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problems for unsigned bands


ribena89

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I think if a band or artist is genuinely willing to put in the work and get themselves actively recording and releasing and hitting the road to tour on a semi-regular basis to gain an audience, then they will get noticed and opportunities will arise. The level of opportunities will usually depend on how good they actually are, I guess.

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I would echo this. If you build it they will come!

First and foremost you need to put in the work in all required areas - writing, practicing, recording, releasing, booking, touring and promoting.

Potential problems:

1. Doing all this with a full time job although if you are serious then you should be able to balance it.

2. Money. It costs to record, release and tour.

3. Your main problem if you are from Wick is obviously location and travel. If you happened to live in Greater Manchester for example then you could easily go and play a gig every night or two in a different place in the surrounding area.

Given the above my suggestions for an entrepreneurial venture to help bands would be to start a company who finds work for bands on a part time or flexible full time basis, pays for all the things that they need and either relocates them or drives them around everywhere. It doesn't take a genius to figure out how that would go down in from of the Dragons!

If you are talking about getting a major record deal then your barriers to entry are: not being good enough, being good enough but not right for the current fashion, being unlucky.....

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Guest Tam o' Shantie

There are no problems for 'unsigned' bands unless 'unsigned' bands fault their situation by asking questions like 'why are we not signed?'

In my experience, living in Aberdeen doesn't really make you more appealing to a label exec in a suit than living in Forres would. To be successful you need to be very good, and preferably, have rich parents/some other means of surviving and touring without a job/responsibility to bog you down.

Speaking as someone who spent 7+ years of his life trying to make something of a band that I had a lot of faith in, which ultimately imploded with barely a handful of notable achievements to our name, I can tell you that if I could do it all over again, I would just chill out and get on with the music, maan. It really is such a cliche but it's the most important thing, and stressing about your lack of success is just going to ruin it for you. If you keep at it and never stop, you will gain more fans, it's just the facts.

At 24, I am now a 'reborn' musician and have started a vinyl record label with one of my best friends. I'm preparing to re-enter the world of music in so many ways and it's really exciting. Major labels and big deals are pointless, in this day and age you can do it all yourself and make a really serious output if you spend a bit of money and LEARN! My goal now is to build a community and fanbase around all the music around me that is inspiring. From my own tunes to local bands' music, the great records that are coming out all around the globe, the cutting edge and the old skool...there is just so much fucking great music out there to get excited about. So why worry about financial gain/'getting signed'?

PS I took a pill before writing this post.

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Guest Gladstone
I think if a band or artist is genuinely willing to put in the work and get themselves actively recording and releasing and hitting the road to tour on a semi-regular basis to gain an audience, then they will get noticed and opportunities will arise. The level of opportunities will usually depend on how good they actually are, I guess.

There are some hard-working bands in Aberdeen who are putting in the work and they are slowly but surely getting some recognition and more exposure elsewhere, such as Indian Red Lopez, Cast of the Capital and, more notably, Copy Haho. Frankly, it's good to see and shows that if you take a proactive approach, then there aren't too many walls preventing you from achieving something.

Phil hits the nail on the head there. I'll explain with two examples:

Firstly, there's The Underkills (my band). We are without doubt the best band in the world ever. If talent and good songs was all you needed, we'd have overtaken the likes of U2, Foo Fighters, Oasis, God etc in the massively famous and popular stakes. But that's not all you need, you need to get your arse out there, tour the country, record your songs, release the songs, sell CDs at gigs etc. and keep going back, so that more and more people are exposed to your music. What The Underkills have done, is played a shitload of gigs in Aberdeen, some to about 3 people, some to a couple of hundred (not very often), with a few really good support slots, and a handful of gigs in Glasgow, Edinburgh and Dundee (not to mention New Deer, Yas Min), and played a couple of festival slots.

Then take the second example, Indian Red Lopez, who although a very good band, just aren't in the same league as The Underkills if we're all honest with ourselves. What they've done in the past year is played in loads of different places, including France and Holland, which is all really cool. They're getting themselves noticed through good old fashioned hard work, and I predict will conquer the world by 2011.

