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Pierre Von Mondragon

End Prohibition Thread

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Yeah, this is my end prohibition thread, where I call for an end to the state-sponsored prohibition of some molecules, and the insane idea that politicians (or indeed anyone at all) are well equipped to regulate an individuals brain chemistry. This at least saves me veering off topic at the slightest provocation.

Thing is, I'll happily admit that there are more important subjects facing humanity in general, and that molecule useage is a pretty trivial thing, right up to the point that some totalitarian removes the citizens human rights, then it becomes one of the most important things.

This will cover all molecules, natural and synthetic, thus allowing them to be fully regulated and taxed, with a set proportion of tax fully funding a comprehensive treatment programme for people who have adverse reactions to molecules that they cannot self manage.

Thats about as far as it goes in terms of me having "the answers", I likee debate on the matter, and I'll be posting regular updates from the frontline of the war in California, where they'll vote on legalising and taxing Cannabis in November. An act, it must not be forgotten, that would single-handedly deliver the most massive blow possible to the psychopathic Mexican Criminal gangs who murder over 10 000 people a year, amongst many other beneficial effects.

I'm sure someone will come along moralising about this, or even deliver the evergreen comedic line about "sending the wrong message", regardeless of over 10 000 years of Human Molecule Use. Well if y'all trust the Authority to regulate your Brain Chemistry, dig in, thats the same authority that used to prescribe speed in the 50s, and mucho Valium, right up to now, not forgetting Junior Speed er Ritalin. Its cool, all these dudes are totally trustworthy, cough, thalidomide.

It's time to legalize marijuana | Press - Telegram; Long Beach, Calif. Newspaper | Find Articles at BNET

Tax Cannabis 2010

Tax Cannabis 2010

Nice wee quote to finish

From 1996-2006, the first ten years of legalized medical marijuana in California, pot use among teens did, in fact, decrease. For 11th graders, it went down 30%; and for 7th and 9th graders, it went down 45%

This is part of the larger systemic argument being made by Gray, and organizations like LEAP, a collection of 30,000 police, prosecutors, judges, FBI/DEA agents and others who are actively against drug prohibition. "Prohibition never works as well as regulation and control," Gray said, at a Siskiyou County forum two weeks ago. "You don't see students on high school campuses selling Jim Beam bourbon or Marlboro cigarettes, do you? But they sell marijuana all the time." And here's the clincher: "This is far too dangerous to leave to the drug dealers." Dealers who, it is worth reminding, do not check for ID.

this from Get Your Government Hands Off My Marijuana - 420 Girls

Dangerous Water-Opposing Views: Marijuana Madness: Bong Wars in Minnesota, Florida

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I feel the need to post an actual opinion here too now..

I say all drugs should be legalised, the government could use the tax money, it might save stuff like music tuition in schools and stop the cutbacks on stuff like gritting roads and uni fees etc...

I also believe that if the NHS were to pass out free needles like they do with condoms maybe HIV wouldn't spread quite so hard? That's just a thought though.

I know a couple of good friends and family members who have killed themselves using smack and I know a few pathetic wasters who spend their days in the dole queue and waiting for their perscription methadone and it's a pretty shitty state of affairs. That said, my sister works in a pharmacy dishing out the methadone and sees the junkies taking their fix, going out the shop door, puking it up and reselling it...

A blanket rule saying 'this shit is illegal', followed by all the money in the world's worth of awareness campaigning isn't gonna stop the problem, so I say a new approach where we legalise the stuff and try actually dealing with the problem rather than sweeping it out of sight is the only way forward.

xx

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Should we legalise guns too? After all, the government could use the tax money, and a lot less people die from being shot than from shooting up. How about child pornography? Huge untapped market, it would make billions.

Apples and Oranges. Drugs kill the user and without strolling into the 'drugs create crime' debate, harm noone else.

Hang on, maybe we don't want the people policing our streets, teaching our children and treating our illnesses to be stoned, Uzi-wielding child molestors. Or indeed any of those things. Once those activities become acceptable in the eyes of the law it becomes impossible for employers to prohibit those activities in the workplace.

That's a pretty fair argument, but you could make exactly the same point with alcohol - I don't want some gin soaked jizz receptacle teaching my kids how to spell, but it's a socially acceptable passtime is it not?

