kybosh Posted November 18, 2010 Report Share Posted November 18, 2010 What's the difference between being paid in beer and being paid 30 which you then spend on beer in the venue?...no difference , I wouldn't play for 30 either Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigsby Posted November 18, 2010 Report Share Posted November 18, 2010 Adam, as a musician myself, I have no desire to look for an excuse to not pay a band/musician. I make sure I can get the best deal possible for all musicians who come to play at Musa.As for crowd size, that depends on the venue. At Musa, on this first Sunday night, I would say that about 40 people would be a successful crowd. Although I would hope for a lot more in the following weeks.I might add that I will be there on Sunday (unpaid) to make sure that I can get the best deal for the musicians.Ooh, pressure's on. Tough sell to get even 40 people out at 10 o clock on a Sunday night, but we'll do our best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Easy Wishes Posted November 18, 2010 Report Share Posted November 18, 2010 What's the difference between being paid in beer and being paid 30 which you then spend on beer in the venue?No difference if that's what you intend to spend your money on.There are those who will choose not to buy beer, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest idol_wild Posted November 18, 2010 Report Share Posted November 18, 2010 Ooh, pressure's on. Tough sell to get even 40 people out at 10 o clock on a Sunday night, but we'll do our best. It's Musa that should be doing their best to get those 40 people along. Not you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUSA Posted November 18, 2010 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2010 What's the difference between being paid in beer and being paid 30 which you then spend on beer in the venue?:-) Kybosh, you seem to be missing the fact that I said it is likely that the musicians WILL get paid. As I'm not the premises manager I cannot commit to any fees AT THIS TIME. If the evening is as successful as I hope it will be then payment will not be a problem. But anyway, if you don't want to play then, um, don't come and play. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted November 18, 2010 Report Share Posted November 18, 2010 ...no difference , I wouldn't play for 30 either Unless you're in a covers band you won't get much more than 30 at most venues in Aberdeen if you're just starting out.Obviously, as Adam points out not everyone spends that money in the venue on the night but I'd guess the majority do. So it doesn't seem quite as bad a deal as some are making it out to be.At least it's not pay to play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Easy Wishes Posted November 18, 2010 Report Share Posted November 18, 2010 At least it's not pay to play.It arguably is if you're paid nothing and spend on petrol, equipment, rehearsal time to play for free... Kidding, kind of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUSA Posted November 18, 2010 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2010 What's the difference between being paid in beer and being paid 30 which you then spend on beer in the venue?:-) Kybosh, you seem to be missing the fact that I said it is likely that the musicians WILL get paid. As I'm not the premises manager I cannot commit to any fees AT THIS TIME. If the evening is as successful as I hope it will be then payment will not be a problem. But anyway, if you don't want to play then, um, don't come and play. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted November 18, 2010 Report Share Posted November 18, 2010 It arguably is if you're paid nothing and spend on petrol, equipment, rehearsal time to play for free... Kidding, kind of.Yeah I know, but if you used that logic then almost every gig is pay to play. That way madness lies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUSA Posted November 18, 2010 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2010 It's Musa that should be doing their best to get those 40 people along. Not you.Don't worry, we're plugging away. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigsby Posted November 18, 2010 Report Share Posted November 18, 2010 Yeah I know, but if you used that logic then almost every gig is pay to play. That way madness lies.Fuck yeah. The amount I've spent on guitars, I'll be paying to play forever.Anyhoo, despite all the "Bread Heads" around here we should surely be welcoming this. Any venue giving up and coming bands an opportunity to hone their craft in front of a live audience and establish themselves is surely a good thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest idol_wild Posted November 18, 2010 Report Share Posted November 18, 2010 It arguably is if you're paid nothing and spend on petrol, equipment, rehearsal time to play for free... Kidding, kind of.No you're not kidding. This is absolutely fundamental. Regardless of what level of musician one is, there will always be overheads associated with playing a show for a musician, regardless of the locality.For me, expecting or asking a musician to play for free is an absolute insult, unless the circumstances require it (charity shows, fundraisers, and the like). And I'm saying that with my musician hat on and my promoting hat on. I would never even dream of asking or expecting a band/musician, regardless of their level/status/repuation, to play for no money at all. Musicians are providing a creative service and a form of entertainment, and the promoter has to reward that.I have booked and promoted bands in the past who have point blank refused payment at the end of the night, because they didn't feel they merited payment or didn't want me to lose money. I have had to force this money upon these bands. I paid for their service and in almost every case, was absolutely honoured to do so.Venues trying to invite musicians to play in their bar in an attempt to draw more paying customers through the doors to line their coffers, without guaranteeing a cash payment, is as low as a venue can go, in my opinion. That is literally exploitation. A venue or promoter should want to book a specific band (not just any old band) because they would love to see that band playing in their venue, and they really love the music. Not just appealing on the internet for any old granny and her ukulele to come and play for some beers. That sounds like the venue wants live music purely for the sake of it, in the hope it will add "atmosphere" or generate paying customers.I don't get the whole chain of thought suggesting that every musician should just be happy just to get a gig, especially when they are starting out. That is utter bullshit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Easy Wishes Posted November 18, 2010 Report Share Posted November 18, 2010 Yeah I know, but if you used that logic then almost every gig is pay to play. That way madness lies.Definitely...back-cripplingly expensive equipment they must have... