Lawrence Arms.

I'm not saying that every band should sign to a major but I personally dont see why it is seen to be such a terrible thing to do. IF you can be bothered I would love to find out more about ethics etc of what you support through a PM or something...

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I know everyone in this discussion sincerely beleives in their own personal vision of punk and I do mine too, so Im not gonna slag off anyone for their veiws especially when they are motivated to fight the system......BUT

Has anyone spotted the similarity between the DIY punkas and a community of socially aware lovable hippies?....who incidentally were around listening to Yes and Pink Floyd at the same time as Stiv Bators threatened to kill us all with his Sonic Reducer

Its nice thats how its turned out to be one big love-in but I still have to ask where has INDIVIDUALISM gone....cos thats the message punk rock sent to me.....''BE YOUR FUCKING SELF''

I dont remember anything about forming a counter culture where we live in equally sized recyle-able punk communes and are not allowed to eat bacon sandwiches because its not in the new punk book of acceptable rules!

yum yum!

I conclude that Uniting the various punk factions might be quite difficult, which is probably a good thing yes/no*

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Guest allsystemsfail
That's fair enough but like (I think it may have been you' date=' it was a couple of pages ago) said before lots people get into Punk (or what ever kind of music) through the media, be it MTV or whatever. With that in mind then surely a band signing to a major isn't a totally band thing to do. Fine they might be getting paid more but they are also getting the chance to get their music across to far more people and therefore spreading ther message and getting people interested in their scene and discovering other bands that arent as well known. I know that's how I got into the kind of music i listen to... A friend introduced me to bands like The Offspring and from there i discovered bands like Rise Against, Propagandhi and the Lawrence Arms.

I'm not saying that every band should sign to a major but I personally dont see why it is seen to be such a terrible thing to do. IF you can be bothered I would love to find out more about ethics etc of what you support through a PM or something...[/quote']

Certainly it's true that a lotta folks will discover punk via more mainstream acts - bands that can form a bridge to the underground. It is a problem. However, The Offspring did demonstrate (with the huge success of Smash) that a band can reach a large audience whilst still on an indie.

Hey, thanks for your interest in the ethics of DIY. Yeah, will definitely send you some info via pm. Shall send you a message in a couple of days. Have only time to post very short messages right now, but expect a pm soon.

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Guest highroller

ok...throw this in:

when in that hardcore/christian debate a while ago Norma Jean were mentioned alot...now surely surely the fact that they have an extremely camp frontman who minces around and the fact that (to the best of my knowledge) they dont sing about political things means that they arent a real hardcore band (in your definition.) Therefore your argument saying that the fact that them bringing hardcore and the fact that they are christians together is wrong, is an unvalid argument as it seems like you only really are interested in bands who sing about political issues and they are the only ones classed as punk or hardcore??

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Guest allsystemsfail
I know everyone in this discussion sincerely beleives in their own personal vision of punk and I do mine too' date=' so Im not gonna slag off anyone for their veiws especially when they are motivated to fight the system......BUT

Has anyone spotted the similarity between the DIY punkas and a community of socially aware lovable hippies?....who incidentally were around listening to Yes and Pink Floyd at the same time as Stiv Bators threatened to kill us all with his Sonic Reducer

Its nice thats how its turned out to be one big love-in but I still have to ask where has INDIVIDUALISM gone....cos thats the message punk rock sent to me.....''BE YOUR FUCKING SELF''

I dont remember anything about forming a counter culture where we live in equally sized recyle-able punk communes and are not allowed to eat bacon sandwiches because its not in the new punk book of acceptable rules!

yum yum!

I conclude that Uniting the various punk factions might be quite difficult, which is probably a good thing yes/no*[/quote']

It is true that hippy and punk share many common interests - that is in terms of political action and belief. Crass in particular - whose politics would shape the anarcho-punk community, were inspired by many of the social movements of the 1960s and early 1970s.

Just out of curiousity, in what way have you been active politically?