There's plenty needle exchange schemes around the country, anyone who needs a clean needle and is able to walk to their front door wouldn't have much problem getting one. The problem is, junkies, as a rule, often have difficulty performing that simple task and don't necessarily care about how sterile their works are if they're desperate.

Point taken, that was just a throw away comment. That said, if you buy your smack from a licenced dealer, odds are clean needles would be thrown in like a toy in a happy meal when you buy your dose.

Tale as old as time. I don't see how legalising heroin would solve the problem though. As you say, you've seen friends go through addiction, so you'll know what the effects of the drug can be. After seeing people you care about going through that, do you really want the government to tell you, and everyone else, that it's OK to take that stuff? Do you not think they should be doing everything they can to prevent more people going through that nightmare?

I can't say I wish addiction on anyone, be it to heroin or alcohol. In all honesty I'm sick of how socially acceptable a casual alcohol problem is (especially among fucking students who wear it as a badge of honour) but then weed is illegal?

I don't think criminalisation of drugs works as a deterrant, especially heroin. Shooting up comes along with a severely nihilistic outlook and as you said, junkies have a problem processing simple tasks - 'giving a fuck about the law' is one they have a real problem with. People will use/not use/abuse heroin or any other drug that tickles their fancy regardless of legal repercussions.

The problem will never go away. Even if the amount of money spent on prosecuting, jailing, rehabilitating and educating drug users and potential drug users was increased tenfold it wouldn't go away. The system we have right now, however, does deter and obstruct some from using and obtaining drugs, and while it's not perfect it's infinitely preferable to the alternative.

I started to address this above and while you're absolutely right that it does deter some people, the kids who are casually interested and would give it a bash if they could get it, but don't have the street smarts to track down a dealer and get a hold of gear will probably never try drugs because of a lack of availablity. Legalising them would mean that on every other street corner a half score of weed or a handful of pills will be available for anyone who gives them a blast. This isn't a good situation to be in - at all.

That said, take a look at places with more relaxed drug cultures - the go-to example being amsterdam. Penty of well-to-do successful folks come from out that way and the drug 'problem' is minimal - most problems arrive when fuckwit tourinsts get let off the leash coming from countries where substance abuse is illegal. Same idea as the autobahn, majority of accidents are caused by fucko brits in their BMWs driving at 200mph because they can do it there and it's taboo at home.

Maybe legalising 'all' drugs is not the answer, but I'd say most are safer than alcohol by a fucking sight.

I absolutely see your point and there is infinite room for legalisation to bring a lot more harm than good, but the only examples of legalisation of any substance has been taken into effect, the problems associated with it's useage have decreased.

All just IMHO, I don't have all the answers, but our system doesn't work.

xx

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Should we legalise guns too? After all, the government could use the tax money, and a lot less people die from being shot than from shooting up. How about child pornography? Huge untapped market, it would make billions.

Hang on, maybe we don't want the people policing our streets, teaching our children and treating our illnesses to be stoned, Uzi-wielding child molestors. Or indeed any of those things. Once those activities become acceptable in the eyes of the law it becomes impossible for employers to prohibit those activities in the workplace.

I can't help thinking you're on the wind up a bit here. Apples and oranges? More like apples and wood glue.

To use the alcohol comparison, nowhere I have ever worked have accepted drunkenness on the job. Its fairly easy to discipline an employee for being blotto at work.

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Prohibition deters few, at the expense, in all senses of the word, of widespread misery, corruption, enabling of violent criminal gangs, and wasting the lives of our own citizens through uneccessary stigmatisation. That price is not worth paying. I say it again, the few people who may be deterred are not worth the damage caused, better we regulate and control, and use the tax to set up proper help for any of those who may be unlucky enough to become problem users, which is statistically unlikely. Funny how some supposedly libertarian minds run back to nanny stateism when it's some issue they dissaprove of, jus' sayin'. Ask a dead Mexican if they care if some gringos get stoned, or if they are more worried about the psychotic cartels enabled by prohibition, oh, we can't. they're dead already, sadly.

The workplace worries are proper funnily poor arguements, prohibitionists are at the bottom of their barrel, and on the wrong side of history.

Finally, there's the economic arguement that, by the rigorous iron law of economics*, prohibition can only fail. Prohibition forces prices up, high prices and profit margin attract people into the drug sales market. Forces of Prohibition: The Racist Drug War launch a crackdown, catching a proportion of people in the drug sales market and reducing availibility. This reduction of supply in the face of unchanging demand can do only one thing, raise the price and profit margin. This enhanced reward serves to attract even more into the drug sales market. Also, maybe the new sellers might feel the need to protect their business further, from intervention by the state and rivals. Another crackdown is launched, the cycle continues. Repeat until maximum damage is caused.