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigDDG Posted November 18, 2010 Report Share Posted November 18, 2010 No you're not kidding. This is absolutely fundamental. Regardless of what level of musician one is, there will always be overheads associated with playing a show for a musician, regardless of the locality.For me, expecting or asking a musician to play for free is an absolute insult, unless the circumstances require it (charity shows, fundraisers, and the like). And I'm saying that with my musician hat on and my promoting hat on. I would never even dream of asking or expecting a band/musician, regardless of their level/status/repuation, to play for no money at all. Musicians are providing a creative service and a form of entertainment, and the promoter has to reward that.I have booked and promoted bands in the past who have point blank refused payment at the end of the night, because they didn't feel they merited payment or didn't want me to lose money. I have had to force this money upon these bands. I paid for their service and in almost every case, was absolutely honoured to do so.Venues trying to invite musicians to play in their bar in an attempt to draw more paying customers through the doors to line their coffers, without guaranteeing a cash payment, is as low as a venue can go, in my opinion. That is literally exploitation. A venue or promoter should want to book a specific band (not just any old band) because they would love to see that band playing in their venue, and they really love the music. Not just appealing on the internet for any old granny and her ukulele to come and play for some beers. That sounds like the venue wants live music purely for the sake of it, in the hope it will add "atmosphere" or generate paying customers.I don't get the whole chain of thought suggesting that every musician should just be happy just to get a gig, especially when they are starting out. That is utter bullshit.They're offering as a base level, payment by way of beer. If this isn't your kind of currency, then move along. They've also said that the bands will most likely be paid in cash.Have we all just skipped these points over?Regardless, you're also assuming that all musicians feel like you - and treat what they do as some sort of business. The only reason I ever played a gig was because I loved doing it, and the more gigs we played, the happier I was. Be it for free, for money, in a pub, in a garden, who cares? It's just about getting a chance to play to people. If it all comes down to brass tax for you, that's pretty sad.This is all academic though - MUSA have offered two types of payment... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUSA Posted November 18, 2010 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2010 Venues trying to invite musicians to play in their bar in an attempt to draw more paying customers through the doors to line their coffers, without guaranteeing a cash payment, is as low as a venue can go, in my opinion. That is literally exploitation. A venue or promoter should want to book a specific band (not just any old band) because they would love to see that band playing in their venue, and they really love the music. Not just appealing on the internet for any old granny and her ukulele to come and play for some beers. That sounds like the venue wants live music purely for the sake of it, in the hope it will add "atmosphere" or generate paying customers.I don't get the whole chain of thought suggesting that every musician should just be happy just to get a gig, especially when they are starting out. That is utter bullshit.I can't speak for my bosses, but personally I think this is a great oppertunity to showcase local and upcoming bands in a great space, and create a great new night in Aberdeen. Being fairly new to this part of my job, I have to start somewhere. I'm not looking to book any old person, and I am currently looking into booking local bands that I think will be great to watch/listen to. Once again, I do not expect musicians who want to be paid to play for free. I am doing my best to make it possible to have fees set in place for musicians. My loyalty lies with the musicians, and I will continue to do the best I can for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest idol_wild Posted November 18, 2010 Report Share Posted November 18, 2010 They're offering as a base level, payment by way of beer. If this isn't your kind of currency, then move along. They've also said that the bands will most likely be paid in cash.Have we all just skipped these points over?Regardless, you're also assuming that all musicians feel like you - and treat what they do as some sort of business. The only reason I ever played a gig was because I loved doing it, and the more gigs we played, the happier I was. Be it for free, for money, in a pub, in a garden, who cares? It's just about getting a chance to play to people. If it all comes down to brass tax for you, that's pretty sad.This is all academic though - MUSA have offered two types of payment...I am not assuming that other musicians feel like me at all. I am not assuming anything, in fact - I'm just offering my opinion. The words I express are purely my own viewpoints and stances. I never used to treat music as a business at all, but if people want to book a musician, they must be willing to pay that musician in cash, I feel. Bottom line, really. Offering a band only beer as payment will highly jeopordise the quality of musicians and bands you'll have willing