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Guest allsystemsfail
ok...throw this in:

when in that hardcore/christian debate a while ago Norma Jean were mentioned alot...now surely surely the fact that they have an extremely camp frontman who minces around and the fact that (to the best of my knowledge) they dont sing about political things means that they arent a real hardcore band (in your definition.) Therefore your argument saying that the fact that them bringing hardcore and the fact that they are christians together is wrong' date=' is an unvalid argument as it seems like you only really are interested in bands who sing about political issues and they are the only ones classed as punk or hardcore??[/quote']

I did actually answer this question on that very thread. I guess you didn't see it.

Whether an outfit is addressing issues of political concern via their music or not, is irrelevant. There are a lotta punk outfits out there who don't touch on politics at all. However, there are beliefs that are of extreme importance to the movement - that underpin it, and these cannot be forgotten. They are what make the scene what it is.

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Guest highroller

yeah but i just dont see how it underpins it AT ALL!!!

I mean just cos some bands sing about it and some dont doesnt mean that you take the fact that some do as the underpinning of that scene...

I just dont think you obviously are paying much attention to modern acts that are seen as the leading bands amongst the "hardcore" scene nowadays...that may be the case...fair enough...you may not like any of it...but it means that your ability to comment on it is slightly stunted...yes? no? Just as mine is one the acts that you probably listen to every day.

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Guest allsystemsfail
yeah but i just dont see how it underpins it AT ALL!!!

I mean just cos some bands sing about it and some dont doesnt mean that you take the fact that some do as the underpinning of that scene...

I just dont think you obviously are paying much attention to modern acts that are seen as the leading bands amongst the "hardcore" scene nowadays...that may be the case...fair enough...you may not like any of it...but it means that your ability to comment on it is slightly stunted...yes? no? Just as mine is one the acts that you probably listen to every day.

There are generally accepted beliefs held by most in the punk/hardcore community. The DIY ethos is central to these, as is anti-authoritarian opinion. And so, whether I am checking out the hardcore communities latest leading lights or not, should not affect what I say in any way. I should stress however that I do not only listen to bands of yesteryear, but have a keen interest in what is going on today. Via zines for instance. There are also lot of current acts who I love.

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Fascists should not be permitted any foothold in our community. They should not be permitted (under any circumstances) a platform from which to preach racial intolerance - a hatred of those those who they believe inferior. Such views are an anathema to those like myself' date=' who are active in the punk community. They conflict with punk's central tenet - a thirst for freedom - a seeking of social justice and equality. Their politics have, as I've said, inspired beatings and murder. What should we tell their victims? Hey, they're just different?[/quote']

I agree that I'd rather facist scumbags did NOT take the stage (and prefably took a long walk off a short pier), but if you have a movement that has the ethic that anyone can get on the stage and say what they like, then you can't guarantee that what everyone says is going to be good.

I don't want to turn this into a freedom of speech debate, but I hope you understand my point that claiming punk allows everybody a voice and then getting squeemish when people who should really keep there mouths shut adopt that voice is an interesting problem...

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Guest allsystemsfail
I agree that I'd rather facist scumbags did NOT take the stage (and prefably took a long walk off a short pier)' date=' but if you have a movement that has the ethic that anyone can get on the stage and say what they like, then you can't guarantee that what everyone says is going to be good.

I don't want to turn this into a freedom of speech debate, but I hope you understand my point that claiming punk allows everybody a voice and then getting squeemish when people who should really keep there mouths shut adopt that voice is an interesting problem...[/quote']

I'm sorry, but punk does not allow everybody a voice, permitting anyone to say what they like.

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Guest allsystemsfail
So who decides? Who decides what's good and bad without imposing rules and censorship?

No one decides. It is a fact the leftist/anti-authoritarian opinion is central to the beliefs held by the punk community. Such ideas are generally accepted. It is these views that make the punk underground what it is. They define it.

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No one decides. It is a fact the leftist/anti-authoritarian opinion is central to the beliefs held by the punk community. Such ideas are generally accepted. It is these views that make the punk underground what it is. They define it.

So then are people without thoses views not welcome then? Again im not trying to be cheeky, i think this is one of the best threads ive read on here for a while, ive learned a lot but i would like to know if punk is for people who only believe in leftist/anti-authoritarian views? cause thats what you seem to be saying to me.