EDIT: I forgot the smiley ;)

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I think it's literally ALL about who you know or can get to know.

Truth. I've seen some fucking shitty bands score great gigs and support slots, or have their records put out by recognised people, all because of who they are able to be pally with.

If you want to 'make it', You need to have at least one person in your band who has got networking credentials. Even if he's insufferable piss who can't even hum a tune. If he knows folk, he's in.

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There is a massive element of "who you know" involved. When I was in Baille & The Fault, we got the opening slots on three dates of Idlewild's Greatest Hits tour (including the Barras!) because Mike had the balls to go up to Dave McGeechan (spelling?) at DF and straight out ask for them. If McGeechan hadn't known Mike, he would have been laughed out of Tuts. As it was, he said yes.

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Well, it has to be said that if you are gagging for any half decent opportunities for exposure in Scotland, a lot of peeps think cultivating a relationship with DF should probably be high up on your list.

However, its not a guarantee of success. Policechief were DF favourites for a few years and got a lot of work as a result, but it didn't amount to much.

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As someone who occasionally networks and who is occasionally networked let me offer a definition of networking for those who are unsure - 'asking' and 'not being a cunt'.

For example things you can ask when networking are:

can I play your gig?

can I have that support spot?

can you play my song on the radio?

can I put a gig on here?

can I send you my demo tape?

You will be amazed how many promoters, DJs, bar owners and others will say yes to you.

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Guest Gladstone
I dunno. I know some great people in great bands, and I play some seriously pish gigs.

Aye, but the fact that you have absolutely zero talent is a massive hurdle for you, init?

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Most of these comments are very accurate. Hard work and good music or even just music better than the average should gain you some degree of success.

I also think that now is the time for innovative approaches to marketing your music. On the grand scale, despite the brave face the music industry puts on trying to convince us that everyone is still raking it in, the landscape is changing much more in favour of those who are willing to do it themselves. Think a bit more creatively about how to progress your music, create something about your group/music that is different. Get that idea and actually do something about it rather than talking about maybe possibly doing it at some point. There is no excuse for not following ideas through or at least making a start immediately.

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Lots of musicians Ive spoken to about this say they scared of missing that one big opportunity

I dont believe that! There are & will be hundreds of opportunities, open to everyone, and they all lead to somewhere. Whether its just along the road to some showcased Drummonds gig, some bigger & better venue down south or even a record deal. Every chance is worth perusing but its not the end of the world if you miss out on it.

There is no such thing as being in the wrong place at the wrong time, so I believe anyway. Just as long as you dont back at the same time again!

Aberdeen is small & there is not much of an open music/arts scene. Its all kinda underground & in some cases fairly cliquey.

The problem is there are many artists out there who would sell their soul for fame & glory, though their just selling it to the wrong people.

New bands set off with big intentions following some ideological dream but they always seem to crash after the first few hurdles. Purely because they dont know what to expect. Perseverance is an essential criterion.

There is no official way of trying to get noticed.

True!

But its not like you can go & see your local careers advisor about it. The music industry is a whole different kettle of fish.

There are people out there who are willing to help new bands find their feet, like Steve Milnes Dirty Harts Club & Callum Crightons Exposure for instance plus countless other local promoters & venues. Getting a gig isnt difficult its just who you play to thats the problem.

Once a band/artist has established themselves in the scene. Its down to them to network & promote themselves. Easier said than done like, but you cant get everyone to wipe your arse all the time!

Ive just recently started up a new band & after a fairy in-depth conversation with my singer I told her, subjectively, that at some point in the (not so near) future, if everything goes well, we would need to look at the possibilities of moving elsewhere as Aberdeen does have its limitations. Next week she tells me shes been looking for jobs in Glasgow. WTF!

One Step at a time. Dont get ahead of yourself. Make friends with the right people, but dont sell out & from a purely business perspective Make sure you have a quality product that you can market well.