Humans can't deal with raw consciousness, this is as self-evident as a thing is capable of being, we need to flee it, whether through substance intake, or our own endorphins. That being the case trying to prohibit some substances while allowing others will never work, has never worked, and only causes needless and expensive damage.

*If you believe they are rigorous at all that is, some economic theories are about as rigorous as an EU Bank stress test.

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I can't imagine a crack head holding down a teaching job for long so I don't think you'd have to worry about that. In my opinion your view that the whole country would fall apart and turn into a drug addled mess is so far wide of the mark.

I also think that your understanding of the effects of drug use are blown out of all proportion. Let's say your kids have a great teacher, they get good grades are engaged in their studies etc. Would you actually want that teacher disciplined or sacked if they were found to smoke pot and take the odd E in their spare time?

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Yes, absolutely. I wouldn't trust the care of my child to someone like that.

If you found out that a teacher was having a couple of joints at the weekend, you would want that teacher sacked?

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I had a college lecturer who was a problematic alcoholic. Whatever they're on that causes them to be hospitalised or not show up half the time isn't really of interest to me. It always comes back to this with the argument, we have one of the worst substance snares fully legal, licensed and taxed. You see the fallout from it every night up the town, yet we can't responsibly enjoy a puff of weed with a nice bottle of wine without getting involved with that whole icky black market thing.

/2p

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Should we legalise guns too? After all, the government could use the tax money, and a lot less people die from being shot than from shooting up. How about child pornography? Huge untapped market, it would make billions.

.

I never read the whole post.

- Legalize guns?

No, guns are not even in the same chapter as the TOPIC!

- Legalize Kid porn?

Yeah.. I think thats a step in the wrong direction here, you need to evaluate what kind of argument you wish to make before stepping into this chamber with this kind of talk.

Point being, tax everything possible.

Ciggerrettes.... TAXED

Alcohol.... TAXED

Medicine (that causes extreme side effects due to lack of testing)... TAXED!

Why can't they tax drugs?

.....yes thats right .... because they are the drug ring. The drugs, the proper hardcore ones are brought into this Country by them. I dunno, see the American version, the CIA etc etc.

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The reason they are banned is that they are different to the substances that are currently legal, they're much more potent, addictive and more likely to have permanent adverse effects on the user's state of mind.

I hear what you are saying but are you saying that Cannabis is worse than tobbaco and alcohol?

You are entitled to your opinion about the teacher having the odd e at the weekend and a spliff at work but i think your wrong, two of the teachers who have inspired and helped me the most (interms of giving their tme to me and in general) had a spliff more than occasionaly. The odd E on the weekend, can i ask why you think that person is unfit to teach children. Id rather a teacher who has the odd e and spliff over some one who drinks regularly.

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The CIA are drug traffickers. I thought that was common knowledge amoung the masses... no?

Anyway I'm not gonna waste my time, just think about what Countries we've invaded and why. Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Syria amoung a few who openly produce opium. War just makes it easier to export these drugs.

Anyway, the point is; the Govt already tax the drugs and bust us down for using them. It's a nice little earner for them.

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If drugs were legal there would be a massive shift in public knowledge. It's farily evident that the police don't have a clue. My mum's a teacher and even she was laughing at the anti-drugs talk given by police officers at her school. All they see is the crime and squalor caused by junkies and the violence of the 'drug trade'. To them, and most people, drugs = crime.

The fact is that a lot of people who take drugs are so far removed from this world the current tactic of anti-drug education is completely irrelevant. What they should be focussing on is better education on what people can and can't take. If substances were controlled, their purity maintained (i.e. no rat poison in your coke or whatever), doctors would be able to truly asses their effects and therefore be equipped to advise people on their drug intake and how to deal with the problems that go with them. This woud then filter through to the rest of the community.

Tell a kid he'll end up in jail if he keeps dropping acid and he'll laugh in your face. Teachers being given the tools to spot the early onset of psychosis/schizophrenia through proper training is much more powerful.

