Cafe Drummonds

[Christy]

I would be happy with a few beers, but i'm still young and not really fussed about money, getting anything at all for playing a gig sounds awesome to me.

Fuck that...you're young...play for the slooooootz

[TR!ΔNGL€ T€€TH]

"I only play for money, I don't give a fuck about the fans."

[Oedo 808]

I think it's safe to say that none of us play for the money; it's not like I'm raking in a fortune from the one gig Point of Origin are playing each month, but the "I'm not really fussed" attitude is a bit amateurish in any aspect of your music whether you're talking about your material, your promotion, rehearsals, recording, gigs or the money you get paid for doing them.

[Oedo 808]

whether we got money, beer or anything, i was just happy to play the gig.

That's what an amateur is.

[mistersticks]

That's what an amateur is.

aw come on man, everyone has to start somewhere. do you remember when playing gigs was fun??

[Oedo 808]

aw come on man, everyone has to start somewhere. do you remember when playing gigs was fun??

There's plenty of people (especially in musical circles) who will give you props and a big slap on the back when you sell yourself short. Why should I be one of them? From your tone it seems to me you think I'm having a go at John W, when I'm not.

[Guest Gladstone]

I can see where John's coming from - he's young, and only fairly new to the scene. I remember when we started out, we really didn't give a shit how much cash we got paid for a gig, and still don't really care an awful lot to be honest. We would play just about any gig that was offered to us, and would have fun doing it. Getting paid was just an added bonus. That said - we've never played for nothing. We have been paid really shit before, and we have once been paid with a crate of beer.

These days, we are just playing gigs that we think will be really good, and when you get to the stage of being really selective with your gigs, they tend to be the ones that will end up paying a bit better. But we don't play nearly enough gigs to make any sort of decent cash out of it, so you know - that's not the reason we play a gig, but we wouldn't go out of our way to play a gig for someone for free, unless it was for charidee or something.

[Adam Easy Wishes]

Promoter makes money out of bands and as such should pass this benefit on.

I see exactly what Bob is saying, you can play for fun but ultimately if you treat it with a bit of professionalism the standard will be far higher and you will get more out of it (I don't mean cash). There are too many gigs on where new bands play far too early, and this is because they can in this city.

My advice to ANY young/new band is to WAIT and don't gig too soon. This would not happen as frequently if these bands had even a modicum of professionalism.

[Guest Gladstone]

Promoter makes money out of bands and as such should pass this benefit on.

I see exactly what Bob is saying, you can play for fun but ultimately if you treat it with a bit of professionalism the standard will be far higher and you will get more out of it (I don't mean cash). There are too many gigs on where new bands play far too early, and this is because they can in this city.

My advice to ANY young/new band is to WAIT and don't gig too soon. This would not happen as frequently if these bands had even a modicum of professionalism.

VERY good point.

You do get better at playing live, by, well, playing live. But before gigging you should be able to play all your songs absolutely perfectly. You should also take the time to not rush into finishing songs, just so they're ready and you can get out and play a gig.

Take the time to work on your songs properly, and think about them. Really think about them. What could be added/changed to make it better? Etc etc.

We have been guilty of not putting enough into our songs in the past, but I think we've got past that now. We did spend an entire year in the practice studio before our first gig, but we were still quite ropey - because none of us had been in bands before and it was all pretty new to us. We spent nearly the same time again in the practice studio when we came back with new songs this year - and the difference is clear to see. We're more accomplished musicians now, better songwriters, and have put some proper work into the songs.

[ben_1903]

I've been paid nothing on a few occasions.

And, without wishing to sound like some big head ego type person...it did annoy me. As a band its nice to get a few quid, for example to put towards recordings.

If we had been told in the first place that we wouldn't be paid and given the reasons why I'd have been cool with it. But when you don't get paid blatantly because the promotor did a shit job of promoting, got fuck all through the door and then had to give all the money to the headline act - its just not on. Either do a good enough job of promoting; or be explicit when you book the bands - "guys, this one isn't going to be a paying gig because of such and such a reason, hope you still want to play"

[Alkaline]

I'm not bothered unless it's out of town and then it's nice to have enough money to cover petrol/diesel and food.