But most of all make sure you'r in it for the right reasons...

P.S. Sorry for elongated essay, hope this helps :cheers:

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Out of interest, how did coming from a rural part of Scotland make it more difficult to be a musician?

Lower expectations.

Playing to a crowd of people only see two or three local bands a month,

opposed to playing to a crowd that can see live music pretty much every night,

All it means is you have to play way better and be far more impressive to be remembered.

I was in awe when my old band first started coming through from Inverness to play in aberdeen at how tight all these local unsigned bands at the time were.

Now with Grader it just comes with the territory,

I think it's literally ALL about who you know or can get to know.

Truth.

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I was in awe when my old band first started coming through from Inverness to play in aberdeen at how tight all these local unsigned bands at the time were.

Now with Grader it just comes with the territory,

I agree with this. I grew up playing in bands in Pontefract, which certainly did have quite an active local scene for such a small town. But when you managed to hop onto a bill 12 miles down the M62, in Leeds, you'd realise the gulf between the two, and how you really needed to shape up if you were to really get anywhere, even on a local circuit. It was difficult to get onto the Leeds scene unless you were based there. Even if you were based in a local town of close proximity, it was hard, getting enough people there to see you, and getting on the right bill to play to enough people to make any sort of impression. So, I would agree that location plays a huge part. It wasn't until my friend moved to Leeds that the bands we were in were able to piggyback onto gigs, and get involved alot more.

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Ive just recently started up a new band & after a fairy in-depth conversation with my singer I told her, subjectively, that at some point in the (not so near) future, if everything goes well, we would need to look at the possibilities of moving elsewhere as Aberdeen does have its limitations. Next week she tells me shes been looking for jobs in Glasgow. WTF!

I'm not sure you necessarily need to do this; Once you're down here, it can very quickly be apparent what you're up against. Glasgow is saturated with bands. I work with a guy (his name is oddly enough the same as one of the main characters from 2001) who's band decamped en masse from Aberdeen to Glasgow. I remember him saying one day that he found it quite daunting as he hadn't realised just how many people there were in Glasgow who were in bands. and this guy's band were doing alright as these things go.

Glasgow is also saturated with venues; most are open seven nights a week and generally have bills of 3-5 bands. So, all you have is multiple venues fighting for the same gigging crowd. And the gigging crowd down here is not that great in terms of numbers, even on a Friday/Saturday night. There is no passing trade to speak of, except for maybe Box, and people seem to have mixed feelings about the place.

I think if you spend herds of money on promotion (cannot emphasise that enough) and as little as possible on recording then you can raise things above a few piss poor gigs in the city centre that nobody aside from the coachload you organised from up the road turned up to and get people genuinely interested in what you're up to. Then you'd be able to stay in Aberdeen and hopefully bend circumstances to a situation of your own choosing. All that said, if you're just fancying a change from Aberdeen, then yeah, Glasgow is a top place to live.

It's funny, some people in Aberdeen think you have to go to Glasgow, and some in Glasgow think you have to go to London. I think you don't need to do either.

Copy Haho seem to rub along alright. They don't even live in Aberdeen AFAIK.

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Ive just recently started up a new band & after a fairy in-depth conversation with my singer I told her, subjectively, that at some point in the (not so near) future, if everything goes well, we would need to look at the possibilities of moving elsewhere as Aberdeen does have its limitations. Next week she tells me shes been looking for jobs in Glasgow. WTF!

I Disagree, i believe you can do fine from your home town,

Were doing well enough in glasgow due to playing the right show, avoiding the rockers shows and support slots with bands that wont pull crowds.

Our last show in glasgow was with This is colour, By my hands, Departures and Grader, Perfect bill that we could fit on with bands with a good pull, which will only benefit us.

I think if you avoid over saturation of a city with average pulling shows, and only play shows you know will be relatively busy, then you'll do fine.

i would never travel out of town to play first on a show that you didnt know was going to be busy, its just a waste of time, money and effort,

where as if you wait to get on a good bill with a good amount of people, it doesn't matter if they like you straight away, because if you keep playing shows like that, eventually someone will,

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I Disagree, i believe you can do fine from your home town,

Were doing well enough in glasgow due to playing the right show, avoiding the rockers shows and support slots with bands that wont pull crowds.

