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Aaron Gilman

punks unite?

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why is it that a hostile atmosphere exists between fans of punk a la "back in the day" and the fans of todays bands?

and no im not trying to cause a stupid " what is punk" debate, i want to know where this ignorance comes from.

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Guest allsystemsfail
why is it that a hostile atmosphere exists between fans of punk a la "back in the day" and the fans of todays bands?

and no im not trying to cause a stupid " what is punk" debate' date=' i want to know where this ignorance comes from.[/quote']

Personally, while I love a lotta classic 80s outfits - you know, Discharge, Zounds, Crass, Rudimentary Peni, Conflict, and a host of others, I (and a lotta other folks who have been a part of the scene for many many years) are still checking out shows, running distros, producing zines etc. They're still very much a part of the punk community, and for many it's their life. There are a lotta current acts out there that I love. So, I'm puzzled. Sure, I guess you could say that some hostility does indeed exist regarding the mainstreaming of punk. And for that you gotta blame folks such as NFG, Blink, and The Offspring. The result? A scene devoid of any meaning.

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why is it that a hostile atmosphere exists between fans of punk a la "back in the day" and the fans of todays bands?

I think basically it's the generation gap - bearing in mind the 25+ year lifespan of the genre. The typical non-alignment of young and old that happens in most aspects of life.

Hostility? I don't see it - more like a lack of understanding of each other's standpoints. Maybe even an unwillingness to understand, but nothing I'd personally get that worked up over. Hell, at the end of the day it's only r'n'r. :rolleyes:

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Sure' date=' I guess you could say that some hostility does indeed exist regarding the mainstreaming of punk. And for that you gotta blame folks such as NFG, Blink, and The Offspring. The result? A scene devoid of any meaning.[/quote']

i agree but at the same time i dont see why. Bands like Blink Dont claim to be "punk" like in old school terms they just happen to enjoy playing music that derives from punk. Thats just what i feel anyway.

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punk is the lifestyle by which i live and the difference here is not just between old school punk...its the melodic punks (dont wanna say pop punk cos thats too vague) and the crusty/anarcho punks...in aberdeen the difference seems so large which is shit cos back in 'ull line-ups mixed more...i remember seeing whizzwood play with an indie band and an acoustic act...the only time the crowds seem to mix is when the dangerfields play and thats very slightly...surely there is a middle ground to this. ive tried by putting on DIY punks that are melodic like One Car Pile Up, Shatterhand (both political bands) etc but there was still no sign of none of the crusty anarcho punks. I like both kinds of music but in particualar melodic hardcore bands like propagandi, strike anywhere, paint it black but i dont know anyone in aberdeen who likes them...such a divided scene. hopefully we'll see a change in that at the fireapple red and bosseye gigs ive got booked!

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Guest Bob

Aaron, the problem basically lies in a lack of understanding. In Aberdeen, the best we can achieve is tolerance, and very rarely that. You know as well as I do that every time us "kids" have tried to work more closely with the old school punks it has been rare for the two camps to mix.

Perhaps there is blame on both sides, but in the past, at DIY punk shows Point of Origin were made to feel rather unwanted. I don't even want to be in the cliques and clubs that do want me, so I certainly wasn't going to chummy up to people who clearly didn't.

I understand that many of the old school generation and those younger people who have joined that scene feel their music and ideals have been marginalised by punk going mainstream, but punk is not an exclusive group. It is a sub-culture that incorporates people from all round the world with widely varying views and beliefs who listen to all kinds of music.

Although as stupid as it may sound, I don't think you need to understand something like punk to be a part of it. Punk has been home to a group of people excluded from elsewhere because they aren't sheep, because they're willing to be different, to think for themselves and as a consequence, go against the prevailing social and political trends.

If we then exclude these people from experiencing for themselves "what punk is" then perhaps we will truly destroy it.

But, while certain people walk around with the attitude that "this is punk, and this is not" then acceptance within the punk community will never be acheived and ignorance will prevail.

In Aberdeen it has.

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Society is different. Being punk now is way different to being punk in '76. The word 'punk' (in its modern context) describes music completely different to what it did 30 years ago. There's no point in arguing about it, I just wish that someone had come up with a different term for modern (ususally American/California) fast melodic rock music instead of using punk.

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Guest prerogative
' date=' I just wish that someone had come up with a different term for modern (ususally American/California) fast melodic rock music instead of using punk.[/quote']

Me knows that the reference you're looking for, is socal punk :up:

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Guest allsystemsfail
i agree but at the same time i dont see why. Bands like Blink Dont claim to be "punk" like in old school terms they just happen to enjoy playing music that derives from punk. Thats just what i feel anyway.

Punk, in the hands of folks such as Blink or Good Charlotte, has shot from being a movement for change, to one that is largely vacuous - a product.