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If drugs were legal there would be a massive shift in public knowledge. It's farily evident that the police don't have a clue. My mum's a teacher and even she was laughing at the anti-drugs talk given by police officers at her school. All they see is the crime and squalor caused by junkies and the violence of the 'drug trade'. To them, and most people, drugs = crime.

It's been quite a while since I was out of school but the drugs talk an officer gave at my school was an utter joke, then one of the fifth years (a notorious pupil) stood up and delivered a monologue about how he's basically fucked his life dealing ecstasy as he got caught with pills and grassed up his dealers and had to be escorted to and from school for his own safety. Quite a contrast :laughing:

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I'm on the side of legalisation. I really can't see how society benefits in any way from the current state of prohibition. Governments have just handed a lucrative market over to criminals.

If drugs were legal there might be more people trying them but I believe that if there was open and honest conversation about them these people would be trying drugs that they could use sensibly and keep themselves under control as most people are able to do with alcohol. I really don't believe we'd end up with the country addicted to heroin.

And if I had children at school it really wouldn't be any different to me if their teacher did a little coke or speed at the weekend than if they went out and drank 12 pints. I don't really see why it would.

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Weekenders can get away with it for a few years.... etc

The point you're trying to make here is that casual useage inevitable leads to addiction and dependance - you're wrong,

In some cases; yes it does. In most cases; it doesn't.

Also, you made an easlier post about how society will have to make the consequences / effects of drug use socially acceptable?

Complete and utter bullshit.

Try turning up to work either still pissed from the night before or too hungover to function and see what happens? Gross Misconduct.

If you turn up 'unfit for work' you lose your job.

Stop making shit up, you sound just like the scare-mongerers on FOX news.

xx

  • Upvote 1

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How dare y'all develop this while I'm away from the interweb, nae manners etc. If humans could deal with raw consciousness, we wouldn't have 10,000 years of consciousness altering history behind us, even lower mammals have a taste for it, but the higher the functions, the more we need a respite. Hell Dave, you just got high on the endorphins released after a nicely quote weighted rantathon, mmm, nice, feel those endorphins, unless you're some kind of simulation, even they probably need the endorphin model to work properly. All the stuff equating using natural entheogenic and even narcotic use with paedos is the last desparate shrill scream of the prohibitionist, aghast at the entertainment being had without their permission, keen to link it with the very worst degradations, unaware of quite how ridiculous they look doing so.

The Mexican problem is way too historically rooted for any swift summary, but a main reason for the introduction of Cannabis prohibition in the US was to give legal force to the desire to racially harrass Mexicans, the onus and guilt for the killing is on the prohibitionist, not the user. Prohibition is a new thing on this scale, use is over 10,000 years old, almost certainly older.

Of course by using the catch-all term 'drugs'. we are doing any rational debate a great disservice, every compound has wildly different cause and effect attatched to it.

Cannabis is not only safer than alcohol and tobacco, it is a plant containing compounds that are beneficial to humanity in the same way as the willow (aspirin) and the Fever Tree (quinine), topically applied THC has been shown to reduce and sometimes kill tumerous growth. Prohibition prevents the sort of research needed to see if we can create an anti-cancer treatment from cannabis, guaranteed if we can, everyone will be kissing the mighty arse of Cannabis Sativa.

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I suppose Dave's argument centres around personal responsibility, or the majority of the UK population's apparent lack of it. I guess this is a wider argument involving political viewpoints. I know that myself and everyone I associate with are responsible for themselves. Some have taken drugs that haven't agreed with them and so stopped taking them.

Legalise pot, e's and coke, regulate their strength and components and stick a warning on each.

Cannabis - Warning: This product may cause psychosis. If you feel mentally ill stop taking it immediately and talk to your doctor.

Ecstacy - Warning: erm, none really. If you don't like it don't take it.

Cocaine - Warning: Will make you an insufferably arrogant arsehole and repeated use will ruin your nose.

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Why would you legalise another substance, used by minority of people, making it available for the masses. Alcohol is already a huge problem due to binge drinking and general health issues but yes it makes huge sums of money. Gov/Industry can keep increasing prices in the name of "deterring over drinking" or whatever but anyone can still walk into Tesco and buy it. It is obvious that with alcohol available to the general populous there is a huge range of issues that are created. If you legalise pot and its usage ends up equalling the usage of alcohol what do you think will happen?

Most pro-legalisation stoners are maybe quite good at controlling themselves, knowing when to stop, knowing when to get help for mental issues. Its the masses of "Joe public" who don't know quite when to stop that would be in danger if they find that they can now get hold of pot.