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No one decides. It is a fact the leftist/anti-authoritarian opinion is central to the beliefs held by the punk community. Such ideas are generally accepted. It is these views that make the punk underground what it is. They define it.

you might actually find that some people with genuine punk (or more appropriately anti establishment) ethics might not agree with your strict codes and expectations as to what they MUST think and beleive in

Its a bit sad that a potentially ferocious social force turned into a toothless political committee

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Guest allsystemsfail
So then are people without thoses views not welcome then? Again im not trying to be cheeky' date=' i think this is one of the best threads ive read on here for a while, ive learned a lot but i would like to know if punk is for people who only believe in leftist/anti-authoritarian views? cause thats what you seem to be saying to me.[/quote']

As such beliefs are of great importance - have shaped punk, then those whose views conflict with these would not be welcome. For example individuals who hold with right wing or christian belief, those who seek to promote sexism and homophobia, and so on. Without leftist/anti-authoritarian views? Of course such people are welcome. So long as they do not seek to promote opinion that runs contrary with a seeking of social justice and equality.

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Guest allsystemsfail
you might actually find that some people with genuine punk (or more appropriately anti establishment) ethics might not agree with your strict codes and expectations as to what they MUST think and beleive in

Its a bit sad that a potentially ferocious social force turned into a toothless political committee

Genuine punks? So are people such as myself - those who make up the punk underground, not genuine? In your view it would appear not.

Committee? As I said, no "committee" is involved.

And toothless? How can a movement whose politics has inspired countless thousands to take political action - that has sought to push forward change, be described as toothless?

Shifting the discussion a little, but in what way are you politically active, or have been in the past? Just curious. I should stress that in putting this question to you, it is not in any way an attack. I am genuinely interested.

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Genuine punks? So are people such as myself - those who make up the punk underground' date=' not genuine? In your view it would appear not.

Committee? As I said, no "committee" is involved.

And toothless? How can a movement whose politics has inspired countless thousands to take political action - that has sought to push forward change, be described as toothless?

Shifting the discussion a little, but in what way are you politically active, or have been in the past? Just curious. I should stress that in putting this question to you, it is not in any way an attack. I am genuinely interested.[/quote']

its hard for me to be political when I dont actually beleive in democracy

i have never voted ..... not from apathy or laziness.....there is nothing I beleive in out there

i dont know what the alternative is .....but there must be one and Im waiting for it

i would consider violent protest if i though it would work....i think people take so much shit from the state we are morally entitled to fight back with force if we knew it might change things for the better.....but sadly history shows the system always wins

I basically oppose democracy as it is essentialy now a vehicle for capitalists, ran my corporations with their own agendas and is in the hands of corrupted governments...its fucked up basically

No politician or leader has ever said anything I can relate to

So therefor Im not involved in politics in any way

occasionally I do something on a protest basis....like last year I (and a pal) organised the Anti War Gig at Drummonds ..... but made it very clear that it was not a political event that could be hi-jacked by anyone with a part related cause or flag to wave....it was simply anti Blair/Bush and War in general......the socialist workers party tried to get in on it as sponsors, but we kept them at a distance as it would have compromised the simple non-aligned to anything message....it worked....we won a lot of people over at a time when most people were quite pro-war (during all WMD hype etc)

Ive also played at, roadied at, and done the sound/lights at (all for free) some anti NF gigs and one highly entertaining Gay rights gig. all in England btw. If there wasnt a protest involved I wouldnt have done any of them.

Thats about it really. Apart from delivering leaflets for my mum when she was in the Labour party. A woman in a posh house set two German Shepards on me for posting non-tory propaganda and I ended up in hospital with a chewed arm. My mum legally retaliated by ensuring the dogs were killed. So there is some social justice. I feel sorry for the dogs but they were sacrified in a way that taught the Tory woman she could not get away with assuming she could just shit on other people and get away with it. They should have shot her too.

But I have no problemo with anyone being politically active and kind of admire it (when its not right wing).....but still obviously fail to connect politics and punk rock in the same way other people do....probably cos I enjoy punk rock and hate politics

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