Anyway, I really don't want to get in to a debate as to what punk is. Just trying to explain where any possible hostility is coming from.

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Guest allsystemsfail
punk is the lifestyle by which i live and the difference here is not just between old school punk...its the melodic punks (dont wanna say pop punk cos thats too vague) and the crusty/anarcho punks...in aberdeen the difference seems so large which is shit cos back in 'ull line-ups mixed more...i remember seeing whizzwood play with an indie band and an acoustic act...the only time the crowds seem to mix is when the dangerfields play and thats very slightly...surely there is a middle ground to this. ive tried by putting on DIY punks that are melodic like One Car Pile Up' date=' Shatterhand (both political bands) etc but there was still no sign of none of the crusty anarcho punks. I like both kinds of music but in particualar melodic hardcore bands like propagandi, strike anywhere, paint it black but i dont know anyone in aberdeen who likes them...such a divided scene. hopefully we'll see a change in that at the fireapple red and bosseye gigs ive got booked![/quote']

Point taken regarding the non-attendance of more political shows you've arranged. Me? Well, I did intend to catch the Shatterhand show. But you know, well made plans and all that.

I love a lotta outfits who fall way outside the anarcho crust bracket - Propagandhi, antimaniax, King Prawn (RIP), and Capdown just a few. Really, I'd love to see a greater variety of outfits play together. It does happen, but unfortunately not often enough.

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Guest allsystemsfail
Aaron' date=' the problem basically lies in a lack of understanding. In Aberdeen, the best we can achieve is tolerance, and very rarely that. You know as well as I do that every time us "kids" have tried to work more closely with the old school punks it has been rare for the two camps to mix.

Perhaps there is blame on both sides, but in the past, at DIY punk shows Point of Origin were made to feel rather unwanted. I don't even want to be in the cliques and clubs that do want me, so I certainly wasn't going to chummy up to people who clearly didn't.

I understand that many of the old school generation and those younger people who have joined that scene feel their music and ideals have been marginalised by punk going mainstream, but punk is not an exclusive group. It is a sub-culture that incorporates people from all round the world with widely varying views and beliefs who listen to all kinds of music.

Although as stupid as it may sound, I don't think you need to understand something like punk to be a part of it. Punk has been home to a group of people excluded from elsewhere because they aren't sheep, because they're willing to be different, to think for themselves and as a consequence, go against the prevailing social and political trends.

If we then exclude these people from experiencing for themselves "what punk is" then perhaps we will truly destroy it.

But, while certain people walk around with the attitude that "this is punk, and this is not" then acceptance within the punk community will never be acheived and ignorance will prevail.

In Aberdeen it has.[/quote']

I can only talk about myself here, but I've been (in the past) extremely encouraging of "kids" regarding the checking out of DIY shows here in Aberdeen. The response however was not good, few (if any) making it along to these shows. They just weren't interested. So I gave it up. And I'd like to stress that this is not a swipe at anyone. It'd be so cool if some of these folks came along. And hey, I've caught quite a few shows at Lava/Kev. I'm open to new experiences.

You said that Point Of Origin had been made unwelcome at DIY shows - can you give an instance of this? I'm not doubting your experiences, just curious.

Sure, punk is not an exclusive group, but you cannot forget the beliefs that are central to this community - the ideas that have made it what it is.

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i just thought of this as an example;

in every other musical genres (even if the genre has changed greatly over time), the new acts embrace the old and vice versa, i mean a fan of current hip-hop wouldn't go a around saying that Grabdmaster Flash was shit,simply because he was doin his thing like in the late 70's?

but

its very common to hear comments from kids today such as "UK Subs are just one of those old school crusty bands that have no talent"

so i don't see how the point made that a hostility exists becuase things have changed, is really true.

i'd like some people who hate either form of the genre to post their reasons up here-not to have a go, but cos im really quite interested in them views- do you hate "new punk" is it cos its got melodies?is it cos the kids don't wear leather? is it cos the people making the music come from the sububrbs and all that entails?

-do you hate "old punk"-is it because they had attitude? is it cos they sang with conviction? is it os they dont wear famous stars and straps and atticus?

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Guest allsystemsfail
i just thought of this as an example;

in every other musical genres (even if the genre has changed greatly over time)' date=' the new acts embrace the old and vice versa, i mean a fan of current hip-hop wouldn't go a around saying that Grabdmaster Flash was shit,simply because he was doin his thing like in the late 70's?

but

its very common to hear comments from kids today such as "UK Subs are just one of those old school crusty bands that have no talent"

so i don't see how the point made that a hostility exists becuase things have changed, is really true.

i'd like some people who hate either form of the genre to post their reasons up here-not to have a go, but cos im really quite interested in them views- do you hate "new punk" is it cos its got melodies?is it cos the kids don't wear leather? is it cos the people making the music come from the sububrbs and all that entails?