to play a show at Musa. I can absolutely guarantee you that. Beer will not feed a musician. Beer will not pay a musician's rent and council tax. Beer will not even allow a musician to buy new strings or maintain their instruments. Beer will also fail to pay for the petrol money involved to get themselves to the show.And yes, being a musician and playing any old show is great. I used to have exactly that mentality. It's not a sustainable mentality, though, and I personally don't know any musicians who tend to play for free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigsby Posted November 18, 2010 Report Share Posted November 18, 2010 I am not assuming that other musicians feel like me at all. I am not assuming anything, in fact - I'm just offering my opinion. The words I express are purely my own viewpoints and stances. I never used to treat music as a business at all, but if people want to book a musician, they must be willing to pay that musician in cash, I feel. Bottom line, really. Offering a band only beer as payment will highly jeopordise the quality of musicians and bands you'll have willing to play a show at Musa. I can absolutely guarantee you that. Beer will not feed a musician. Beer will not pay a musician's rent and council tax. Beer will not even allow a musician to buy new strings or maintain their instruments. Beer will also fail to pay for the petrol money involved to get themselves to the show.And yes, being a musician and playing any old show is great. I used to have exactly that mentality. It's not a sustainable mentality, though, and I personally don't know any musicians who tend to play for free.Hopefully all these musicians are filling in a tax return and declaring all the fees they rake in to HMRC. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest idol_wild Posted November 18, 2010 Report Share Posted November 18, 2010 Regardless, you're also assuming that all musicians feel like you - and treat what they do as some sort of business. The only reason I ever played a gig was because I loved doing it, and the more gigs we played, the happier I was. Be it for free, for money, in a pub, in a garden, who cares? It's just about getting a chance to play to people. If it all comes down to brass tax for you, that's pretty sad.Having read this paragraph again, it really fucking bothers me. The best way I can get you to understand how important it is to pay musicians, is to ask you to look through your vast record collection and pick out your twenty all-time favourite albums. Now throw them in the bin and completely forget that they ever existed.Because if those musicians only ever played shows for beer, those albums would never even have been written in the first place. Let alone recorded, released and subsequently performed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUSA Posted November 18, 2010 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2010 I INTEND TO PAY THE MUSICIANS. Jeezo man!I also stated in my first post that, for the moment, I am looking to book amateur bands. And of course I will pay them as best I can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest idol_wild Posted November 18, 2010 Report Share Posted November 18, 2010 I INTEND TO PAY THE MUSICIANS. Jeezo man!I hear you, but to be fair, you have basically gone from "I might be able to pay, but only if the night goes really well" to "Oh, I definitely intend to pay the musicians". Also, to be fair, my input to this thread is largely void anyway, because you do stress in the original post that it's specifically amateur bands you're looking for. Which probably tells everyone they need to know about what sort of set-up Musa is angling for with their live music nights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest idol_wild Posted November 18, 2010 Report Share Posted November 18, 2010 I also stated in my first post that, for the moment, I am looking to book amateur bands. And of course I will pay them as best I can.Noted, picked up on, and alluded to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigDDG Posted November 18, 2010 Report Share Posted November 18, 2010 Having read this paragraph again, it really fucking bothers me. The best way I can get you to understand how important it is to pay musicians, is to ask you to look through your vast record collection and pick out your twenty all-time favourite albums. Now throw them in the bin and completely forget that they ever existed.Because if those musicians only ever played shows for beer, those albums would never even have been written in the first place. Let alone recorded, released and subsequently performed.Yeh, that's what I said - "musicians should never get paid".I wonder how many of my favourite twenty bands played a gig or two for free at the start of their careers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUSA Posted November 18, 2010 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2010 Idol_wild, are you perhaps suggesting that all amateur/locally playing bands are a bit shit? I also think you need to allow for this type of evening to develop. If there are touring bands available then I will book them, too. As I do presently for our Friday and Saturday night music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest idol_wild Posted November 18, 2010 Report Share Posted November 18, 2010 Yeh, that's what I said - "musicians should never get paid".I wonder how many of my favourite twenty bands played a gig or two for free at the start of their careers.Probably not that many, to be honest? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest idol_wild Posted November 18, 2010 Report Share Posted November 18, 2010 Are you perhaps suggesting that all amateur/locally playing bands are a bit shit? I'm not suggesting that at all. Not in the slightest.I am referring to the fact that you're looking for any old local bands to come and just fill your venue with live music, rather than sourcing the musicians yourself and tuning that evening towards the artists.It wasn't a criticism in any way to Musa, you or any artists. I was merely trying to point out why most of what I said in this thread is misplaced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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