Plus stoners are fucking boring, I can think of so many better things to be doing than slowly giving myself mental problems while disappearing up my own rectum! Go and get high on life man!! :jester:

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Why would you legalise another substance, used by minority of people, making it available for the masses.

Because of the resources thrown at policing it and the fact that this 'minority' will continue to buy it, funding criminal enterprises.

Alcohol is already a huge problem due to binge drinking and general health issues but yes it makes huge sums of money. Gov/Industry can keep increasing prices in the name of "deterring over drinking" or whatever but anyone can still walk into Tesco and buy it. It is obvious that with alcohol available to the general populous there is a huge range of issues that are created. If you legalise pot and its usage ends up equalling the usage of alcohol what do you think will happen?

Less violent crime and better movement in the arts. You can buy pot in much the same way as alcohol. Just not in Tesco and not legally. I just don't buy this massive surge in usage just because it is legal. This is the crux of my argument.

Most pro-legalisation stoners are maybe quite good at controlling themselves, knowing when to stop, knowing when to get help for mental issues. Its the masses of "Joe public" who don't know quite when to stop that would be in danger if they find that they can now get hold of pot.

As above, you can currently get hold of pot! There would no doubt be some people who fuck themselves up due to cannabis usage and this would all be blamed on the government for legalising it but Joe Public really have to look out for himself. Some people are allergic to peanuts. What should we do make peanuts illegal or trust that people who are allergic to peanuts, no matter how tasty they think they are, will avoid eating them?

Plus stoners are fucking boring, I can think of so many better things to be doing than slowly giving myself mental problems while disappearing up my own rectum! Go and get high on life man!! :jester:

That's all well and good but I think you should change your user name.

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As for the 'we can't be trusted' pish, so we should lock people up, because some of them are lightweights, and to protect these lightweights, an infinite amount of locking up non-lightweights is permissable? The only person that can be trusted to regulate the brain chemistry of an individual is that individual, anything less is serfdom of the mind, and the absolute LAST person/type of person to be trusted on that issue is an (EDIT) non-medical authority figure, ie politician/policeman.

All the FACTS from countries with more liberal controlled substances laws show that useage in these countries falls, often quite dramatically, as it has in Portugal and the Netherlands, and that problem use falls even more, go look it up, I'm off hame.

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As for the 'we can't be trusted' pish, so we should lock people up, because some of them are lightweights, and to protect these lightweights, an infinite amount of locking up non-lightweights is permissable? The only person that can be trusted to regulate the brain chemistry of an individual is that individual, anything less is serfdom of the mind, and the absolute LAST person/type of person to be trusted on that issue is an authority figure.

Are you saying mental health professionals serve no purpose? If so, you are pretty wide of the mark.

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Its different for the mentally ill, although many drugs used in the industry don't seem very humane, I've seen dudes on Largactil, and the pathologisation of what used to be seen as personality quirks/eccentricities rumbles on apace. No-one is a fidget anymore, far better to diagnose ADHD, and sell them some junior speed. Only those incapable of maintaining their own brain chemistry should have it maintained for them, and under a much more answerable system than we have at present.

MHPs look after ill people, this is an important job that seves society well, thats not up for debate. That our society wants to create a drug for every sadness, that maybe should be.

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Its different for the mentally ill, although many drugs used in the industry don't seem very humane, I've seen dudes on Largactil, and the pathologisation of what used to be seen as personality quirks/eccentricities rumbles on apace. No-one is a fidget anymore, far better to diagnose ADHD, and sell them some junior speed. Only those incapable of maintaining their own brain chemistry should have it maintained for them, and under a much more answerable system than we have at present.

MHPs look after ill people, this is an important job that seves society well, thats not up for debate. That our society wants to create a drug for every sadness, that maybe should be.

A MHP's job is much more than diagnosing and dishing out medicine. What about raising awareness, educating people etc? Also, it's a total myth that every single disruptive kid gets subscribed ritalin.

I don't think it is necessarily true that only the person themselves can be responsible for their own mental health. There are a lot of naive/easily led people who turn into space cadets by their mid 20s purely through peer pressure and/or their social situation. Drugs have a huge impact on mental health. Everyone has at least one friend whose head is fucked because he took too much. Legalization would bring about large-scale awareness of the dangers and that can't be a bad thing.

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