[Guest Gladstone]

I've been paid nothing on a few occasions.

And, without wishing to sound like some big head ego type person...it did annoy me. As a band its nice to get a few quid, for example to put towards recordings.

If we had been told in the first place that we wouldn't be paid and given the reasons why I'd have been cool with it. But when you don't get paid blatantly because the promotor did a shit job of promoting, got fuck all through the door and then had to give all the money to the headline act - its just not on. Either do a good enough job of promoting; or be explicit when you book the bands - "guys, this one isn't going to be a paying gig because of such and such a reason, hope you still want to play"

I hold my hands up to having done that a couple of times with the first couple of gigs I put on. Thinking it would be far easier to get enough people through the door to make it work for everyone.

From a band point of view I can totally see why that would piss you off. I did always offer to pay the bands out of my own pocket (having already used my own money to pay the headline band, having not cleared enough on the door to even cover that!!), but luckily it was guys I knew, and they understood and didn't take cash off me.

I lost a shitload of cash promoting last year.

I didn't quite grasp how much effort is required to promote gigs and make them a success until I actually jumped in head first.

Promoters get a shit load of stick from people in bands all the time (I used to do that too), but it's pretty unfair most of the time. That goes back to the point about criticising places like Tunnels and Drummonds too much. Bands in Aberdeen should appreciate places like this, and there are a fair few promoters in Aberdeen who always have the best intentions of the bands in mind (i.e. I felt totally shit not paying those bands, and would have paid them out of my own money - some of the gigs I put on and lost money on, there was a fee agreed in advance, and I always paid it regardless of losing my own money).

[Lemonade]

Yeah I don't really care about getting paid. If we do get something it's a nice bonus but if they weren't in a position to offer us any payment I wouldn't give a shit. It usually just goes straight over the bar anyway

[Oedo 808]

I would have thought even if you didn't care about getting paid the sensible thing to do would be to keep that information to yourself, or alternatively tell everyone and get yourself an agent.

[Alan Cynic]

I've been in the situation where we got offered a fiver between three of us because "the guy taking tickets at the door needs paying"

[GraemeC]

I used to get a bit pissed off when I managed Alyssas Wish and they played a gig to 200+ punters and the headline/touring band would end up playing to the bar staff and they got paid toffee money while the touring band walked away with all the cash... now Im aware that the touring band need money to tour... but it was sometimes annoying and felt exploitive.

[stuartmaxwell]

ah lava paul. those were the days eh

[rcalder82]

Ok before this turns into one of those inflamatory threads in which I'm made to look like a whiny biatch I just want to gauge people's opinion on this topic.

Recently I have been really unimpressed with the unprofessionalism at Drummonds gigs. And I'm not pointing the finger at one person in particular I think it's a combination of things.

Firstly, The sound is dreadful. Every time we are asked to play Drummonds we are told 'turn up at 7 for soundchecks' invariably I get there and am met with looks of confusion. The sound man turns up and is none the wiser as to who is playing or what order etc. Callum has actually been really good to us so I hope this doesn't sound like I'm having a go. I feel though that he is sometimes thrown into the deep end.

The last couple of times we have played, and this is the same for the other bands, people say to me 'you guys were really good but the sound was really muddy. Couldn't make out the instruments from each other and the vocals were almost non existant'.

Now don't get me wrong. I love playing gigs and am not looking to alienate myself. However, when we have bands coming maybe for the first time to Aberdeen are they really going to be impressed with this enough to want to travel the extra miles it takes to come to Aberdeen?

Now I've heard that the equipment isn't the best to work with etc. but surely if a place like Drummonds is advertising itself as a venue it must have sufficient resources to be able to compete with other rival venues. Unless its just a pub that plays music, in which case why put on touring bands?

Also there is an issue with security of equipment. I've heard bands being told 'If you want to leave equipment then you can leave it onstage but we won't take responsibility for it'. Now obviously this has something to do with insurance etc. But if there is a lockable room downstairs then why is the stage being offered and not this. Surely this lends itself to covering against loss or theft better than an open stage area?