Our last show in glasgow was with This is colour, By my hands, Departures and Grader, Perfect bill that we could fit on with bands with a good pull, which will only benefit us.

I think if you avoid over saturation of a city with average pulling shows, and only play shows you know will be relatively busy, then you'll do fine.

i would never travel out of town to play first on a show that you didnt know was going to be busy, its just a waste of time, money and effort,

where as if you wait to get on a good bill with a good amount of people, it doesn't matter if they like you straight away, because if you keep playing shows like that, eventually someone will,

So how do you manage to work out if a show is going to be busy, then? It's not really as easy as that.

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Guest Gladstone
Yes, in that situation...

Seriously though, a good lineup or promoter doesn't mean a gig is going to be busy. Played busy gigs with shite bands and a shite promoter, played dead gigs with ace bands and ace promoters.

There's really no rhyme nor reason to this it seems.

I've put on a few gigs with bands that are really really good from out of town, but it's very difficult to get people to come down to say The Tunnels on a Tuesday night to see a band they've never heard of, no matter how good you tell them the band is.

There are so many other factors to take into account as well. For example, I put on Kid Canaveral, Kartta and Stanley (3 brilliant bands) at Snafu last year on a Saturday early evening gig last year. I was banking on it being very busy as Scotland were playing Holland that day. However, it transpired that the football kicked off at 7.30pm and clashed with the gig (Saturday games are NEVER at that time, so I just hadn't even considered there being a clash), and it totally killed the crowd. Still a decent number of folk there, but not for a Saturday gig, that cost a bit of cash.

Steven Milne once gave me a piece of sound advice. If you walk out on stage and there's hardly anyone there, you have to play better, and work harder to get the people there on your side. It's difficult, because it's much easier to get up for a gig when there's a decent, responsive crowd to bounce off, but he speaks the truth. No matter how many people are at a gig, what you have to do if you're going to build up any sort of fanbase is play really fucking well. That goes for gigs in your hometown or out of town.

We built up a small fanbase when we gigged and gigged and gigged in 2007 - some gigs didn't feel massively worth it because you'd be playing at the Tunnels on a Wednesday night to about 20 people, but it's one of these things - when you start out, you need to play a lot of gigs for the practice (i.e. practice at playing live shows, not just practising and getting your songs right - being onstage is a whole different ball game to the comfort of a practice studio) - the more you play, the better / tighter you get. By early 2008 our crowd started to dwindle though - I think the main reason was lack of new material. We'd played so many gigs, to probably the same 150-200 people (not all at once mind you!), with roughly the same set, that they just stopped coming. No matter how well you play the songs, if there's nothing different, why would they bother giving up their midweek evenings to rock up at the Tunnels etc etc.

So - yeah - as pretty much everyone else has said - hard work is a major factor. I don't think you need to move away from Aberdeen to succeed. On the grand scale of things, what proportion of bands in Glasgow "make it"? Not many in comparison to the number of bands there are in Glasgow. Same goes for London (/any other city in the UK). You may think there are loads of bands coming out of Glasgow / London / Manchester etc all the time, but when you think of how big these places are in comparison to Aberdeen, it's not surprising. Admittedly nobody in Aberdeen has really "made it" for as long as I can remember, but that's no different to other smaller cities. It doesn't mean that you can't make it - if you go about your business the right way, and keep plugging away, you'll have as much chance as if you moved to Glasgow.

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Wise words man, epecially about the Glasgow / Manchester thing, its easy to do the old "im gonna take this to the big shhhmoke" the problems start when you find out - theres 10,000 bands - doing it 10,000 times better than you, play all the gigs you can, wherever you can! evetually you'll get someone to listen, and if not then maybe try something else. Aberdeens a good place to start, there always somewhere to play..and sometimes you get paid!

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