-do you hate "old punk"-is it because they had attitude? is it cos they sang with conviction? is it os they dont wear famous stars and straps and atticus?[/quote']

A disdain for the old school exclusive to punk? Interesting point. The folks who hold with such a view should consider that were it not for outfits like the UK Subs, they would have no scene.

Regarding melody - well, as much as I love a lotta crust outfits, I really love way more melodic acts - Chumbawamba, Poison Girls, City Indians... Shit, Lost Cherrees could even be described as pop. A lotta old school outfits were extremely melodic, and it's something that I'd like to see way more of in todays DIY community. Melody? I'm all for it.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to seeing how folks respond to the questions you've put.

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Punk' date=' in the hands of folks such as Blink or Good Charlotte, has shot from being a movement for change, to one that is largely vacuous - a product.

Anyway, I really don't want to get in to a debate as to what punk is. Just trying to explain where any possible hostility is coming from.[/quote']

Its as i said tho they dont go about claiming to be punk in the old sense of it they just happen to play music that has derived from old school punk music. However you do make a good point.

I dont hate old punk i guess i realy dont know enough about what they were trying to do and say with their music to enjoy as much as modern "punk". But i can understand why old school people wouldnt appreciate what the younger generation are doing today.

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did Quik not support the Damned last year? I didnt go because I went to wrestling but what did the young punks thing to The Damned, and vice-versa, did any Damned fan enjoy Quik? Just curious cos I like both bands...again there seems a generalization to modern punk from mainly the modern punks here but it can be crossed over...take Freaks Union, my fave UK act who have played with Subhumans, DRI, Peter and the Test Tube Babies, UK Subs etc as well as No Comply, 4ft Fingers, Rancid, Capdown...Capdown themselves, as already mentioned are another band that seem to cross over between this gap...I think thats what Aberdeen needs...a band who can fit in with all styles of punk bands, the closest in Aberdeen seems to be Gilman Street cos altho their melodic I can hear a real Sick of it All feel to them

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Guest allsystemsfail
I think thats what Aberdeen needs...a band who can fit in with all styles of punk bands' date=' the closest in Aberdeen seems to be Gilman Street cos altho their melodic I can hear a real Sick of it All feel to them[/quote']

While i've caught them only once (supporting Eat Yer Greens), think Gilman Street are really cool. Asked Leckie if the guys could play a benefit show I was co-arranging, but unfortunately Aaron was gonna be in England. So yeah, good band.

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Guest Jake Wifebeater

For what it's worth, I like all styles of punk, from '77, early 80's Boston/DC HC, the AMAZING mid-80's Japanese stuff, right through to the late 80's noisse/grind stuff, and, for me, the common thread running through it all is the political content. I'm not saying punk bands have to toe a certain line, but the stuff that MTV tries to pass off as a punk product is emphatically NOT punk. Punk differs in the sense that politics are as equally important as the music, it is a movement for change as opposed to just another musical subculture. That said, I'm sure there are a lot of people who got into it via commercial channels, hell, it was seeing The Damned on The Young Ones on the BBC that got me hooked. You have to start somewhere, I guess.

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the stuff that MTV tries to pass off as a punk product is emphatically NOT punk. Punk differs in the sense that politics are as equally important as the music' date=' it is a movement for change as opposed to just another musical subculture.

when you say the "stuff that MTV passes" i'd be right to assume you're talking about green day, the offspring and blink 182 etc? this would seem to be the case that it IS MTV that claims these bands are punk, as i read jasons copy of last weeks kerrang, all of the above mentioned bands pretty much said "when people say we're punk,we say we're not, we just loved punk when we were growing up, it inspired us." that kind of thing.

so is it MTV and all things that commercialise punk that causes hostility between the church and its diciples?

i notice you say that "politics are as equally important as the music." is this personal politics as in how to react in situations or soley towards government etc?

i like this thread, its actually a disscussion, not just ranting for once, thank you.

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its very common to hear comments from kids today such as "UK Subs are just one of those old school crusty bands that have no talent"

I've never heard that attitude expressed I must admit ?(

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I've never heard that attitude expressed I must admit ?(

you know what i mean though? like often people who listen to modern day punk rock are ignorant towards punk rock from say 20 years ago? and vice versa

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Maybe ignorant but I can honestly say I've never heard a SoCal punk fan dissing older punk but then maybe I'm hanging with the right crowd :p

yeah sound like you're hangin decent folks.but yeah im not just talkin SoCal ken?

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Yeah sorry that was a bit daft to type that but of any of my friends it'd be the few that diss pop punk or newer punk as compared to DJs or Ramones or whatever. Never heard of a newer punk fan that disses the heritage of the genre. Strange but valid point you've raised :)

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