Another gripe I have is the problem with the local drunks. Now I understand Drummonds is positioned at the front of a rather busy pub street and therefor your going to have a couple people rather worse for ware wander in. However, increasingly I find some drunk offshore type stumbling about Drummonds making people feel generally uneasy. If this was Espionage or Priory they would be chucked out on their arse. Why do the doorstaff at Drummonds then put up with it? maybe its because they're up at the door and can't see it. But then surely its the role of the barstaff to point out these people to the bouncer. unless they don't want the hassle, but for the sake of making the environment a little bit more enjoyable I think it's necessary. The final straw was at the last gig I attended when some burberry clad mink thought it would be ok to wander onto the stage and attempt to grab the mic from the touring band. What an embarassment, and the guy wasn't even asked to leave, just ushered back to the bar. If that was warehouse they would be out!! So why not Drummonds?

My feeling is that Drummonds have taken for granted the fact that they can use bands to draw people into the bar. And instead of, like other venues, providing a venue for bands that people attend to see its run as a place for people to drink and the fact that bands come and play is a bonus.

So what are other bands thoughts on this issue? Hopefully I'm not the only person who feels a little let down.

mmm, despite avoiding this on the basis that I work there, I have given in!

Firstly with regards professionalism at Drummonds, I would say Hen & all staff do their best to make gigs run smoothly especially for outside promoters. Drummonds and Tunnels are the cheapest places to hire and in my opinion (as a promoter, not bar manager) are the best for the size of gigs they do. Would far rather use them than Snafu, Warehouse for both cost and general running of shows.

There is pretty much always a running order for gigs organised by Hen, which Calum generally always gets, unfortuantely a lot of time the first band due to soundcheck is late or whatever and that of course leaves Calum in the shit through no fault of his own.

With regards the sound "being awful" - I would point you towards any touring band who always sound great due to the fact that they also have a good set up and know what they are doing sound wise too. I dont mean this against your band in particular, but again some local bands turn up not having a clue what levels they want or sometimes not even how to tune a guitar. That will ineviatbly lead to shit sound regardless of what Calum or any other sound engineer does. The bands who know what they are doing/want and are generally professional always manage to sound good - i.e Deportees.

Having dealt with hundreds of touring bands, they are pretty impressed by the sound they get in Drummonds compared to both Tunnels and a lot of the venues they have played on tour.

The soundcheck issue is one that does cause problems. We cannot make noise until 6pm weekdays/8pm Thursdays due to the shops upstairs so that does indeed leave very little time at 6 for Calum to set up the stage and soundcheck on time. There is very little we can do about that to be honest and we all know its not ideal.

On the note of leaving equipment, we dont allow it to be left downstairs a) because the kitchen, new bar area is down there and storage is mainly for that now and b) because we end up with shitloads of unclaimed stuff after a few weeks which is not ours and there is no room for. Most venues Ive been at on tours are strictly against leaving equipment over night so at least we allow it to be left on stage where at least staff and door staff can monitor it.

Whilst I may sound like Im just defending the place because I work there, I really do mean this from that side and from my promoter side.

The last point re the undesirable elements in the bar is possibly fair. As bar manager I hate neds etc as much as the next man, to the point I actually want to kill them. I dont want them in the pub or in fact anywhere near the pub. I personally try very hard, as do all the staff who work there, to stop these people. Unfortunately you cant just stop someone coming into the bar because they look "hard" or that they MIGHT cause trouble. There is no security until 11pm midweek, however I do not tolerate excessively drunk people or any behaviour that will ruin anyone elses night. I feel very strongly that anyone being a cunt should be thrown out. I am aware that its not always the case. In a busy bar, people will sneak through/get their more normal mate to buy them a drink etc but I assure you that we will all do whatever we can if alerted to a situation.

The guy that went on stage and stole the mic was definitely ejected from the premises (I have the bruises to prove it) as is anyone who goes on the stage in that manner.

Phew, that wasnt meant to sound like a rant. Just putting our side out there!

Oh and I dont think Priory is a great example of a place that wouldnt tolerate knobs.

[rcalder82]

yas.

but i would say some equipment could be updated

But then having equipment at all is a bonus - backline is not provided in most venues. As far as I know Lemon Tree dont have, Snafu didnt the last time I used it and on organising tours its just a general pain in the arse having to talk to all bands before hand to sort out full backline...and thats every venue Ive toured at outside Aberdeen.

Think people here take for granted that we dont have to provide backline at all. We are pretty lucky to be honest and the simple answer would be, if you dont like the drumkit, take your own. I dont mean that in a bitchy way by any means.

[rcalder82]

Are there any venues in aberdeen that give you a rider? Not saying it's a flaw if they don't, just curious, some guy came through my checkout a saturday or two ago, bought heaps of booze, heaps of junk food, fruit and just a load of stuff. when i was chatting to him he said it was the rider for Hadouken playing at warehouse, they got all the worst for you, best to eat food and drink we had in Morrisons for free from their promoters. Need to be raking it in if they're giving them 150 odd of food and drink for free.

Best i've ever heard of was a venue down in england that gave you a crate of beer when you play.

Its all relative. Locals dont get anything for their gigs as a basic rule, touring bands depends on what they ask for/what they deserve and some sort of balance being worked out between that.

Some riders I get through with AGP are mental. As in it almost doubles the bands fee. In that case that wont be happening. And in most cases said band turns up, doesnt care and in some instances dont know anything about whatever demands they have supposedly made through their agent/manager. I would say beers/waters/snacks/fruit and a decent meal is acceptable in most cases for touring bands, but again if it was a sell out kind of show, its nice to be nice so they dont think youre a dick and never come back.

On the other hand for someone like Hadouken who probably sold out Warehouse(?) that seems normal. Lets face it they'll be making you thousands of pound profit by selling out the venue, its not going to kill you to spend 150 on food for them.

[aekido]

It's a bit like when I started designing...

Start off doing freebies, get your name out there, get noticed, get people wanting to hear you, then once you've a base to stand on, charge. No point charging, or expecting money straight off if no ones really heard of you

[Ronz]

Lemon Tree give you freee beer and snacks...it's cool8-)

Ronz

Its all relative. Locals dont get anything for their gigs as a basic rule, touring bands depends on what they ask for/what they deserve and some sort of balance being worked out between that.

Some riders I get through with AGP are mental. As in it almost doubles the bands fee. In that case that wont be happening. And in most cases said band turns up, doesnt care and in some instances dont know anything about whatever demands they have supposedly made through their agent/manager. I would say beers/waters/snacks/fruit and a decent meal is acceptable in most cases for touring bands, but again if it was a sell out kind of show, its nice to be nice so they dont think youre a dick and never come back.

On the other hand for someone like Hadouken who probably sold out Warehouse(?) that seems normal. Lets face it they'll be making you thousands of pound profit by selling out the venue, its not going to kill you to spend 150 on food for them.

[rcalder82]

Lemon Tree give you freee beer and snacks...it's cool8-)

Ronz

Yeah I know, was talking about what Tunnels and Drummonds generally do in terms of rider, but they will try to pay bands a share of door money in most cases.

[Alan Cynic]

We once got a crate of beer in the Tunnels (think it was supporting Malcolm Middleton). It wasn't a good thing really

[ben_1903]

I hold my hands up to having done that a couple of times with the first couple of gigs I put on. Thinking it would be far easier to get enough people through the door to make it work for everyone.

From a band point of view I can totally see why that would piss you off. I did always offer to pay the bands out of my own pocket (having already used my own money to pay the headline band, having not cleared enough on the door to even cover that!!), but luckily it was guys I knew, and they understood and didn't take cash off me.

I lost a shitload of cash promoting last year.

I didn't quite grasp how much effort is required to promote gigs and make them a success until I actually jumped in head first.

Promoters get a shit load of stick from people in bands all the time (I used to do that too), but it's pretty unfair most of the time. That goes back to the point about criticising places like Tunnels and Drummonds too much. Bands in Aberdeen should appreciate places like this, and there are a fair few promoters in Aberdeen who always have the best intentions of the bands in mind (i.e. I felt totally shit not paying those bands, and would have paid them out of my own money - some of the gigs I put on and lost money on, there was a fee agreed in advance, and I always paid it regardless of losing my own money).

Nice ballanced post there. I agree, as someone who both plays in a band and puts on gigs occasionally.